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Fuji for landscape

  
 
gdanmitchell
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p.8 #1 · Fuji for landscape


gyoung143 wrote:
I gave up using film (except for fun) when 'tests" I did of same subject seconds apart demonstrated that a 16mpx 14bit image on an aps-c Nikon with a Tamron zoom had more detail than a 24mpx 24 bit scan from a Provia 100 in an M6 with a 35mm Summicron. If you looked closely at the digital image you could see more detail, looking closely at the scan of the film gave you grain (actually dye clumping, no silver left in a transparency). You could just discern the difference in a3 prints at normal viewing distance.
So digital is undoubtedly
...Show more

If anyone has access to very old Luminous Landscape articles, my friend Charles Cramer early on documented a series of tests he did as he contemplated moving from 4x5 LF film to Phase One backs in the early 2000s. IIRC, his first attempts at comparisons left him not quite convinced to give up LF film for digital, but he kept testing with newer iterations of the gear and finally decided that the digital backs produced better results than the scanned 4x5 images he had been using. (He had also been doing dye transfer printing, and he soon moved to inkjet.)

He’s a very thorough and patient tester of such things, and his process carefully compared images shot as similarly as possible and then taken through optimized post-processing and then printed large.

In image quality terms, there’s a very good case to be made the digital media now surpass the lovely results from film technology. On the other hand, film still works and there is that business about each print being unique…at least if you do the printing in the old-school optical/chemical darkroom rather than scanning and then printing digitally.

Note: Please don’t construe any of this as suggesting that film is bad or anything like that. The long history of beautiful film work would belie such a claim.



Oct 05, 2025 at 10:17 AM
gyoung143
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p.8 #2 · Fuji for landscape


Another set of very basic tests I had done earlier was to see if a scanner I had access to (a Nikon Cooscan III, which did 16mpx from 35mm frames 24x36mm) would allow me to give up printing in a darkroom. This is before I bought a digital camera. I took the same transparency, a Kodachrome from the Leica if I remember correctly,, scanned it on the Coolscan and printed it A3, on an early Epson photo printer. Then compared the print side by side with a Cibachrome, a direct positive print (reversal paper) and a neg/pos using a special interneg film anf then printed on 'normal' neg/pos paper.
The digital print and the cibachrome were as good as each other (slightly different but happy with either, the other two were not so good, less resolution and detail. I sold my drum processor and happily did a hybrid workflow until the aforementioned tests turned me over to digital more or less

Gerry



Oct 05, 2025 at 02:05 PM
bernardl
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p.8 #3 · Fuji for landscape


gyoung143 wrote:
Another set of very basic tests I had done earlier was to see if a scanner I had access to (a Nikon Cooscan III, which did 16mpx from 35mm frames 24x36mm) would allow me to give up printing in a darkroom. This is before I bought a digital camera. I took the same transparency, a Kodachrome from the Leica if I remember correctly,, scanned it on the Coolscan and printed it A3, on an early Epson photo printer. Then compared the print side by side with a Cibachrome, a direct positive print (reversal paper) and a neg/pos using a special
...Show more

Sure... but then having owned all the Nikon film scanners up to the 9000, having owned an Imacon for years and having then stitch scanned 8x10 with my IQ4-150 on a dedicated Arca tech camera with the best Rodenstock macro lens... there is bit more to scanning than the Coolscan III.

I am not saying that film is better by any means, but digitizing film is a complicated process if you try to get the last bits of information out of a scan. And obviously that is a royal pain.

Nowadays I consider that 8x10 is the only film format for which the process is worth it in terms of image detail (there are of course other valid reasons to shoot film), but even so stitching digital frames is way easier and results in clearly better image quality, when applicable. 4x5 is dead to me since the end of quick loads. If I have to go through the trouble of inserting sheets in holders in a tent, then I might as well do it for 8x10. And even that I rarely do.

