Daran wrote:
Those differences are not what you'd see as differences in final images though. No sensor adequately mimics the sensitivity curves of the human eye cones. Similarly the RGB channels used on modern display devices are close in spectrum to those used by cameras and accordingly fairly different from human sensitivities. Hence you need recalculation of the colors. Which is what a sensor specific color profile is supposed to do. Which does work so well, that within reason (as above: sRGB, black body type light and appropriate color profile) you should not be able to visually distinguish any resulting colors (aka: the error is <1∂E). So when someone says he prefers the color of one camera or lens over another, what he probably should have said is that he prefers the outcome of using those together with the inappropriate color profile and WB he happens to use....Show more →
Wouldn't you agree that it might have been interesting and instructive to see the jpegs of the OP the way these looked before any WB correction in post, that is with the "native" out-of-camera WB? I am not at all sure that these would've looked the same. Perhaps they should have, but I am the "Doubting Thomas" in this case.
ruthenium wrote:
Wouldn't you agree that it might have been interesting and instructive to see the jpegs of the OP the way these looked before any WB correction in post, that is with the "native" out-of-camera WB? I am not at all sure that these would've looked the same. Perhaps they should have, but I am the "Doubting Thomas" in this case.
If all he did was correct WB, then all you'd get is a glimpse into how their AWB differs for this particular scene, with only a rough guess as to what the actual color temperature was. But you can experiment more convincingly with your own camera by comparing what your AWB gets you to what your deliberate manual WB (e.g. using a grey card or by optimizing for personal taste) would be. And then try the same after adjusting your viewing environments color temperature. Or have mixed lighting color temperatures (via indirect or artificial light). All these will likely yield significantly different colors, none of which being due to the used hardware. WB is quite the can of worms.
Something to consider is that Sony has some lenses with incredibly high transmission numbers (t/#). For instance, if something like the Sony 55/1.8 were used, it has a transmission of t/1.8, which I had previously thought was impossible. Typically, f/1.4 lenses have a t/1.8. And this has been seen since Sony transitioned to their lens manufacturing process back in 2013, I think. Maybe a bit earlier. But that difference in transmission is going to result in a brighter scene for most Sony lenses which will absolutely make colors quite a bit different and it really won't be apples to apples.
As mentioned before, this is a thread about ADOBE "color science". The entire point of the Adobe Color profile is to match colors between camera brands to give you a consistent look if you're mixing gear in the same body of work.
If you want to talk about brand "color science" you have to 1) use their own profiles and 2) look at the JPEGs, not RAW files.
TheEmrys wrote:
Something to consider is that Sony has some lenses with incredibly high transmission numbers (t/#). For instance, if something like the Sony 55/1.8 were used, it has a transmission of t/1.8, which I had previously thought was impossible. Typically, f/1.4 lenses have a t/1.8. And this has been seen since Sony transitioned to their lens manufacturing process back in 2013, I think. Maybe a bit earlier. But that difference in transmission is going to result in a brighter scene for most Sony lenses which will absolutely make colors quite a bit different and it really won't be apples to apples.
It's good that you point that out. However, with TTL exposure metering and aperture priority, or with the corresponding manual adjustment, it wouldn't matter, I would think.
It absolutely would matter if you are matching ISO and aperture, which is what was done.
But then there is the difficulty of matching the metering, unless there is a more controlled scenario such as a studio with fixed studio lighting.
Nifty Fifty wrote:
It's good that you point that out. However, with TTL exposure metering and aperture priority, or with the corresponding manual adjustment, it wouldn't matter, I would think.
TheEmrys wrote:
It absolutely would matter if you are matching ISO and aperture, which is what was done.
But then there is the difficulty of matching the metering, unless there is a more controlled scenario such as a studio with fixed studio lighting.
I don't quite follow you. If the 1.8 lens has the same transmission value at full aperture as the 1.4 lens at full aperture, can't I just expose with the same exposure value?
If you are using different lenses, allow shutter speed to be set automatically with a fixed ISO and Aperture, AND each body exposes in a similar manner. The algorithms involved in picking exposure vary brand-to-brand. Center-weighted means different things to different bodies, as does full frame exposure, and spot metering. Canon and Nikon used Sekonic metering while Minolta always had their own metering sensor. The metering is not done the same brand-to-brand.
