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Archive 2025 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...

  
 
JimKasson
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p.2 #1 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


Jack Flesher wrote:
You need to do some more homework on digital color science. Simply stated, to maintain smooth hue gradations between colors in larger gamuts, you need more colors; and greater bit depth provides precisely that. What you're suggesting is akin to to claiming you can stretch 100 pennies and create a 100 dollar bill.


At best, in a situation where read noise is <1LSB, you only need enough precision to count the electrons.



Apr 23, 2025 at 10:54 AM
Jack Flesher
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p.2 #2 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


RoamingScott wrote:
Most importantly, I look at the work of people who swear by the need for 16bit.

I'll just say I remain THOROUGHLY unconvinced.


I actually won't disagree with you for *most* work, including mine. Where I saw 16-bit help, was doing precise-color imaging product photography. Getting "Pepsi blue" accurate is a traditional war-story for product photographers, but Pepsi wasn't the only client hyper critical on color. The other theater I found it significantly beneficial in was fine-art reproduction -- a total PITA market. For my casual landscape imaging, I would agree it's virtually irrelevant. For catalog/model shots in a controlled light studio? Here it depended on the client. Back when I did that type of work, lesser digital cams were 10 or 12 bit and had relatively horrible skin-tone issues, so if a client was coming to you new, it was a paramount concern. Here is when MF digital backs came into their own; and for me PhaseOne made life easy -- and to be clear, the first P-Ones and Hassy's were realistically only outputting 14-bit anyway. But compared to traditional 10 or 12 from DSLRs back then, those extra 2 bits were indeed a notable gift. I haven't done any serious model/catalog work in years, so couldn't comment decisively, but "suspect" 14-bit is more than adequate for most needs. And of course the added flexibility of today's pro-level, 14-bit DSLR's will render more images than the best MF cameras in 16-bit, and at the end of the day in this arena more choices for the client is probably more important than occasional and subtly more precise color...



Apr 23, 2025 at 11:56 AM
JimKasson
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p.2 #3 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


gdanmitchell wrote:
- Here, though, we get to the difference between what the numbers tell us (that due to that last bit being an approximation, inaccuracies are necessarily introduced, that the representation of luminosity in color channels is not perfectly accurate, and that extraordinary pushing of those values can amplified differences) and what we see in actual photographs (not much at all, if anything, actually).



More bits means more precision, not necessarily more accuracy.




Apr 23, 2025 at 01:50 PM
johnvanr
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p.2 #4 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


chez wrote:
In general I look at the people that shoot MF and remain thoroughly unconvinced.


I have a MF setup as well, but I do share your sentiment. I find the same true for some other systems, though, and put it down to narrow user bases.



Apr 23, 2025 at 02:45 PM
Jack Flesher
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p.2 #5 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


There’s another part to this discussion and it’s rendering intents and black-point compensation. Whenever we leave the cameras native profile and put the image into something else, rendering intent and BPC can play significant roles in appearance vs accuracy.


Apr 23, 2025 at 03:16 PM
jeffbuzz
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p.2 #6 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


I wish I could see in 16-bit. Alas, unless you've had bionic eyes installed, mere humans are limited to ~8-bit vision. That's why the internet looks so good to us.


Apr 23, 2025 at 05:24 PM
Jack Flesher
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p.2 #7 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


jeffbuzz wrote:
I wish I could see in 16-bit. Alas, unless you've had bionic eyes installed, mere humans are limited to ~8-bit vision. That's why the internet looks so good to us.


While what you say is true, rgb displays cannot render colors in the same way our eye sees them, and this is precisely why we do regularly see banding in 8-bit images, especially visible in ones that get poorly processed. This is specifically where the extra bits come into play, filling in and smoothing out those step-gaps with accurate ‘tweener’ colors to where the steps or gaps are no longer visible.

BTW, it works the same way with digitized music; more bits are better.



Apr 23, 2025 at 06:11 PM
RustyBug
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p.2 #8 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


gdanmitchell wrote:
- the difference between 14-bit and 16-bit is immaterial unless you are doing some fairly significant pushing in post.


That has always been my point that when pushing heavy math, a difference can be realized ... and people often respond with "it's just marketing goo" ... frequently, citing Jim, to dismiss such consideration.

It is a function of the amount of math being applied vs. whether or not that resultant math is breaching other thresholds (i.e. 8 bit / 10 bit / etc.) of presentation.

So, now we have Dan and Jim indicating there IS a difference, from an objective stance (evidenced, in edge use case).
The stance on whether or not that is meaningful to someone's work is a different matter ... and, yes, that is subjective, relative to use case and temperament.