Cheers,
Bernard



Oct 05, 2025 at 02:24 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.8 #4 · Fuji for landscape


gyoung143 wrote:
Another set of very basic tests I had done earlier was to see if a scanner I had access to (a Nikon Cooscan III, which did 16mpx from 35mm frames 24x36mm) would allow me to give up printing in a darkroom. This is before I bought a digital camera. I took the same transparency, a Kodachrome from the Leica if I remember correctly,, scanned it on the Coolscan and printed it A3, on an early Epson photo printer. Then compared the print side by side with a Cibachrome, a direct positive print (reversal paper) and a neg/pos using a special
...Show more

That “ as good as each other (slightly different but happy with either” is important, in my view.

Not every difference has to be associated with “better” and “worse” characterizations — sometimes different things are just… different.



Oct 05, 2025 at 03:11 PM
Jack Flesher
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p.8 #5 · Fuji for landscape


Direct digital is about 100X more convenient than any self-processed film; and doubly so for any view camera capture. And that inconvenience is one of the main reasons I believe it will become a more sought after artistic medium going forward.

IMO, digital is moving to video at a clip that will eventually obviate digital stills even for hobbyists.



Oct 05, 2025 at 03:13 PM
gyoung143
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p.8 #6 · Fuji for landscape


bernardl wrote:
Sure... but then having owned all the Nikon film scanners up to the 9000, having owned an Imacon for years and having then stitch scanned 8x10 with my IQ4-150 on a dedicated Arca tech camera with the best Rodenstock macro lens... there is bit more to scanning than the Coolscan III.

I am not saying that film is better by any means, but digitizing film is a complicated process if you try to get the last bits of information out of a scan. And obviously that is a royal pain.

Nowadays I consider that 8x10 is the only film format for which
...Show more
The Coolscan III was the latest at the time, and the likes of Imacon are not something accessible to most. I have had scans made on such things and still they don't get to where pretty "cooking' consumer digital cameras (such as tge Fujis even) turn out without drama.

Gerry




Oct 05, 2025 at 03:23 PM
gyoung143
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p.8 #7 · Fuji for landscape


gdanmitchell wrote:
That “ as good as each other (slightly different but happy with either” is important, in my view.

Not every difference has to be associated with “better” and “worse” characterizations — sometimes different things are just… different.


My take was that it was not worth the trouble, expense and time to produce a cibachrome for a slight difference in colour rendering compared to sitting in a comfy chair watching the print off the printer. Difference so slight tht most coukd not tell. And printers have got even better in the 20 plus years since then.

Gerry



Oct 05, 2025 at 03:29 PM
Geoff D F
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p.8 #8 · Fuji for landscape


gyoung143 wrote:
I gave up using film (except for fun) when 'tests" I did of same subject seconds apart demonstrated that a 16mpx 14bit image on an aps-c Nikon with a Tamron zoom had more detail than a 24mpx 24 bit scan from a Provia 100 in an M6 with a 35mm Summicron. If you looked closely at the digital image you could see more detail, looking closely at the scan of the film gave you grain (actually dye clumping, no silver left in a transparency). You could just discern the difference in a3 prints at normal viewing distance.
So digital is undoubtedly
...Show more

The artistic value of any work is entirely subjective so i don't see how you can say the process involved is irrelevant to that.



Oct 05, 2025 at 03:50 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.8 #9 · Fuji for landscape


gyoung143 wrote:
My take was that it was not worth the trouble, expense and time to produce a cibachrome for a slight difference in colour rendering compared to sitting in a comfy chair watching the print off the printer. Difference so slight tht most coukd not tell. And printers have got even better in the 20 plus years since then.

Gerry


Where we are now, arguably, is that while darkroom prints and inkjet prints are not identical, both are extremely good if you know what you are doing.

To expand on your point about ease, we have much greater creative and technical control over the outcome with digital tools. A friend likes to describe some of what we have available to us now as “the things Ansel could not do.” (This is a friend who knew AA and worked with him.)



