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Imagemaster
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p.2 #1 · from a photograph to an image


RustyBug wrote:
It equals photograph + AI ... which, is still an image.


Many of the greatest and most popular wildlife artists created paintings that looked like reality or photographs.

Many years ago I marketed limited edition prints by Robert Bateman, Carl Brenders, Ron Parker, John Seerey-Lester, George Catlin, etc.

The name of my business was Imagemaster because I was selling images painted by master artists.

Images can be created with any media the artist wishes to use: photography, oil paints, watercolors, pencil, pen & ink, chalk, computers, AI, or any other material.



Jan 07, 2026 at 01:17 PM
chez
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p.2 #2 · from a photograph to an image


Imagemaster wrote:
Nobody appointed you as Moderator. Any member can post comparison images on any forum they want. I guess you think members can only post their B&W images on the B&W Forum. Are you also going to tell members they can't post AI manipulated images on the Photo Critique Forum? It is up to Fred to decide where AI images can be posted.


Sure…put your AI art into the critique forum as well…but like I said, don’t pollute the other image display boards with AI manipulation. If AI is what cranks you, there are plenty other media sights that cater to it…let’s hang onto photography here.



Jan 07, 2026 at 01:32 PM
jwpstl
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p.2 #3 · from a photograph to an image


Imagemaster wrote:

Images can be created with any media the artist wishes to use: photography, oil paints, watercolors, pencil, pen & ink, chalk, computers, AI, or any other material.


A person who makes AI images is not an artist. At best they can be an art director because they described and directed what they wanted but an artist creates which involves more than telling a computer what to do.



Jan 07, 2026 at 01:53 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #4 · from a photograph to an image


spinosaurus wrote:
Lots of thoughtful responses here for sure. I think back to what attracted me to photography and it was seeing Ansel Adams prints in person in Yosemite and being amazed at the images. He had no digital manipulation although he did have very complex developing, and enlarging “recipes” which he wrote down to be able to reproduce the print or tweak it, but had no ability to actually manipulate the image. It meant he wrote down notes to keep track of lighting, moon and sun positioning according to the calendar etc. He was certainly someone I thought would be a
...Show more

Ansel "manipulated" his prints as much or more than the typical photographer today who uses digital media.

One of his most famous Sierra photographs is "Winter Sunrise, Sierra Nevada, from Lone Pine." The black (because he made it black in post) hill in the middle ground features the large white letters "LP," put there by the students at the local Lone Pine high school. He burned down the letters dramatically in film post-production to essentially make them invisible, though they are visible in some prints. (You can read more about it here, among other places.)

Perhaps his most famous print is "Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico." This photograph was radically manipulated to produce the print with which we are familiar. The original negative has very low contrast and is largely intermediate gray tones, not the stark blacks and whites of the print. Adams burned the sky WAY down from the original, in the process "disappearing" a bunch of clouds that were in the upper sky. As he did this he dodged the heck out of the famous band of "white" (formerly gray) clouds on the horizon, and he darkened the foreground a great deal. (You can see a before and after example here.)

Another well-known Adams print is "Mount McKinley and Wonder Lake, Denali National Park, Alaska." Over the years he continuously revised his interpretation of this print. (He actually did that with a lot of his prints, sometimes radically altering them.) Eventually he made it much more stark, with more areas that were extremely white or extremely dark, increasing the viewers focus on the graphical quality of the large areas in the scene more than on small details. (Years ago I saw an exhibit at a museum in Anchorage that tracked the evolution and reinterpretation of this print over time.)

This progressive increase in contrast as he printed over the years was widespread. I once saw another fascinating show that featured his very early prints, which were often relatively soft and of low contrast and printed on soft surface papers. (I believe at least some of these were from the so-called “Parmelian” prints series.)

His manipulations went beyond the darkroom printing work. For example, with some darker subjects (or certain high dynamic range situations) he would pre-expose negatives to a bit of uniform light in order otherwise insure some density in the negative even in the areas of darkness in the subject. Those notes you mentioned were often to remind him of how to process the negatives to deal with highlights, shadows, and dynamic range.

