tctmp wrote:
But then I don't see why ES can't be enabled. Other than 2x the rolling shutter, I don't see other ill effects or extra work needed. Just let users choose then.
Clearly DGO w/ES could theoretically be enabled since that's exactly what's done for video mode. I've theorized Panasonic chose not to due to their preference for speed over IQ for ES in previous firmware decisions, like dropping to 12-bits on their shutterless S9. I'm guessing Sony chose not to enable EGO since the ES is used for their high-speed shooting modes, and having different levels of IQ and rolling shutter across different shooting modes (had Sony elected to enable DGO w/ES when possible for the slower modes that don't need the fastest readout speed) would've been seen by Sony as confusing to users.
tctmp wrote:
Not every minute is conductive to taking pictures. Proof, you are not taking pictures right now.
Except for some people, when they are not taking pictures, they are talking about cameras.
For others like you, when you are not taking pictures, you are talking about people who are talking about cameras.
Sure, there’s a line…but it seems many cross that line and enjoy more the technicalities within the cameras than what those cameras can produce. How much does that extra 3% of dynamic range really matter in actual use…no one discusses this…instead it’s graphs and charts digging deep for that 3%.
I guess right when photography entered the digital world, the bit heads would follow.
chez wrote:
Sure, there’s a line…but it seems many cross that line and enjoy more the technicalities within the cameras than what those cameras can produce. How much does that extra 3% of dynamic range really matter in actual use…no one discusses this…instead it’s graphs and charts digging deep for that 3%.
I guess right when photography entered the digital world, the bit heads would follow.
I dont know where your 3% number come from. I think that's just something you made up to fit your narrative. The last part of the discussion is concentrated on the difference between MS and ES that's more than 1 stop. That's 100% extra noise and will certainly make me pay attention and think hard to decide which one to use.
I have certainly noticed noise difference from 100 to 200 to 400 on top end Nikon and Sony cameras and always try to balance iso and speed. And no, I'm not going to provide photos so that you can argue it doesnt make a difference. It's not your call at all. Whether you consider difference between 10 or 11 stops DR matters is totally not my concern.
The issue with some of you is that you think your line is the only line and want to insist it on others. That's just arrogant. IMHO, many of the pictures I saw here (including some of yours) certainly are not worthwhile to lug a real camera or a nice lens for, a phone will work plenty well. But I dont go to those threads and post that you are wasting your camera and should just use a phone instead. It's not my business. I hope you understand that it's not your business either when people discuss which cameras they like better.
The last part of the discussion is concentrated on the difference between MS and ES that's more than 1 stop. That's 100% extra noise and will certainly make me pay attention and think hard to decide which one to use.
I'm not calling out your post specifically, rather just making an observation - but it's funny how on this forum, a 1-stop difference in dynamic range is a huge amount when it supports the poster's argument, but it's insignificant when it doesn't...
ronno wrote:
It will be a less confusing camera when people start using it to make pictures, rather than treating it like a science project.
A7V offers choices and options: MS, EFCS, ES. How do YOU decide? You must be an experienced photographer, since you don't think that the A7V should be confusing in use. Can you teach me, what is the right choice of the shutter on this camera, and if different shutters should be used under different circumstances, when should this happen?
Going to interrupt the bickering to report that apparently there is no NR happening: it’s dual gain output: (which does not work with super fast shutter speeds, thus EC has less D.R.)
ronno wrote:
Going to interrupt the bickering to report that apparently there is no NR happening: it’s dual gain output: (which does not work with super fast shutter speeds, thus EC has less D.R.)
I don't believe anyone except Sony can tell with any confidence whether there is or isn't baked-in raw noise reduction.
Also the following statement from that article could be correct if the dual gain with the ES happened at ISO 400 or 500. At ISO 1000, this isn't "the perfect ground" in the true sense of "perfect":
"I think Sony has found the perfect middle ground: outstanding dynamic range with the mechanical shutter (10 fps is more than enough for most users), and when you really need ultimate speed, you can push it up to 30 fps using the electronic shutter."
Anyway, I am off this topic now, as it probably doesn’t matter anyway. No one looking at the pictures is going to know (or care) if there was a bit of NR or not 😉.
ronno wrote:
Yes, who knows.
But it sounds like the guy who originally tested and said there was noise reduction has reevaluated and rescinded that opinion:
Anyway, I am off this topic now, as it probably doesn’t matter anyway. No one looking at the pictures is going to know (or care) if there was a bit of NR or not 😉.
Not sure if you noticed, but both PetaPixel and SAR wrote their articles based on research done by @snapsy ...
snapsy wrote:
I reached out to Bill about the S1 II DGO/NR FFTs and he has revised his A7V measurements to no longer indicate NR:
j4nu wrote:
Not sure if you noticed, but both PetaPixel and SAR wrote their articles based on research done by @snapsy@@@@ ...
Yes, snapsy is the man here with the detailed technical explanation.
I still would have preferred sony to have introduced something like ES high fidelity mode where DGO is enabled. MS can still potentially introduce shutter shock.
ruthenium wrote:
I don't believe anyone except Sony can tell with any confidence whether there is or isn't baked-in raw noise reduction.
If the A7V sensor matches the behavior of their 24MP variant in the Z6III/S1 II, the ES demonstrates very little NR on the FFTs, which means the MS/DGO likely doesn't have it either (ie, it would be strange for Sony to only apply NR for the mechanical shutter and not the ES as wel).
the myth is busted. in my sleep, just tested the theory and its sound. its a plain as day, everyone has the info already, you just need to put it together. think outside the box , im not giving any hints yet, it will be fun just watching all the confusion.
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