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Archive 2005 · For those who doubt 20Dkit

  
 
azurephoto
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p.3 #1 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


I love "...what this lense can do.." threads, myself! Here's one I always use to showcase this lense:
http://img200.exs.cx/img200/9995/buggy6sn.jpg



Mar 01, 2005 at 07:54 AM
mdude85
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p.3 #2 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


slau wrote:
Am I at FM or dp@#$% ?? From reading this thread, make me wonder where are we going.


if we were at dpreview the responses would be like, "oh wow, this picture is the most fantastic I have ever seen. it evokes such great emotion. I'm not going to give it any suggestions for improvement, but only to say that you're the best photographer I have seen in years and keep up the good work!" I like DPreview sometimes but let's be real people!

The picture is not out of focus, the DOF is just shallow ... however, the OP should have focused on an area with high contrast to show sharpness (such as on the smaller diamonds), not on the gold heart itself, which doesn't show sharpness because it's very smooth. The kit lens is a very nice thing to have but this picture doesn't particularly show it. The OP should check out the famous comparison of the 18-55 vs the 17-40L.



Mar 01, 2005 at 08:58 AM
sols
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p.3 #3 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


Jeremy, that's a nice shot! Did you stick anything on to the front of the lens, or is just the lens?


Mar 01, 2005 at 09:03 AM
azurephoto
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p.3 #4 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


sols wrote:
Jeremy, that's a nice shot! Did you stick anything on to the front of the lens, or is just the lens?



Thanks sols for the kind words - actually, I'd got home when I'd first got the cam (300D +kit lens), made sure the battery was charged up, and immediately went out shooting. Nothing but the lense on the camera, in .jpg mode, fully zoomed, even.



Mar 01, 2005 at 09:14 AM
toonhorse
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p.3 #5 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


I'd like to thank The Big Bad for turning this thread constructive. Like all other posters have already said, when stopped down, the 18-55 performs fine. I don't think the original photo illustrates the positives of this lens very well.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v373/toonhorse/3tulips.jpg



Mar 01, 2005 at 09:49 AM
John_T
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p.3 #6 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


Right, thanks BB for your balanced, straight-forward and correct attitude. May I suggest you check the battery in your keyboard?

Tim, nothing wrong with expressing your exuberence, though you will probably be more wary next time. Just ignore the barge-ins and bored DPRers looking for trouble around here.



Mar 01, 2005 at 10:38 AM
whitejon
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p.3 #7 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


The original post was misinterpreted by most folks, and some of the original comments were terse, and I interpreted them as arrogant in such flavor, and insecue.

Don't go running back now saying you weren't slamming the picture, knowing you could have done so much better. Some of the initial comments were way off context, and it was offensive to the poster.

I'll respond with my comments about this any time I am able, as the purity of the forum depends more on keeping snobbishness and offensiveness out than it does on censoring reactions to such.

Watch your language and attitude. Write with your own sensitivities in mind; think of your language coming at you.



Mar 01, 2005 at 10:39 AM
The Big Bad
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p.3 #8 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


Whitejon, get over it already dude. Your making it into a bigger deal than anyone here, the original poster included.

"Don't go running back now saying you weren't slamming the picture, knowing you could have done so much better. Some of the initial comments were way off context, and it was offensive to the poster"

I dont think anyones saying that. The shots were crap, are crap and will continue to be crap if you ask me. Im not chaning my opinon and I certainly hope no one else is either. The OP even stated later in the thread that it wasnt a very good shot. Other people posted some better shots, people realize that the kit lens works alright, though I still dont think many people here were saying that. DPR is the land of "if its not L, its not good" but here people are opening minded. We focus, pardon the pun on producing good photos, not the " I have more L's than you so I'm a better photog" club.


"I'll respond with my comments about this any time I am able, as the purity of the forum depends more on keeping snobbishness and offensiveness out than it does on censoring reactions to such"


Im sure we all need to give Jon a huge THANK YOU for protecting the purity of this forum. Sorry man but thats the dumbest thing Ive heard in this fhread.

Look man, you've been here long enough to hopefully know the general attitudes of this forum. If you think its snobbish or offensive then Id suggest you go find yourself a nicer forum.

If anyone new thinks its snobbish or offensive your welcome to go somewhere else too.

I'll tell you this though, this forum has one of the best, most supportive, honest and helpful user groups of any forums, anywhere, no doubt.

Seriously folks, if your intrested in IMPROVING your photography and getting some honest feedback, this is the place for you to be. I'm never going to sugar coat it for you, hold your hand like you were a little kid and say what you did was great, stroke your ego and tell you a bunch of lies if you dont deserve it. I expect everyone here to treat me the same way. If I post a shot that needs work, you all better tell me. I count on that feedback each game I shoot so that I can take those suggestions and tips into the next game and produce better shots.

If you do something nice though I'll be the first to congratulation you on it though and I'm confident thats how everyone else here feels as well.