Adams was not at all shy about copping to his reliance on post production. In fact, he wrote several books about his techniques. (To paraphrase him: The negative is the score and the print is the performance. If you understand his musical background, that has a very specific meaning.)

From what I know (from personal conversations with some of his students/assistants and from reading) he would likely have been enthusiastic about the control that digital photography media give to us. (One of his proteges who is a friend even refers to some of the curves adjustments that we often use today as "the thing Ansel wasn't able to do," with the clear implication that he would have if he could have.)

Would he have actually added elements to construct a scene that did not exist? Not sure, For that you might want to investigate the highly-regarded work of Jerry Uelsmann...

The idea that there are bright, clear lines between something called "photography" and something called "images" isn't supported by how actual photography has worked for nearly 200 years. We each come to our own personal accommodation with this reality.

One wildlife photographer that I "know" (third hand via a photographer friend who shoots with them) wins all kinds of important wildlife photography awards... and as a standard practice adds backgrounds to their remarkable photographs of birds. (I'm not mentioning a name here.)

Might as well inject a bit of photography history into this train wreck of a thread... ;-)

Edited on Jan 07, 2026 at 04:22 PM · View previous versions



Jan 07, 2026 at 02:16 PM
Imagemaster
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p.2 #5 · from a photograph to an image


jwpstl wrote:
A person who makes AI images is not an artist. At best they can be an art director because they described and directed what they wanted but an artist creates which involves more than telling a computer what to do.


If you say so.

Artists are increasingly utilizing AI as a collaborative tool to enhance, rather than replace, their creative process, ranging from generating visual references and drafting music compositions to restoring audio. Key applications include using tools like Midjourney for ideation, training custom AI models on personal datasets, and accelerating production workflows. While offering new creative possibilities, this integration has spurred significant debates regarding copyright, ethical use, and the definition of human authorship in art.



Jan 07, 2026 at 02:22 PM
Imagemaster
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p.2 #6 · from a photograph to an image


chez wrote:
Sure…put your AI art into the critique forum as well…but like I said, don’t pollute the other image display boards with AI manipulation. If AI is what cranks you, there are plenty other media sights that cater to it…let’s hang onto photography here.


Like I said, don't tell other members what to do, nor tell them they have to agree or conform to your definition of Photography.

You do have the option of not lingering on any posting that has AI content, don't you? You certainly have to the time to linger on this polluted thread.



Jan 07, 2026 at 02:30 PM
bwcolor
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p.2 #7 · from a photograph to an image


Altering an image is part of creating the ultimate look of an image. That said, I would oppose a sports photographer manipulating an image to make it look like a foul took place when, in fact, it did not. If you want to discuss keeping the photographic process pure, would we need to stop using artificial flash, or prohibit the myriad of internal processes within a camera that allows for specific exposure and focusing modes? Having said this, it is clear that there are many potential downsides to the new AI age. It is increasingly difficult to trust information provided online, or in print and I didn’t trust most of it before AI.


Jan 07, 2026 at 03:13 PM
ruthenium
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p.2 #8 · from a photograph to an image


gdanmitchell wrote:
Ansel "manipulated" his prints as much or more than the typical photographer today who uses digital media.

One of his most famous Sierra photographs is "Winter Sunrise, Sierra Nevada, from Lone Pine." The black (because he made it black in post) hill in the middle ground features the large white letters "LP," put there by the students at the local Lone Pine high school. He burned down the letters dramatically in film post-production to essentially make them invisible, though they are visible in some prints. (You can read more about it here, among other places.)

Perhaps his most famous print is "Moonrise,
...Show more

Dan, thank you for the insightful and interesting story!
This aligns with my understanding of photography art as a process of realizing an inner personal vision of the photographer.

Your mention of an award-winning photographer who (apparently) presented bird pictures with replaced backgrounds brings back the vague suspicion that I have - that this form of image manipulation might be more likely encountered in the work of bird and wild-life photographers. I might be wrong, but wouldn't be surprised if major content replacements (such the entire background or sky replacements) are less common among street and landscape photographers. I might be wrong, of course, but I still suspect that average bird pictures (that is 99% of all bird pictures taken in general) are not particularly interesting-looking, especially when presented in bulk, to outsiders. How many photos of eagles, owls, hummingbirds, etc. one is willing to see when shown one after another? My limit is rather short - I can tolerate 2-3, certainly no more that 5. Thus, there might be a strong incentive to improve the visual effects by adding a striking background or an impressive vivid colorful sky to compensate for the repetitive nature of the "central" subject..