Apr 23, 2025 at 08:34 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #9 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


RustyBug wrote:
That has always been my point that when pushing heavy math, a difference can be realized ... and people often respond with "it's just marketing goo" ... frequently, citing Jim, to dismiss such consideration.

It is a function of the amount of math being applied vs. whether or not that resultant math is breaching other thresholds (i.e. 8 bit / 10 bit / etc.) of presentation.

So, now we have Dan and Jim indicating there IS a difference, from an objective stance (evidenced, in edge use case).
The stance on whether or not that is meaningful to someone's work is a different matter
...Show more

Just because there is a difference it doesn't follow that the difference is perceptible or meaningful.



Apr 23, 2025 at 11:52 PM
RustyBug
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p.2 #10 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


gdanmitchell wrote:
Just because there is a difference it doesn't follow that the difference is perceptible or meaningful.


And, just because it isn't meaningful to your use case, doesn't negate the difference from being meaningful to others in a different use case.

Which is a different matter than to tell folks it is only "marketing goo" ... and that there is no difference, at all.

Walk it backwards, if you must, but the facts remain that folks have said there was "no difference" ... and there is. Whether or not someone gives a rat's backside about the difference for their use case or not, that's a personal assessment of whether or not that difference is useful to them. That's different from its existence.

I mean ... why on earth would a mfr go to the trouble of making the camera operate with such a slow readout speed to achieve the 16 bit reads ... if it had "no difference" at all. Even if it was just for "marketing goo" ... do you think any respectable engineer / mfr would intentionally reduce the performance (i.e. readout speed / rolling shutter / fps / etc.) ... for "no difference" at all.

That's totally non-sequitur. There's a reason why they engineering it to 16 bit ... and it wasn't for it to be only "marketing goo".

Limited use case for when it is meaningful, sure. No difference, never ... then, there's no reason to build it and reduce the performance. Most will continue to dissent ... carry on.






Apr 24, 2025 at 12:23 AM
ruthenium
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p.2 #11 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


@RustyBug - thank you for starting this thread (and thanks to all who contributed their knowledge)! I have learned a few useful things about the color bit depth (FM is a good place to learn!). I enjoyed the bit from Jim on that more precision does not generally mean more accuracy.
In the link from Jim (https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100s-ii/fujifilm-gfx-100s-ii-edr/), he was asked the question that has been asked in the above posts: "do you know the benefit of shooting in 16-bit mode on this particular camera if the EDR difference is nil? Is it just more complex / accurate color in the details?"
The response was: "I see little reason to use 16-bit precision on this camera. The black point at very short exposure appears to be somewhat more accurate, but that’s about it."
"This camera" is a reference to Fujifilm GFX 100S II EDR, however, I understand that GFX 100 II is not different.



Apr 24, 2025 at 12:45 AM
Tony Ross
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p.2 #12 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


When we render our finished image on a printer, some of the printers accept onty 8 bit data, so what matters is how accurately we can achieve those 8 bits. Some have an extended gamut through the use of additional inks, but if the data we are feeding them is only 8 bit, we can still only realise 8 bits of colour.

When we render our finished image on a screen, some screens can only show 8 bits of colour. Some can show 10 bits of colour (maybe even 12 bits of colour) - again, our output is limited.

What might limit our ability to product those 8 or 10 (or 12) bits of colour for our output?

If our image was captured at high ISO, then we might already be working with a limited dynamic range, and it doesn't matter if our output delivery is capable of 8 bit output if we're limited to 6 stops of dynamic range due to high ISO.

Or if we underexposed our image by 5 stops, even under conditions when we should have 11 stops of dynamic range - we'll only have 6 stops of image.

Or if we have a significant amount of nose - that's encompassed in the definition of dynamic range, of course.

When does 16 bit make sense? When the electron wells have sufficient capacity to make it worthwhile to measure the values to 16 bit precision. 14 bit is generally regarded as ample for full frame sensors. Heck, it wasn't until around 2007 that we got 14 bit on full frame - cameras like the original Canon 5D were 12 bit, and some cameras still operated in 12 bit mode for quite a while after that.

