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Archive 2025 · With Ai do we really need high res FF cameras?

  
 
EB-1
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p.2 #1 · With Ai do we really need high res FF cameras?


LostLensCap wrote:
And capturing the image is what most of us find fun with photography. But, when technology makes capturing images no more challenging than blinking ones eyes, what will be the point?


AI can help with AF and exposures can take advantage of noise reduction or other PP, but that's mostly a quantitative change in the ability to capture images. 50 years ago people were arguing if autoexposure was cheating.
Maybe if they built a transporter to get me to the location at exactly the right place and time in history it would be more groundbreaking. As it is, figuring out where to go, planning it 6-18 months ahead of time, getting all the visas, permits, in-country guides, logistics, and then there is the pain and suffering of slogging through sand, mud, ice and snow, dealing with heat and cold and mosquitos, other parasites, etc. those are the real challenges. Figuring out how to PP is a far lesser challenge.

EBH



May 17, 2025 at 01:44 PM
JasonTheBirder
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p.2 #2 · With Ai do we really need high res FF cameras?


Probably 95% of people will disagree with me. Don't care at all. But, I don't consider using AI upscaling photography any more. It interpolates using data from other photos from completely different scenes, and thus some of the resulting areas in the upscaled photo will contain stuff that is from unrelated scenes. For example, a bird photo that is missing some feather detail will now have feather detail using interpolations derived from other birds. Sometimes the interpolations can be quite aggressive and obvious, and other times it just seems normal. Regardless, categorically, I don't consider that to be photography at all, just graphic art whose first step was photography.

Moreover, in my opinion, photo upscaling, while it can be used conservatively with care, I think it has a net negative impact on photography. And I think the same of denoise AI – which I do not use. And I think that for two reasons. First, it is built upon the assumption that photographer should no longer be satisfied with what can be obtained using light through lenses projected onto a sensor, along with algorithms that are oblivious to the high-level content such as traditional denoising. It implies that we must crowdsource the ideal and go beyond photography to make everything into a plastic perfection.

And second, supporting AI itself supports its more aggressive forms, which will only evolve over time, and whose ultimate goal is to make everything about the final image and final product. Supporting any AI development means supporting a body of knowledge that can also be used to produce new generative AI technologies whose ultimate aim of soulless image generation spits in the face of what photography is all about.

Yep, people can enjoy using AI denoise or AI upscale. Yep, they can live in their world where they think it's a harmless activity that provides only value if used with intelligence and care. Nevertheless, photography as a social activity is still something I also think important, and AI technologies go against that. And no doubt, an AI-denoised image at ISO 51,200 can look beautiful. I won't deny that. When I see one, I do find them pretty, but I don't consider it photography, but instead an AI-assisted redrawing based on a noisy photo. (Lest one argue confusedly that AI these days is also AI based, let me remind you that there is a qualitative difference between the two. Autofocus does not alter an image that could have theoretically be obtained using manual focus. AI denoising does, since an AI-denoised photo is never identical to one taken in stronger light.)

So, give me my high-res FF camera. If my photos are noisy or too small when cropped, I'll just attempt to use longer shutter speeds or gasp, be happy even if I don't get my photo for the day. AI companies can take their fancy trained product that couldn't exist without millions of existing images, and shove it.



May 17, 2025 at 02:32 PM
bernardl
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p.2 #3 · With Ai do we really need high res FF cameras?


You are course entitled to your opinion, but:
- AI isn’t a coherent entity, it’s a scientific domain that is extremely diverse in the techniques it uses even if there are some common characteristics
- buying a DxO license doesn’t contribute the least bit to the development of « AI ». Certainly not the the fundamental research that may lead to a next transformational breakthrough nor to the dominance of the large players that may change society using refinements of existing science (typically transformers based generative neural networks)
- we don’t know exactly what flavor of AI is used by DxO/other « AI » based NR functions as they are closed source but I suspect it’s a form of RAG convolution neural network that is indeed trained on a wide set of images but 1. is mostly influenced by the image at hand (the RaG part) and 2. only inherits from the millions of images it was trained on a set of statistical parameters that basically give for each pixel a likelihood of luminance and color. So claiming that using AI NR mixes your image with others is an interpretation of the facts that sounds disconnected from the most likely reality of the math. Besides the number of source images that causes a strong dilution, neural networks use non linear functions that further disconnect the output from the input of each neurone.