Jan 07, 2026 at 03:34 PM
Imagemaster
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p.2 #9 · from a photograph to an image


bwcolor wrote:
Altering an image is part of creating the ultimate look of an image.


Which is the point of my title from a photograph to an image. It is a fact that has been happening, is happening, and will continue to happen. Most anyone can do it for better or worse. Look at cameras that have been altering the RAW images in-camera to whatever 'style' of jpeg the owners wish their cameras to spit out. 99.9% of people viewing those jpegs have no idea that the initial image captured was altered in the camera.

That said, I would oppose a sports photographer manipulating an image to make it look like a foul took place when, in fact, it did not. If you want to discuss keeping the photographic process pure, would we need to stop using artificial flash, or prohibit the myriad of internal processes within a camera that allows for specific exposure and focusing modes? Having said this, it is clear that there are many potential downsides to the new AI age. It is increasingly difficult to trust information provided online, or in print and I didn’t trust most of it before AI.

Most technological advances also have negative side-effects. Look at the Internet. You certainly can't trust it.



Jan 07, 2026 at 05:55 PM
Imagemaster
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p.2 #10 · from a photograph to an image


ruthenium wrote:
Your mention of an award-winning photographer who (apparently) presented bird pictures with replaced backgrounds brings back the vague suspicion that I have - that this form of image manipulation might be more likely encountered in the work of bird and wild-life photographers.


It has been used in all types of photography for over a hundred years. Portrait photographers set up physical backgrounds in their studios BEFORE taking their images. Ever been to a few movies? Make-believe backgrounds have been used since the 1800's.

Look at the AI used in the movie 'Avatar: The Way of Water'. The AI effects are mind-boggling, but they were so prolific that I found much of the movie boring from AI overload.




Jan 07, 2026 at 06:10 PM
 


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p.2 #11 · from a photograph to an image


At this time I have never used AI, but that doesn’t mean I never will. I just have this one question. Can a different photographer using AI produce this very same background for a different bird? Wondering if at some point we will see different animals with the same background.


Jan 07, 2026 at 06:32 PM
chez
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p.2 #12 · from a photograph to an image


grandmas wrote:
At this time I have never used AI, but that doesn’t mean I never will. I just have this one question. Can a different photographer using AI produce this very same background for a different bird? Wondering if at some point we will see different animals with the same background.


We are already seeing animals and backgrounds together that never really existed all created sitting at your computer. This is where AI is plowing towards. Who needs to go out and put in the time to get their one great shot when you can create that same image sitting at home sipping on some fine wine and letting AI do the work for you. You can then proudly hang that AI generated print onto your walls...or you can just go to Ikea and buy a print to hang on the wall.

None of this is photography.



Jan 07, 2026 at 07:18 PM
Imagemaster
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p.2 #13 · from a photograph to an image


grandmas wrote:
At this time I have never used AI, but that doesn’t mean I never will. I just have this one question. Can a different photographer using AI produce this very same background for a different bird? Wondering if at some point we will see different animals with the same background.


Sure, they can produce the very same background for different birds, but I don't know why they would. You can still go out and take your photos and do whatever you want to with them. AI can't reproduce those enjoyable experiences you had, nor can AI duplicate what you experienced. AI can duplicate your images only if it has your original images to copy.

You can call the end results Photography, Photo Art, Digital Art, Imagery, or whatever you want. Some photographers just can't accept photos that may look a lot better regardless of what degree of post-processing was used. Could be they are just jealous that many people find those images more interesting and enjoyable to look at.

Just ignore their boring criticism, take the photos you want, and do whatever you want to with them.



Jan 07, 2026 at 07:31 PM
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p.2 #14 · from a photograph to an image


Imagemaster wrote:
Sure, they can produce the very same background for different birds, but I don't know why they would..


