p.1 #1 · Interesting observation about NEF white balance while using picture controls
So I've been working on a few different picture controls lately, and noticed these back-to-back shots are wildly different in terms of color temp despite being RAW and being set to identical settings in Lightroom Classic (copy/pasted my edits from one to the other).
I'm curious if others have seen this, and also to present as a sort of PSA that perhaps underlying white balance values might be more baked into the RAW than previously thought. As I've dug into how Flexible Picture Controls work, I've started having a gut feeling this is the case, but hadn't really had a good side by side example to prove it like this.
Note that I am showing you edited RAWs, not the JPEGs from the recipes, so my original thought is the original WB values shouldn't matter when editing the RAW files.
Both photos had their white balance changed to 8500K, +36 in Lightroom.
Picture 1, my Ilford 400 LO recipe, which is based on Nikon's Monochrome (non-flex), WB was originally set to "cloudy".
Picture 2, Modern Chrome HI by Serban (flex profile), WB was originally set to "incandescent".
The tough thing here is, you'd never catch this in the field, because you're seeing the recipe's JPEG.
p.1 #3 · Interesting observation about NEF white balance while using picture controls
I think I've seen this phenomenon before, as there are times when I take two consecutive shots and the color balance differs dramatically. The latter almost never occurs when shooting from a tripod where there isn't a slight compositional difference. However, when shooting handheld, if I shift up/down or left/right slightly, the additional non-subject area (more black above in this case), changes the average white balance and thus the rest of the color shifts. With that stated, the difference between the two images you are showing are profoundly different.
p.1 #4 · Interesting observation about NEF white balance while using picture controls
Interesting. Was this with the ZF? Also, did you check if LR applied the same profile and processing version to both files? I wonder if it has something to do with black point / noise calibration.
p.1 #5 · Interesting observation about NEF white balance while using picture controls
1) yes these are with the Zf, though that shouldn't matter
2) all settings in LR are identical to each other including profile (adobe) and calibration panel
3) my raw files don't set calibration in LR, as I don't import with camera settings...i want to generally have the color raw as a full color backup to mono jpegs and camera settings would make that clunkier
Specifically to what Bruce has seen, yes, I see that quite often myself, especially when I'm on a WB setting that is anything but an Auto mode (usually I'm on Auto2 for warmer balance). I've never been able to put my finger on what exactly is weighing so heavily on the WB measurement.
p.1 #6 · Interesting observation about NEF white balance while using picture controls
I wonder if a different Raw convertor would help?. Could you try processing your image with Darktable or Rawtherapee?
ramuk
RoamingScott wrote:
1) yes these are with the Zf, though that shouldn't matter
2) all settings in LR are identical to each other including profile (adobe) and calibration panel
3) my raw files don't set calibration in LR, as I don't import with camera settings...i want to generally have the color raw as a full color backup to mono jpegs and camera settings would make that clunkier
Specifically to what Bruce has seen, yes, I see that quite often myself, especially when I'm on a WB setting that is anything but an Auto mode (usually I'm on Auto2 for warmer balance). I've never been able to put my finger on what exactly is weighing so heavily on the WB measurement....Show more →
p.1 #7 · Interesting observation about NEF white balance while using picture controls
I have seen this phenomenon often with the Z6 and Z9 (and other cameras as well, Nikon, Panasonic, Olympus, etc.). Two consecutive or similar images of the same scene with same exposure and white balance (RAW) give slightly to wildly different color.
I have found one reason to be lighting. Some types of lighting — such as HID in gyms, but sometimes other types of lighting or when a fixture/bulb/ballast is failing — rapidly cycle through drastic color changes. High shutter speeds will capture these varying colors where the camera and your eye cannot adjust quickly enough to record/adapt to the cycling.
There are other times when lighting is constant, such as sunlight outdoors or a flash/fixture with high color index, where color temp of the RAW files is consistent yet actual color in the files varies. In this case, I'm not sure what happens in camera to cause the variation. Even with a fixed (in camera) white balance, you see color differences, sometimes quite drastic.
I shot an event last week that had consistent natural light coming in through large windows. Many of the files required manual white balance adjustment to get even close to consistent color. The same white balance setting produced wildly different results. I was starting to think my Z9 had some kind of issue, but I am glad to know others see the same problem. I will see if I have some time tomorrow to post a few examples.
p.1 #8 · Interesting observation about NEF white balance while using picture controls
ramuk wrote:
I wonder if a different Raw convertor would help?. Could you try processing your image with Darktable or Rawtherapee?
ramuk
Even NX Studio shows fairly different color casts when both RAW files are set to the same values. This again leads me to believe that something about the original WB is baked in deeper. In theory this should be easy enough to replicate when I have time, and probably easier to do at night. I still have a feeling it lies with Flexible Color as the base, as I've seen this happen more often when using Flex controls.
For the record, to get the WB to match, I had to set the first RAW to 5100k and -38. This lead me to remember that my Shade WB setting has a customized tint...I am thinking that might be the answer, that that tint shift is hard baked into the RAW.