Oct 05, 2025 at 05:17 PM
 


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Geoff D F
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p.8 #10 · Fuji for landscape


gdanmitchell wrote:
Where we are now, arguably, is that while darkroom prints and inkjet prints are not identical, both are extremely good if you know what you are doing.

To expand on your point about ease, we have much greater creative and technical control over the outcome with digital tools. A friend likes to describe some of what we have available to us now as “the things Ansel could not do.” (This is a friend who knew AA and worked with him.)


And yet Ansel's work remains more prized than most of today's photos.



Oct 05, 2025 at 09:18 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.8 #11 · Fuji for landscape


Geoff D F wrote:
And yet Ansel's work remains more prized than most of today's photos.


That's more about Ansel than about film versus digital.

Adams wasn't perfect, by the way. Two stories.

I've told this one before, since it is public. As I recall the story... years ago one of his assistants (highly regarded, but I'll keep his name out of this) was assigned to go through Adams' negatives and make contact prints of many images — I recall the number was well into the thousands. Obviously, at the conclusion of this task he had an extensive knowledge of Adams' work. The story goes that he was asked what he remembered the most about the experience — he said that it was the extraordinary number of banal "record shots" in the archive. (In his defense, there's Adams' famous quote about a dozen good photos a year being a "good crop.)

The second story involves a photographer friend who worked with Adams near the end of his life. My friend, as a pretty well-known photographer himself, has acquired a lot of prints by various other well-regarded photographers including Adams. I was at his house one day when he pulled a few of them out, including one of a light colored tree against a darker background. my friend wondered what I thought and I wasn't quite sure how to respond — the print was not of the quality that we associate with Adams' best work. in fact, I felt that shadows were pretty badly blocked. I paused for a moment, wondering if I should say something like "I love Ansel's prints" or answer honestly. I picked the latter... and my friend said, yes, I've wondered about that.

Whew!

Because Adams was one of the first to do what he did, because. he was a big-time socializer, because a whole community of photographers formed around him, because he was in many ways very generous, because he knew how to get published, because he was associated with the Sierra Club, because he did some high visibility work... he hit the reputational jackpot. In my view he deserved it, though a photographer doing what he did then would not make anywhere near that kind of impact today.

There are plenty of photographers who are just as good and even, in my view, better today. But it is a different world, and it is much harder to make an Ansel-style impact in the photography world, much less in the world beyond photography, as Adams did.



Oct 05, 2025 at 10:46 PM
Geoff D F
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p.8 #12 · Fuji for landscape


gdanmitchell wrote:
That's more about Ansel than about film versus digital.

Adams wasn't perfect, by the way. Two stories.

I've told this one before, since it is public. As I recall the story... years ago one of his assistants (highly regarded, but I'll keep his name out of this) was assigned to go through Adams' negatives and make contact prints of many images — I recall the number was well into the thousands. Obviously, at the conclusion of this task he had an extensive knowledge of Adams' work. The story goes that he was asked what he remembered the most about the experience —
...Show more

No one ever said he was perfect. He had a habit of making a huge number of prints and destroying most of them because they weren't good enough. It's a well-known story that one of his understudies questioned him about destroying his prints and he told her that keeping them was the difference between him being regarded as a good photographer versus a great one.

I've seen some of his work and it definitely has an incredible aesthetic. But since the merits of any artwork is subjective, I don’t see how you can say artists today are doing better work (or worse). It is fair enough to have that as a personal opinion, but unless we are using the price of an artwork or perhaps a panel of art judges as a measure there is really no way of quantifying what is better or worse.

His photo of moonrise over half dome is said to have stunned the art world at the time because no one had ever seen a photo like it. That is more than can be said about nearly every modern photographer, though it was a much less crowded world then.