So it is not like you flip through backgrounds and pick one that may be very popular, that others may also be using. In other words you are suggesting that the photographer does have some individual input.




Jan 07, 2026 at 07:45 PM
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p.2 #15 · from a photograph to an image


grandmas wrote:
So it is not like you flip through backgrounds and pick one that may be very popular, that others may also be using. In other words you are suggesting that the photographer does have some individual input.


Yes, how many different choices you have will depend on the software you are using.

e.g. in Photoshop you have 'Sky Replacement'. It will show you probably 100+ different choices you can scroll through. Click on the one you want and it automatically replaces your existing sky with the AI one.

You can of course use other software such as Topaz to apply different effects to your images.

e.g.







Jan 07, 2026 at 07:58 PM
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p.2 #16 · from a photograph to an image


Imagemaster wrote:
Yes, how many different choices you have will depend on the software you are using.

e.g. in Photoshop you have 'Sky Replacement'. It will show you probably 100+ different choices you can scroll through. Click on the one you want and it automatically replaces your existing sky with the AI one.

You can of course use other software such as Topaz to apply different effects to your images.

e.g.


Thanks for explaining!



Jan 07, 2026 at 08:26 PM
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p.2 #17 · from a photograph to an image


Imagemaster wrote:
You can call the end results Photography, Photo Art, Digital Art, Imagery, or whatever you want.


Therein lies the convolution ... calling something generated by a language based algorithm a photograph ... defies the namesake of the process that was used, for creating the image. Claiming that folks should just call it whatever they want is fine, just perpetuates the convolution.

The image (generic) is the final outcome. The process(es) are specific wrt to the how. Just call it like it is ... pretty simple, imo.

What process(es) did you use? It's all fair game, just don't call sitting at a computer and typing in a request for an algorithm to generate a blue sky a photograph. If it wasn't made by light being collected and cast upon a capture media, then the light was not drawn onto the capture media. Thus, it was not a photo (light) graph (drawn).

You want to play around with AI and make images, sure go for it. You want to mix and match it with photography, sure go for it. Just don't expect all folks to subscribe to the notion that AI = Photograph. I'd like to think that most folks that apply a modicum of logic to the etymology / denotative definition of photography can readily understand that the process of utiilizing AI is not the same as the process of photography (by definition and function) ... even if both are viable tools for image creation.

The fact that digital photography and AI ... share a digital component ... still does not equate photograph = AI. "Digital" is an adjective of the capture media (vs. film) for photography (as the process) and as the adjective of the of the algorithm generation.


Digital algorithm generation does not equal light generated ... two different processes, even if the final result is digital > print for both, as a printed image. They share being a printed image (or a digital image) at that point, but AI generated process is NOT a photographic generated process, even if it is something that we DO to a deconstruct the photograph from its original creation, and supplant it with an algorithm generated process.


AI is NOT a Photograph ... by definition.


Again, pretty simple (assuming you know that a "photograph" is drawn with light), imo. AI enhanced photograph, AI augmented photograph, sure why not. But, AI being applied to a photograph ... should be recognized as an adjunct process to the photographic process. Again, imo.

That said ... Tony's title ... I think it's fair to say it started with a photograph, and ended up as an image (with some interim AI process applied en route). But, I'd not call the final image a photograph (and neither did Tony, in the title). To me, the final image (if we are to ascribe / describe it) is a mixed media, photograph, augmented through AI.




Jan 07, 2026 at 09:23 PM
Imagemaster
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p.2 #18 · from a photograph to an image


An image may not be a photograph, but a photograph is an image. Just like a painting is an image.

The whole world is becoming more convoluted and technology is one major cause. The human race just wants more of everything and this requires more and more power. The rapid expansion of artificial intelligence (AI) is leading to an unprecedented surge in demand for data centers, creating a significant challenge for existing power grids and reshaping the development of data infrastructure. More people on this planet means more food, power, homes, vehicles, infrastructures, and food will be needed. All of these are detrimental to all other species and are the major unnatural increase in global warming.

Someone should create a hosting site for images. Submit images created in any manner that can be shared, enjoyed, and discussed by those that appreciate the variety of images than be created by any means.



