1bwana1 wrote:
I currently have Healthcare in both Italy and the U.S.. I am able to get pretty much identical coverage and service in both places. In both instances I have coverage with base insurance which is enhanced with additional coverage packages so that I end up with full coverage, close to zero deductibles, zero co-pays, choice of providers, and instant access to care on demand. No waiting for Government approval with private upscale hospitals, and concierge Doctors. In the U.S. it is primarily paid for with premiums. In Italy it is covered primarily by taxes, with a premium based private enhancement. Basically equal out come for me. But my free National healthcare in Italy costs me way more than my private healthcare in the U.S.. Way, Way more...
Free National Healthcare is also a different form of truth......Show more →
People understand the "free" healthcare means "free" at the point of delivery. Of course it is not free, everyone pays for it.
Also, at some point, people in a society in this country or that decided that a mark of civilised society is paying for people that are sick to get healthcare vs dying like dogs on the street. Just like paying for a fire brigade and police and an army. Some other societies decded that individual wealth is more important. Which I guess is ok too since people keep voting for it.
panos.v wrote:
People understand the "free" healthcare means "free" at the point of delivery. Of course it is not free, everyone pays for it.
Also, at some point, people in a society in this country or that decided that a mark of civilised society is paying for people that are sick to get healthcare vs dying like dogs on the street. Just like paying for a fire brigade and police and an army. Some other societies decded that individual wealth is more important. Which I guess is ok too since people keep voting for it.
I had a frank discussion with a couple of guys in South Carolina about health care. Their biggest concern about paying into universal healthcare is what if they never use the money they put into the system and that some other person uses more than they put in. I told them I’d be the happiest bastard if I never had to use a single penny of what I contributed to the health care.
The only effect of American tariffs I care about is if those price increases are equalised to other countries so we pay more because of US policy. I don’t care what happens in the US. They voted for it. Last I heard it was still mostly an democracy. And if it benefits you, you’ll support it and if it doesn’t you won’t. Since these measures mostly support the wealthy and penalise the poor it’ll be a net benefit for anyone in the US shooting Leica. Same with universal healthcare. If you can afford the insurance you don’t see the problem. While most outsiders don’t understand the US mentality around healthcare and guns it’s a choice form the US. Most developed countries have socialist underpinnings with regard to health and employment. The US does not. It’s the most tribal developed country in the world. You support a your party, and your alumni and your team, to the death. You should be able to pay your own way and if your earned it it’s all yours. Pure capitalism. Fine.
But I don’t want US policy forcing prices up here.
I’m not entirely against his insistence that other countries take more responsibility for their own security. It’s a sad incitement that humans still are this primitive about killing each other but it is what it is. 98% chimpanzee. I don’t think he has a real grasp of the effects of his current trade policies though.
In reality very few countries actually have a giant trade deficit with the US except China. The current administrations decision to not include services in its figures is skewing the real results. They’re not counting Apple, Adobe, Microsoft, Hollywood or Google’s digital services. The US long ago became a services based system as part of a global economy and Trump doesn’t like that, for whatever reason.
I can see that from within it would be easy to manipulate the conversation for those who are losing jobs in a service based economy but from the outside it looks very much like Trump is manipulating the markets for personal gain and using tariffs to pay for his tax cuts, that favour the very wealthy. Using the threat of China it’s easy to sell the fact that the US is no longer completely self reliant. No country, except China is. Becoming self reliant sounds for all intents like a good idea but it really means isolationist. This isolationist policy is popular but also risks doing exactly what he’s selling. Isolating the US from the rest of the world. It won’t work because no one in the US is prepared to pay more at Walmart for socks and jocks. And Trump actually sabotaged tesla, who do manufacture in the USA because of a personal tiff Musk. It’s increasingly difficult to actually argue that moving manufacturing to the US is actually what he wants.
Currently the deadline has been extended. That’s because no one besides the UK had any interest in doing a deal. And generally it’s been good for cameras here. I can get almost anything (except an A1ii) pretty much straight away. X100VI is on camera store shelves. M11’s? All in stock.
It’s likely the deadline will get further extensions. This is far from sorted for many many months to come and volatility is really the only constant.
chez wrote:
I had a frank discussion with a couple of guys in South Carolina about health care. Their biggest concern about paying into universal healthcare is what if they never use the money they put into the system and that some other person uses more than they put in. I told them I’d be the happiest bastard if I never had to use a single penny of what I contributed to the health care.