Oct 05, 2025 at 11:50 PM
bernardl
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p.8 #13 · Fuji for landscape


I think that there is indeed a competitive dimension here, right.

He was ahead of the pack back then. Some photographers today are ahead of the pack in terms of vision, subject, style, technique,... but it's much more difficult for them to be recognized as such in the super noisy and hyper media saturated world we live in where the sky (drones) brings "new" angles regardless of quality, where still image themselves are under heavy attack from motion picture,...

Cheers,
Bernard



Oct 06, 2025 at 12:11 AM
gyoung143
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p.8 #14 · Fuji for landscape


The links between evaluation of subject, development times etc are a standard subject now in photographic education, and we're when I did my courses 60 years ago. Applied sensitometry and S curves, quadrant diagrams all there, he gave it a fancy name , Zone system. He produced some fine work I find satisfying to look at, even in printed book form.
Had a student once ask how he coukd apply it to work on a roll of FP4 in his Nikon .

Gerry



Oct 06, 2025 at 02:09 AM
mdude85
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p.8 #15 · Fuji for landscape


Geoff D F wrote:
His photo of moonrise over half dome is said to have stunned the art world at the time because no one had ever seen a photo like it. That is more than can be said about nearly every modern photographer, though it was a much less crowded world then.



You're probably thinking of Monolith, the Face of Half Dome. Because it was taken in the late 1920s, when this subject matter and the specific development processes were just being introduced to the public. Moonrise over Half Dome was taken in 1960.

These early photos were so notable because they captured a sort of wild spirit of America through the natural landscape. The 1920s and 1930s were huge periods for discovery of national parks, inspired by photographs, writings, etc. Obviously, at this point, almost everyone has either seen these parks in person or is familiar with them, and that's one reason that modern photographs of this type are not that impactful. It's a reminder that so much of what makes a photograph iconic is not only about the subject matter or the composition but also about the historical context.



Oct 06, 2025 at 09:05 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.8 #16 · Fuji for landscape


Geoff D F wrote:
No one ever said he was perfect.


Not every statement in a post I make is necessarily a response to the exact words of another poster. The expression “not perfect” in this case is a common idiom. (As in, “not every post I make is exactly brilliant.”)

He had a habit of making a huge number of prints and destroying most of them because they weren't good enough. It's a well-known story that one of his understudies questioned him about destroying his prints and he told her that keeping them was the difference between him being regarded as a good photographer versus a great one.

No surprise at all. In fact, that’s pretty typical of photographers and often the result of common advice to only show your best work. I once visited Edward Weston’s home near Carmel and his grandson, who lives there now, brought out some of Weston’s negatives to share. Yes, I got to hold a few of them. All of them had holes punched in them, rendering them useless for printing.

(That’s not just true of photographers — it is a pretty common philosophy among creatives.)*

Do you have a reference for his comment about “ keeping them was the difference between him being regarded as a good photographer versus a great one?” I’m not familiar with it. Knowing a bit about the man, I would not be surprised if he said that with a certain ironic intention.

I've seen some of his work and it definitely has an incredible aesthetic. But since the merits of any artwork is subjective, I don’t see how you can say artists today are doing better work (or worse).

One good subjective point of view deserves another. :-)

It is fair enough to have that as a personal opinion, but unless we are using the price of an artwork or perhaps a panel of art judges as a measure there is really no way of quantifying what is better or worse.

In my story, which cannot be totally free of subjectivity, I was pointing to something most photographers reviewing the print — including my friend the former Ansel associate — would agree was an objective “miss” on his part.

His photo of moonrise over half dome is said to have stunned the art world at the time because no one had ever seen a photo like it. That is more than can be said about nearly every modern photographer, though it was a much less crowded world then.

That ‘no one had ever seen a photo like it” comment is quite in line with the point I was trying to make, that the impact of Ansel’s work was what it was in part for that very reason — he was among the first to photograph such subjects in this serious, artistically-informed way.