My view remains that we shouldn’t treat the same way such applications of AI technologies and generative AI.

Cheers,
Bernard



May 17, 2025 at 06:38 PM
JasonTheBirder
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p.2 #4 · With Ai do we really need high res FF cameras?


bernardl wrote:
RAG convolution neural network that is indeed trained on a wide set of images but 1. is mostly influenced by the image at hand (the RaG part) and 2. only inherits from the millions of images it was trained on a set of statistical parameters that basically give for each pixel a likelihood of luminance and color. So claiming that using AI NR mixes your image with others is an interpretation of the facts that sounds disconnected from the most likely reality of the math.


You bring up some good points, and there is a grey area for sure. And certainly, I didn't mean to claim it mixes distinct, contiguous pieces of imagery together, but rather predicts as you say nearby pixels from other pixels. So, you won't find pieces of other birds in your birds in reality, but it does interpolate nonetheless based on the patterns from other birds. I already came up with an example where it interpolates without a doubt (https://photographylife.com/noise-reduction-vs-capturing-more-light) and with more parameters in the model, it can certainly get to the level where the interpolate and creation of artifacts is real.

And yes, I absolutely agree that it is nuanced as you say, but I do feel that it is straddling the boundary. I do disagree with this, though:

buying a DxO license doesn’t contribute the least bit to the development of « AI ».

I think it does, even if not directly. Because those that work at DxO could theoretically use their experience and go onto other AI-related jobs (which is very likely) and apply their general machine-learning knowledge to other AI-based applications, including hybrid generative/ML type systems.



May 17, 2025 at 07:07 PM
Nick Dakota
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p.2 #5 · With Ai do we really need high res FF cameras?


I'm going to take a more positive thought on this. This pending doom will make real photography more fun, rewarding and meaningful than ever.


May 17, 2025 at 08:56 PM
LostLensCap
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p.2 #6 · With Ai do we really need high res FF cameras?


JasonTheBirder wrote:
Probably 95% of people will disagree with me. Don't care at all. But, I don't consider using AI upscaling photography any more. It interpolates using data from other photos from completely different scenes, and thus some of the resulting areas in the upscaled photo will contain stuff that is from unrelated scenes. For example, a bird photo that is missing some feather detail will now have feather detail using interpolations derived from other birds. Sometimes the interpolations can be quite aggressive and obvious, and other times it just seems normal. Regardless, categorically, I don't consider that to be photography at
...Show more
Do you edit your shots with any photo editing program?




May 17, 2025 at 10:17 PM
bernardl
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p.2 #7 · With Ai do we really need high res FF cameras?


JasonTheBirder wrote:
You bring up some good points, and there is a grey area for sure. And certainly, I didn't mean to claim it mixes distinct, contiguous pieces of imagery together, but rather predicts as you say nearby pixels from other pixels. So, you won't find pieces of other birds in your birds in reality, but it does interpolate nonetheless based on the patterns from other birds. I already came up with an example where it interpolates without a doubt (https://photographylife.com/noise-reduction-vs-capturing-more-light) and with more parameters in the model, it can certainly get to the level where the interpolate and creation of artifacts
...Show more

Yes, this is a possibility, but it will not make any difference whatsoever. DxO is a tiny company and China alone is training every year hundreds of thousands of engineers among which a significant % learn machine learning. Same in India. And those students work way harder than the small silver spoon fed elite from wealthy families joining top universities in the US.

The wave is completely unavoidable.

AI cannot be fought, the only reasonable approach is to live with it the best possible way.

Cheers,
Bernard



May 17, 2025 at 10:20 PM
LostLensCap
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p.2 #8 · With Ai do we really need high res FF cameras?


True, Ai cannot be fought and once it gets into quantum computers, if it hasn't already, all bets will be off.




May 17, 2025 at 10:58 PM
RoamingScott
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p.2 #9 · With Ai do we really need high res FF cameras?


Remember to say please and thank you to your friendly AI


May 17, 2025 at 11:00 PM
EB-1
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p.2 #10 · With Ai do we really need high res FF cameras?


AI as a whole is not the same as "AI" noise reduction or image processing. It's a tool like anything else. I'm pretty sure that Topaz or DXO will not take over my computer or my life. It's not Skynet.

EBH



May 18, 2025 at 01:42 AM
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