Isn’t that exactly the same with health insurance, except the company makes massive profits for shareholders?
panos.v wrote:
Also, at some point, people in a society in this country or that decided that a mark of civilised society is paying for people that are sick to get healthcare vs dying like dogs on the street. Just like paying for a fire brigade and police and an army. Some other societies decded that individual wealth is more important. Which I guess is ok too since people keep voting for it.
Of course you realize that no one is dying on the streets like dogs because of lack of health care. Everyone who needs it gets treated. There are many programs used to pay for it. In fact at every Hospital I know of treatment comes first. There are specialist on staff who are trained to fit those who have need into one of the many programs to then pay for care. It is actually those with too many resources to qualify for free care but not enough to pay for the care themselves who suffer great financial damage from the inefficient system here.
As is always the case, wealthy people do just fine in the US just like they do World Wide.
chez wrote:
I had a frank discussion with a couple of guys in South Carolina about health care. Their biggest concern about paying into universal healthcare is what if they never use the money they put into the system and that some other person uses more than they put in. I told them I’d be the happiest bastard if I never had to use a single penny of what I contributed to the health care.
Obviously, their attitude is a bit short sided. This is going to bite us in the backside. First, those washed off of subsidised insurance are still going to get care, likely at a hospital ED, which dispenses some of the most expensive health care available. The cost of the hospital covering indigent patients is going to be paid for by higher fees for those that can pay. Also, it is far cheaper to dispense wellness care than crisis care.
Nobody should be proud of never visiting a doctor or dentist. The occasional well visit or tooth cleaning can catch problems while they are still manageable, often at a lower cost.
I can add a personal note to the above. My younger brother was one of those that thought health insurance and doctor visits were an avoidable expense. After not feeling well for many months, he finally saw a doctor. Tests found stage 4 intestinal cancer that had also metastasized to his liver. His final weeks were spent taking an expensive chemo cocktail, with the knowledge he had less than 2 years. Due to a complication, he did not make it nearly that far, and ended up spending his last 2 weeks in an ICU. Besides having no insurance, he also didn’t have two dimes to rub together. His six figure treatment was a writeoff.
Taperwing wrote:
Obviously, their attitude is a bit short sided. This is going to bite us in the backside. First, those washed off of subsidised insurance are still going to get care, likely at a hospital ED, which dispenses some of the most expensive health care available. The cost of the hospital covering indigent patients is going to be paid for by higher fees for those that can pay. Also, it is far cheaper to dispense wellness care than crisis care.
Nobody should be proud of never visiting a doctor or dentist. The occasional well visit or tooth cleaning can catch problems while they are still manageable, often at a lower cost.
I can add a personal note to the above. My younger brother was one of those that thought health insurance and doctor visits were an avoidable expense. After not feeling well for many months, he finally saw a doctor. Tests found stage 4 intestinal cancer that had also metastasized to his liver. His final weeks were spent taking an expensive chemo cocktail, with the knowledge he had less than 2 years. Due to a complication, he did not make it nearly that far, and ended up spending his last 2 weeks in an ICU. Besides having no insurance, he also didn’t have two dimes to rub together. His six figure treatment was a writeoff.
I am confident that one or another indegent Healthcare programs reimbursed the care providers for your Brother's treatment. I am also guessing that since he was indegent his poor Healthcare choices are reflected in his other life choices.
Once again it is all about personal choice. If you are not succeeding here you likely wouldn't have succeeded anywhere. Complaints complaining otherwise are just trying to excuse your failure.
I’ve had two experiences with the US health care. My wife broke an arm in Hawaii and I lost a tooth cap in Atlanta, Both times the first thing I was asked for was my credit card number. Here in Canada, I am asked for my health care number. A couple years ago I had some health issues that required visiting various health care providers from doctors to specialized scanners to surgeons a total 32 times. Not a single penny did I have to pay for thieve services including 5 days of hospital stays.
I wonder what some unfortunate us citizen that did not have company health plans would have to pay.
1bwana1 wrote:
I am confident that one or another indegent Healthcare programs reimbursed the care providers for your Brother's treatment. I am also guessing that since he was indegent his poor Healthcare choices are reflected in his other life choices.
Once again it is all about personal choice. If you are not succeeding here you likely wouldn't have succeeded anywhere. Complaints complaining otherwise are just trying to excuse your failure.