I didn't even getting into the color cast different lenses have.
Best way to do this is:
Studio settings with an old, manual focus lens, with adapters for each body. Set ISO 100 (not 80 for certain Nikon bodies), use the same aperture, and then play with shutter speed.
Nifty Fifty wrote:
I don't quite follow you. If the 1.8 lens has the same transmission value at full aperture as the 1.4 lens at full aperture, can't I just expose with the same exposure value?
old-gregg wrote:
Same exposure with the A7R V (35mm f/1.4. GM) and Z8 (35mm f/1.8 S).
- Converted using 100% default settings in Lightroom. Adobe Color profile.
- White balance is set on the grey card.
- Both were shot at ISO 100 with identical shutter speed and aperture.
- Unfortunately focus is not 100% identical, but it doesn't matter.
I hope this will be helpful for future discussions about "color science" and maybe "color rendering" of lenses too.
[EDIT] For folks who missed my scarcasm: your camera manufactrer has absolutely nothing to do with the colors you're getting into the Adobe ecosystem.
Hi Old-Gregg.
I wonder if it is possible that the focus difference you reference might have very slightly affected the exposure of the two images. My understanding is that this could happen if you had your camera set to link metering to the focus point. I know this is possible with Sony; it might also be possible with Nikon. If so, the difference is very slight.
@chiron, it absolutely could. But in this case I used manual exposure and white balance. 1/4s f/2.8 ISO100 for both. But because the lenses are different, this may explain a slight difference in exposure.
TheEmrys wrote:
If you are using different lenses, allow shutter speed to be set automatically with a fixed ISO and Aperture, AND each body exposes in a similar manner. The algorithms involved in picking exposure vary brand-to-brand. Center-weighted means different things to different bodies, as does full frame exposure, and spot metering. Canon and Nikon used Sekonic metering while Minolta always had their own metering sensor. The metering is not done the same brand-to-brand.
I didn't even getting into the color cast different lenses have.
Best way to do this is:
Studio settings with an old, manual focus lens, with adapters for each body. Set ISO 100 (not 80 for certain Nikon bodies), use the same aperture, and then play with shutter speed.
...Show more →
I understand all of that. However, the starting point was the post that pointed out differences due to the actual transmission, and I said that this has no effect as long as exposure is based on TTL metering. Everything you're saying now is all correct, but it has nothing to do with the topic of transmission.
It all depends on the settings. If the test was done with one camera's metering and then settings matched to that, one image will be darker, at the same aperture.
Then there is the whole issue possible with AWB vs light meter and matched WB temperature.
Nifty Fifty wrote:
I understand all of that. However, the starting point was the post that pointed out differences due to the actual transmission, and I said that this has no effect as long as exposure is based on TTL metering. Everything you're saying now is all correct, but it has nothing to do with the topic of transmission.
TheEmrys wrote:
It all depends on the settings. If the test was done with one camera's metering and then settings matched to that, one image will be darker, at the same aperture.
Then there is the whole issue possible with AWB vs light meter and matched WB temperature.
As I said, I'm aware of all that. I was just commenting on the suggestion that transmission plays a role. So I don't understand why you're telling me all this.
Ripolini wrote:
Does the lens matter? He used different lenses. He could have used the same lens (i.e., an adapted Zeiss, Milvus or Otus) and then make the tests.
Did you even watch the video?
Sure. My question refers to the fact that he is trying to homogenize the colors of the four cameras using four different lenses, so the lens enters the equation.
@Ripolini When it comes to color, lenses don't matter. I have no idea why the lens reviewers continue to parrot the "lens color" line, as if they're still living in the 80s and shooting slides. Because all modern lenses of comparable contrast, when mounted to a digital body, will produce identical color when an image is white-balanced on a grey card.
Again, in the digital domain, hardware (lenses and bodies) does not matter when it comes to color. The color is a product of digital processing, where minor hardware variations are trivially erased. In your own macro coparison in another thread, you said that "Zeiss color is more neutral, and Nikkor is more red". Nope. You're commenting on auto-WB processing, not the lens. To make them identical, open the WB panel and push the Nikkor RAWs towards green, or the Zeiss towards magenta.