Jan 07, 2026 at 11:39 PM
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p.2 #19 · from a photograph to an image


A quick search can find a smattering of diverse facts showing the current scope of AI use. For instance:

Roughly 71% of images shared on social media globally were AI-generated.

An estimated 34 million new AI-generated images are created every day. Over 15 billion AI-generated images have been created since 2022 across various platforms.

As of May 2025, AI-generated images made up nearly half of the total portfolio on Adobe Stock

Due to the exponential growth in adoption, one AI expert predicted that 90% of all internet content could be AI-generated by sometime in 2025.

The quality of generated images is constantly improving. Currently, those who use AI tools can't determine whether an image is generated by a camera or AI roughly half the time.

AI is here regardless of whether anyone likes it. It has always been true that anyone can do anything they like with their images, but the huge proliferation of easily produced AI images has consequences and raises some questions.

My first reaction to any image I see is now is to wonder if what I'm seeing ever physically existed. I'm not sure if an animal lives in the shown environment, or if it's there because someone, or some AI server, thought it looked good there. It can be between difficult and impossible to tell, and it's a waste of time with no reward to investigate.

I personally see much less value in every image I view now. Any given image may have required years of effort by a talented and knowledgeable person along with a bunch of luck, or it may have taken a kid who doesn't own a camera a half hour to create on a computer. Looking at all images as only pretty pictures, with a value commensurate with prettiness, those created by the kid could easily be the most valuable.

I used to view lots of images online and in other venues, but I hardly bother now. I once went to see most new exhibits at the Museum of Australian Photography, around 15 minutes away, but I haven't gone for over a year now. I know those photographs are definitely not AI generated, unless they say so, but knowing nearly anyone could make something similar saps my enthusiasm. Again, pretty pictures are everywhere and less than dime a dozen. I can't imagine why anyone outside a given photographer's personal bubble would be keenly interested in their work. Sure, personal vision, interpretation, and all of that, but it all seems wiped away in the avalanche of countless billions of AI generated images.

Within one's personal bubble it's different, and basically unchanged. I still value my own images because they bring back memories of real experiences that belong only to me, and in some cases a few others who are within my personal bubble. I wouldn't expect anyone without those memories to value my photographs more than they'd value any other picture of comparable prettiness. I'm not naive enough to think my photos are prettier than AI generated images that are made for the sole and express purpose of being pretty.

Going slightly further, AI generated images and videos can obviously be used to manipulate public opinion and actions based on their content. I can easily see a day when we no longer know what is real. If you look at social media you'll see that day came long ago.

IMO

Dean



Jan 08, 2026 at 12:42 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #20 · from a photograph to an image


Imagemaster wrote:
An image may not be a photograph, but a photograph is an image. Just like a painting is an image.


+1 Yup.
Both are representational, created imagery.
Personally, I can't draw a stick man, with a ruler. So, I use a lens and a box.


Painting does not produce photographs. Drawing does not produce photographs. AI does not produce photographs ... anymore than painting or drawing produces photographs. But, AI does produce pictures (images), as do the other processes.


That said, I think that another element of (semantic) convolution is that AI can produce a picture (another generic term of product output, similar to image ... i.e. not process), and a photograph can produce a picture. Connotative association then has some folks making bunny hops that are inaccurate, where photograph > picture, thus picture = photograph.


Noting also, that the term "photograph" is the connotative contraction of "photographic process, created image" ... as a shorthand, if you will, when folks call a picture (created by a photographic process) a photograph. At which point the adjective of "photographic image" or "photographic picture" is used as a noun, sans the noun ... i.e. photograph.

Some people interchange picture vs. photograph, and thus (incorrectly) infer that AI = picture = photograph, thus AI = photographs. Again, not correct as interchanging the outcome product (image / picture) as equitable to the variant process(es) (AI / drawing / painting / photograph) is where the faulty premise fails. This (imo) ... is what leads folks down the trail of convolution in equating AI and photograph (semantics / definitions), errantly. They are different processes (by namesake definition) ... both can create imagery.



But, only one of those processes can create a photograph (photographic process, create image).





Jan 08, 2026 at 07:52 AM
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