Well, thank you for that lecture.
I wasn't looking for any sympathy, and it is clear my brother made some poor choices, although perhaps not as you envision from your lofty perch. He was incredibly intelligent and spent most of his life around people with money, many of whom also made questionable choices. Not surprising as the general aviation ecosystem tends to attract dreamers and wheeler dealers. He also had an angle for everything and thought health insurance was a sucker's bet. Who would guess, he also greatly admired 45.
chez wrote:
I’ve had two experiences with the US health care. My wife broke an arm in Hawaii and I lost a tooth cap in Atlanta, Both times the first thing I was asked for was my credit card number. Here in Canada, I am asked for my health care number. A couple years ago I had some health issues that required visiting various health care providers from doctors to specialized scanners to surgeons a total 32 times. Not a single penny did I have to pay for thieve services including 5 days of hospital stays.
I wonder what some unfortunate us citizen that did not have company health plans would have to pay....Show more →
Your experience of having to pay for services out of pocket while a visitor to a Country where you are neither a citizen nor covered by insurance is not reflective of health care for those that are. I am guessing that visitors to Canada would have a similar experience. See below:
Foreign visitors to Canada can access healthcare services, but coverage and costs vary significantly.
Emergency Services
Visitors can receive emergency medical care in hospitals.
Payment is typically required upfront, as most provincial health plans do not cover foreign visitors.
Travel Insurance
It is highly recommended for foreign visitors to obtain travel insurance.
Insurance can cover medical expenses, including hospital stays, doctor visits, and emergency services.
Costs
Without insurance, medical costs can be high. A single hospital visit can range from hundreds to thousands of Canadian dollars.
Prescription medications are also not covered for visitors and can be expensive.[
chez wrote:
I wonder what some unfortunate us citizen that did not have company health plans would have to pay.
Only about 53% of people in the U.S. are covered by employer based Health Insurance. Yet, 92% do have insurance. The vast majority of the rest are probably of some class that is covered by a one or another Government program. If not so covered they are likely here illegally. Still the law requires that they be provided emergency care when needed whether they can pay or not.
The U.S. Healthcare system is inefficient in how its bills are paid. Like the immigration system we would be better off if the Politicians just did the work and created a sensible system. Unfortunately as these issues have persisted my whole life I am not optimistic that it will be done.
Taperwing wrote:
Well, thank you for that lecture.
I wasn't looking for any sympathy, and it is clear my brother made some poor choices, although perhaps not as you envision from your lofty perch. He was incredibly intelligent and spent most of his life around people with money, many of whom also made questionable choices. Not surprising as the general aviation ecosystem tends to attract dreamers and wheeler dealers. He also had an angle for everything and thought health insurance was a sucker's bet. Who would guess, he also greatly admired 45.
It wasn't meant as a lecture. I agree wealth and education are not indicative in themselves of people who make good personal choices. I know many very wealthy, educated people who have made complete messes out of their live. I have a lot of experience in private aviation as a pilot, and as an owner of planes during my lifetime.
I am not an admirer of 45 as a person, but not a hater either. I try to I judge the position by policy and achievement, not personality. He makes that more difficult than most.
1bwana1 wrote:
Your experience of having to pay for services out of pocket while a visitor to a Country where you are neither a citizen nor covered by insurance is not reflective of health care for those that are. I am guessing that visitors to Canada would have a similar experience. See below:
Foreign visitors to Canada can access healthcare services, but coverage and costs vary significantly.
Emergency Services
Visitors can receive emergency medical care in hospitals.
Payment is typically required upfront, as most provincial health plans do not cover foreign visitors.
Travel Insurance
It is highly recommended for foreign visitors to obtain travel insurance.
Insurance can cover medical expenses, including hospital stays, doctor visits, and emergency services.
Costs
Without insurance, medical costs can be high. A single hospital visit can range from hundreds to thousands of Canadian dollars.
Prescription medications are also not covered for visitors and can be expensive.[
Only about 53% of people in the U.S. are covered by employer based Health Insurance. Yet, 92% do have insurance. The vast majority of the rest are probably of some class that is covered by a one or another Government program. If not so covered they are likely here illegally. Still the law requires that they be provided emergency care when needed whether they can pay or not.