By the way, I’m a bit on an Ansel fan, and I was greatly influenced by his vision as a young photographer. I never took any of his workshops — I only met him once, when my father took me to a talk he gave locally — but I’ve been fortunate to be on the fringe of his circle, counting as friends a number of photoraphers, some fairly well-known, who were his protégés and otherwise directly impacted by him, FWIW. (It was a thrill when I was included at an exhibit at the AA Gallery in Yosemite and actually sold a print there!)

- - -

* I think there's a lot of merit to that approach of only showing best work. Ironically, I have taken almost the opposite approach over the past 20+ years, posting daily photographs at my website, fully aware that any "best work" will comprise a distinct minority of all the work I share. (I did this for a particular reason that I'll only go into here if anyone is interested, and I'm not anticipating that anyone will be.)



Oct 06, 2025 at 11:07 AM
Geoff D F
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p.8 #17 · Fuji for landscape


The reference to him asking his assistant to destroy his 'substandard' prints was in a made for TV documentary about him, where the assistant, a fairly elderly women, was interviewed. It made an impression on me.

I too am guilty of showing too many substandard works. I think his ethos about if he managed to produce a dozen good photographs a year then it was a good year is a really good one for creatives. I have heard this story too.

If one has artistic aims then photography becomes about the exceptions, not the averages. I suspect many of us do a bit of both - photography to document our lives, families, travel, and events along with a creative element where we are hoping to produce the occaisional exceptional work.

Bringing this back to topic, if one's photography is about the exceptions, and I think shooting landscapes is, then adding a GFX and a couple of lenses may well make sense. One's main system be it FF or APS-C can do the everyday work, where averages are more important, while the GFX can be used for the times where one is more concerned about getting an 'exceptional' shot.



Oct 06, 2025 at 03:54 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.8 #18 · Fuji for landscape


Geoff D F wrote:
The reference to him asking his assistant to destroy his 'substandard' prints was in a made for TV documentary about him, where the assistant, a fairly elderly women, was interviewed. It made an impression on me.


Phylis Donohue maybe?

Possibly this documentary? https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/ansel/#film_description

too am guilty of showing too many substandard works. I think his ethos about if he managed to produce a dozen good photographs a year then it was a good year is a really good one for creatives. I have heard this story too.

My academic training (and career) were in music, where practice (daily, for hours) is a main thing. I believe that is true of photography, too. So two decades ago, when I started posting stuff on the web, I decided to try to exemplify that notion of "daily practice" by posting a new photograph every day. Needless to say, there's a lot of quite average stuff (from my perspective) that got posted, and my approach has evolved over the years. But the idea to some traction, and at least one photographer (another Ansel protege) was using that aspect of my site in his workshops for years.

If one has artistic aims then photography becomes about the exceptions, not the averages.

The truly good work is, indeed, an exception. You can do what I regard as decent, credible work daily, but too many things, some of them nearly imponderable, need to come together for the great work to occur. In between there's a lot of "practice" — doing the work, chasing after your subject, failing, learning, experimenting, taking detours, and more. All of this is part of being in the zone a prepared when the opportunities for the great stuff arrive. You can, as some like to say, improve the odds a great deal.

A lot of folks get into photography because it is "fun." There's nothing wrong with that, of course. But doing exceptional work takes... work. And sometimes it isn't super-pleasant or immediately rewarding.

As to the gear question, I get that your perspective is that using the best gear is critical and that a particular format provides that best gear. I hear and understand what you are saying.

I don't disagree at all about good gear, but my definition of "best" fear is broader than greatest dynamic range or highest resolution. Sometimes those things could be extremely important. But there are plenty of situations, including in landscape photography, where other aspects determine whether gear is the best. If that were not the case, every serious landscape photographer would choose to use that same format, yet a whole bunch of truly excellent photographers who could make that choice make a difference tone.

YMMV.



Oct 06, 2025 at 04:20 PM
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