I'll promise you all this, you may not like the constructive critisim right now, you might not like to hear that your DOF is wrong, you have a color cast, the compostion is bad, etc but down the road, when your producing some fine photographs and you look back on those shots, you will say "my god, did I really thing those shots were good ?"

I challenge any of you new shooters to do that. Make a folder, put your 10 best shots that you have in there and dont look at them for a few months. Then go back and look at them and see what you think.



Mar 01, 2005 at 11:23 AM
Aragosh
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p.3 #9 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


I agree with Jon

Why does anybody bother to show some of you something if all you are going to do is critisize how much better you can do it.
This pic will do well in any mail catelogue, and will definitely be hard to beat for color and tonal value.

Notice that for the price, this kit-lens performs better than some macro "pro" fotos I have seen in some "PROFESSIONAL" magazines and lens brochures.

I think that Tim hit it on the spot. Well done



Mar 01, 2005 at 11:33 AM
Pavel
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p.3 #10 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


I'm with Big bad here. More than that, it's vital that we put truth first, otherwise the opinion is meaningless and no person learns much. If you think a mediocre shot being called mediocre is an insult I can't do anything about it. The whole idea of learning is that you take whatever level you are at and subject it to scrutiny by your peers or better yet by those that are better than you. While the affirming comments may feel good, it's those that point out the flaws that are the jewels. They let us raises the bar. If you don't like it ... please at least give the courtesy back that you don't come accross with the acusations that a person who is taking the time to comment is "slaming" the other person. That is what drags this down. The lens in question is a good enough lens. Stoped down to f8 it is fine. it is a slow lens with bad build quality. A friend has one and didn't take my advice to buy a 70-220 f4 for the sports he needed to shoot. He instead bought a 28-105 for 75 bucks. He thought I was snobby in saying that the image quality would be substandard and the reach not enough for soccer. This morning he was asking me why the shots from the weekend looked so out of focus. They were in perfect focus ( all the way to the trees ) they just were taken with what he had paid for and it looked like vaseline on the lens. Point? Most of us here know lenses. We work with expensive and cheap lenses. The quality of the kit lens is pretty good and outstanding against the price. Now shoot the same shot with it and then the canon 50 2.5 macro. Now you will see a difference and see what great sharpness, geometric perfection and contrast really can be. The whole point is that the first picture was out of focus in my book. I didn't slam anyone ... unless you call any disenting opinions "slamming". It's not a shot that is best at illustrating the good qualities of the lens. End of story. Now the shots from terriba, azzurephoto and toonhorse are. They are impressive and there is no critique I can give that will help them raise the bar in my mind. So ... good shot guys! The first shot .... I thought I could help. Sorry to the folks that don't like my contribution. Sorry that next time, you will get the truth from me. The forum deserves the truth. Oh and feel welcome to "slam" my shots when I do post them. Just tell me exactly what it is that stinks. It only hurts a minute


Mar 01, 2005 at 11:51 AM
The Big Bad
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p.3 #11 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


Why put something on here just to show off though ? What good is that going to do for your photography ?

Those post are just plain stupid if you ask me.

Its a bunch of folks with little ego's and no self esteem wanting to hear how great they are.

Its basically saying " look how good I am" "look at what expensive gear I can afford"


Its real simply folks, if you dont want people judging your work, dont put it online. Show it only to your Mom if you just want someone to ooo and ahh.

Every person on this forum has an opinion and every shot we see we judge. Every movie we see, every song we hear, meal we eat. Thtas just human nature.

You make a movie, people the country over are going to review it, some will like it, some will hate it. You put out a novel, some will like it, some will hate it. You take a photograph some will like it, some will hate it.

If you cant deal with that, then keep your stuff private. Theres nothing wrong with that at all. This forum is a public venue with people from all over the world viewing your work. You've got to realize that before you post



Mar 01, 2005 at 11:52 AM
Pavel
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p.3 #12 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


aragposh .... not to be too confrontational ... but that picture would not make it to "any" catalogue. It would get one glance on by the editor and the delete key. Sorry, but the bar is much higher. Perhaps someone that does this for a living can post what pro standards are like for jewlery here so that we all can see the difference. My last ... on this topic.


Mar 01, 2005 at 11:57 AM
mt-m
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p.3 #13 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


whitejon wrote:
The original post was misinterpreted by most folks, and some of the original comments were terse, and I interpreted them as arrogant in such flavor, and insecue.

Don't go running back now saying you weren't slamming the picture, knowing you could have done so much better. Some of the initial comments were way off context, and it was offensive to the poster.

I'll respond with my comments about this any time I am able, as the purity of the forum depends more on keeping snobbishness and offensiveness out than it does on censoring reactions to such.

Watch your language and attitude. Write with
...Show more

The original post was titled "For those who doubt 20Dkit". To me, this is a way of saying "If you doubt the 20d kit, here, look at the great picture that the kit and I took". To top this off, the picture is mediocre at best.

As for your looking out for "purity" of these forums - I wish you luck in this self-appointed quest.