The U.S. Healthcare system is inefficient in how its bills are paid. Like the immigration system we would be better off if the Politicians just did the work and created a sensible system. Unfortunately as these issues have persisted my whole life I am not optimistic that it will be done....Show more →
Your first point…they had no idea I was not a us citizen…enrolling us they asked for a credit card number. So your view is not correct…they asked for credit card without knowing I’m Canadian.
Your second point…having insurance and being insured to cover all costs are totally different matters. I worked with a guy from Georgia that was 75 when I retired at 57 and I asked him when he plans to retire. He told me he can’t as through work he is covered by a private insurance that pays for his wife’s expensive medicine. Without the private insurance he said he could not afford the medical bills for his wife…so he keeps working way past his retirement age just so he is covered for the medical bills. I’m sure he would be covered for some of the costs through waterever us coverage there was…but obviously not enough.
Saying 92% of the people do have insurance is a little bit misleading if that insurance does not cover the medical bills and people must sell their retirement just to survive.
chez wrote:
Your first point…they had no idea I was not a us citizen…enrolling us they asked for a credit card number. So your view is not correct…they asked for credit card without knowing I’m Canadian.
Your second point…having insurance and being insured to cover all costs are totally different matters. I worked with a guy from Georgia that was 75 when I retired at 57 and I asked him when he plans to retire. He told me he can’t as through work he is covered by a private insurance that pays for his wife’s expensive medicine. Without the private insurance he said he could not afford the medical bills for his wife…so he keeps working way past his retirement age just so he is covered for the medical bills. I’m sure he would be covered for some of the costs through waterever us coverage there was…but obviously not enough.
Saying 92% of the people do have insurance is a little bit misleading if that insurance does not cover the medical bills and people must sell their retirement just to survive....Show more →
You are just be your usual difficult self now.
They asked for a credit card to cover whatever was not covered by your insurance. You would not be charged until your deductibles and co-pays were known, That is normal. Depending on what kind of insurance you had, and what was needed this could be zero. Almost all Health insurances in the U.S. have a maximum out of pocket annual amount that will not break most peoples bank.
You would have been asked for a credit card in Canada as well if you were not a citizen and not covered by National Health.
I don't understand your friends problem at all. At his age they should be covered by Medicare. Eligibility starts at 65 years old. The base price of Medicare would be less than $200/mo unless he is a high income earner. Then he pays a penalty that could bring it up by a maximum of $560/month. But to get there you must be making over $500,000/year so its still affordable. Then you can by a supplement that basically say, "if Medicare doesn't pay it we will". This policy pays the deductibles and co pays of the underlying Medicare policy. This is the kind of policy I have. Moreover, you are entitled to these supplemental policies as long as you exercise that right when you first sign up to Medicare. . You cannot be refused based on medical history or risk. In the last year I have had over $1,000,000 in claims for healthcare. Besides my approximately $8,000 a year in total premiums on insurances I have had to pay exactly zero other dollars. I get notices explaining what was paid on my behalf, but never a bill to pay. I keep this in force in the U.S. as well as my full coverage with National health in Italy, and a Concierge medicine policy there so the Government is not in charge of who i see when, and what services I want to get. I get t use the best Doctors, and stay in private luxury hospitals which a really really nice.
As usual with these anecdotal stories like the ones you are telling, they just don't add up. But what is for sure is that if you earn over $500,000 a year, your $8,000/yr premium for full coverage is much less that you are paying for National Health in any Country I am aware of. Plus you can choose your Doctor, hospital, and providers, and no board is analysing what you can have done weighing it against available resources or deciding for you how long you have to wait. It is on demand, where and when you want it. No idea what your friend was telling you. I am 73 years old. Still working and could be covered by my Company's private policy, or my Wife's company's private insurance, or by Medicare. I choose Medicare with a supplement because it is more comprehensive, and less expensive than any private policy available.
I think very few Americans travel to Canada to get medical care. But many Canadians do come to the U.S. and pay privately for care because of delays in treatment in Canada.
In fact 42% of Canadians said they would come to the U.S. to receive treatment if they could afford it.
While it’s not known exactly how many Canadians go to the U.S. for health care, according to a poll conducted by Ipsos in March 2024, 42% of Canadians would go to the U.S. and personally pay for routine health care if needed. That’s 10% more when compared to January 2023. Of those who responded, 38% said that they would travel to the U.S. for emergency care, a number that's up 9% from the previous year.
Neither system is perfect. But be assured that Health Care in the U.S. is good, and available to pretty much all citizens if they keep themselves informed on their options, and make good choices.