Mar 01, 2005 at 12:21 PM
toonhorse
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p.3 #14 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


*sigh, let's all move on. There is no way the 18-55 for $100 is going to out perform a fixed macro lens (be it the 50, 100, or 180). This argument is simply ridiculous. It is possible to take a poor shot with any of those macro lenses, but that's not my point. We all take bad shots, we all take decent shots, some of us (not me) take amazing shots....the only reason we should be posting is to hear critiques. I get enough oohh and ahhs from my wife, what I really need is a professional to tell me how to improve. It's an online community, anything you write is going to be looked at and possibly criticized. If you can't take criticism I really don't think you should be posting to an online forum. Criticism in itself is not rude. I'm with Pavel and BB on this one.


Mar 01, 2005 at 12:30 PM
whitejon
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p.3 #15 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


Just like I said the first time, Big Bad, show some courtesy and, in your case, self-respect. You have one opinion: yours. It tries to swim amidst thousands of others. Many of those others are stated more respectfully and less brashly, too, with proper spelling and punctuation.

You're rambling all over the place, missing the point almost entirely regarding the original post.

Unbelievable.

I won't be opening this thread again, so don't bother addressing me.

In general, one should read his own posts and ask himself honestly if he wants others talking to him that way. It's simple.



Mar 01, 2005 at 12:38 PM
The Big Bad
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p.3 #16 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


Jon, lets talk about courtesy for a moment shall we....

What do you contribute here ? What do you contribute to this thread ?

"purity" and being the great defender of the helpless. Good for you but if you really aching to do some good, go volunteer at a soup kitchen or help people who really need it if that sort of thing is important to you. Being the great intern forum defender is just plain stupid


You dont like my opinions that fine. Leave, I hope you do in fact because you obviously dont have anything usefull to say about photography or the forum. Why not comment on the photo or help the guy improve his technique. Your too busy worrying about his fragile little feelings than to actually give a damn to take the time to help him out.

I try my best to provide useful, honest and informative advice day in day out around here and any member here will confirm that fact. What have you done ?

I'll tell you whats unbelievable, that fact that you have nothing better to counter my arguments with than the my SPELLING AND PUNCTUATION ! ?

that is weak man.......



Mar 01, 2005 at 12:52 PM
The Big Bad
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p.3 #17 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


I guess maybe we need a new forum here at FM, the "hugs and warm feelings" thread, " or stroke my ego" Im sure Jon would make a great moderator for it.

Why come here to talk about photography when we can instead talk about how we feel inside...... I know thats why I come to this forum. Im sick of all you people just wanting to talk about my camera gear. Im tired of getting PM's all the time from users asking questions or thanking me for a post I made and how it helped them.

I swear, I get 5-10 of those type of PM's every day and not once does anyone stop to want to talk about me. What about my feelings people.....

I think I need a good cry and a hug.....



Mar 01, 2005 at 01:00 PM
traveler
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p.3 #18 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


I can certainly understand his enthusiasm for the camera. However of course every DSLR Canon has made so far (and I've had several) in which I have produced a half dozen or so jewelry catalogs and numerous shoots for jewelry web sites, the 20D does just fine. What you are attempting to do is more often done with a competent Macro lens, but as you can see the kit lens does fine, with the exception you needed to stop it down considerably from where you had it (somewhere between F11-F16 would have been a good start) for a more appropriate depth of field. Otherwise you had the right intention. Glad you're happy with the camera. Indeed it is very capable. Now go out and shoot something else with it. :-)


Mar 01, 2005 at 01:08 PM
BeyondHelp
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p.3 #19 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


Now I know why places like Sports Shooter have to have a member sponsor someone to post on their site. This is FM.......NOT DPR!!!!!!

When I post a shot, I want the real deal. If I want my ego stroked, I'll show it to my children.
Oh....by the way, my children did not think it was a good pic/post either....sorry.

That is not meant to be funny, cruel, sarcastic, or anything other than SERIOUS!!!!!

If anyone has to get defensive about one of their shots, please, please, please think about what you are defending. I don't know most of you, I am not going to make fun of you behind your back. If you have issuses please find someone to talk to who will tell you what YOU want to hear somewhere else.

This forum is VERY SPECIAL, thanks to FRED and a lot of members who try very hard to keep it that way. And I for one will not let it be ruined by people who will tell me what I want to hear.



Mar 01, 2005 at 01:54 PM
Benjamin Munn
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p.3 #20 · For those who doubt 20Dkit


Ok, here is my take on all of this. Constructive criticism is what we all should be looking for when we post a picture in an online forum. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and the OP should accept that. Here is the problem that I personally have with the way this one was handled. Too many replies that don't help. If I ask the question:

What do you think about this photo...........

and the responses I get are:



?

Any camera can do that.

Not the cameras fault, it's your fault.

out of focus!

the depth of field is too shallow. You need to use an apeture around F11 for a shot like this if you want the entire stone to be in focus. Try that and then repost the results.

That's just too much to weed through. I don't think that people need to be coddled but since when is civility such a bad thing. Flame on



Mar 01, 2005 at 02:10 PM
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