With the push to high megapixel counts, we get smaller pixels, with lower capacities. If you really want 16 bit, you need fewer pixels and bigger capacities - start demanding an 8 megapixel sensor if you want 16 bit :-)



Apr 24, 2025 at 05:22 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #13 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


ruthenium wrote:
@RustyBug@ - thank you for starting this thread (and thanks to all who contributed their knowledge)! I have learned a few useful things about the color bit depth (FM is a good place to learn!). I enjoyed the bit from Jim on that more precision does not generally mean more accuracy.
In the link from Jim (https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100s-ii/fujifilm-gfx-100s-ii-edr/), he was asked the question that has been asked in the above posts: "do you know the benefit of shooting in 16-bit mode on this particular camera if the EDR difference is nil? Is it just more complex / accurate color in the details?"
The
...Show more

Thanks, I appreciate you taking in the good spirit of it.



Apr 24, 2025 at 07:05 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #14 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


Tony Ross wrote:
When we render our finished image on a printer, some of the printers accept onty 8 bit data, so what matters is how accurately we can achieve those 8 bits. Some have an extended gamut through the use of additional inks, but if the data we are feeding them is only 8 bit, we can still only realise 8 bits of colour.

When we render our finished image on a screen, some screens can only show 8 bits of colour. Some can show 10 bits of colour (maybe even 12 bits of colour) - again, our output is limited.

What might
...Show more

+1 that as long as your info is north of your output threshold (i.e. you're supplying 10 bits of data-continuity to an 8 bit device, etc.), your 8 bit device isn't going to render any differently than if you are supplying 12 bit, 14 bit or 16 bits of precision, to it.

That's why the point of "heavy math" can create situations where the tonality continuity is 8 bits or less of precision. At that point, the difference in starting at 8 / 12 / 14 / 16 can influence whether or not you remain to have more than 8 bits of precision continuity. Exponential operations like Curves, multiplied by Contrast, Sharpening and other operations can stack and build to erode the continuity of mathematical precision. 16 bit simply gives you the more wiggle room for the math, than starting at 14 bit does.

To be clear, I'm not advocating that everyone needs 16 bit. Most don't. I'm only saying that there is a difference (vs. marketing goo only), and it isn't until you are cranking on the numbers that the difference does (potentially) present itself. My point is in understanding that the math has to be heavy for such difference to reveal itself, beyond the threshold of our output devices (screens, printers, etc.).

That said, if an image math isn't going to be cranked on ... yup, the difference in 16 bit vs. 14 bit, the difference will be "lost" on the limits of an 8 or 10 bit device, as it can only function to the lower level of precision, so long as there haven't been mathematical "gaps" that breach the lower bit precision (i.e. causing banding, etc.).



Apr 24, 2025 at 07:20 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #15 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


I do have a "reverse question" on the topic ...

Given that there is an understanding that the 16 bit difference is "edge" use case ... how many different use cases do you think the mfr's had in mind when they decided to engineer 16 bit capability into the camera?

It is an earnest question, but do have fun and be creative if you like. For instance, I'm not an astro shooter ... but, do astro shooters appreciate the 16 bit data as they are trying to pull color out of the abyss of their exposures, which can also be limiting / challenging for exposure times vs. ISO, etc.?

Is astro one of those "edge" use cases, where 16 bit is meaningful (to them)?

Okay, guys ... flip your noggin' on from negative Nellie, to positive Percy ... what ya got?




Apr 24, 2025 at 07:22 AM
Jack Flesher
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p.2 #16 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


There’s a reason the sRGB colorspace is limited to 8-bit; it’s so small 16-bit is irrelevant. Adobe RGB is a better example; 8-bit is mostly okay, but you can run out of tones near the edges, so 16-bit (or even 10 or 12) is welcome. We got Profoto RGB because it was huge and virtually every digital device’s color limits fit inside it with room to spare, so it was convenient for mapping all these different devices to each other. That is until we got printers that could print into the neons… Now we have P3, which is probably the best compromise to date. Regardless, highly saturated edge colors are where all the bits you can bring to the party can, do and will help. But to be clear, these are mostly colors that don’t really exist in nature, most are chemistry-based pigment creations by humans. But if you want to accurately replicate them digitally, then 16-bit capture is going to be your friend.

PS edit: It is possible to manipulate a camera’s (or other device’s) color to something outside its native capture space; and the more bits of information you have, the easier and broader those limits become.

PPS: Also, keep in mind color is three-dimensional, and realistically for the sake of understanding limitations, thinking in an HSB model is probably better than thinking in an RGB model.



Edited on Apr 24, 2025 at 09:10 AM · View previous versions



Apr 24, 2025 at 08:31 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #17 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


RustyBug wrote:
I do have a "reverse question" on the topic ...

Given that there is an understanding that the 16 bit difference is "edge" use case ... how many different use cases do you think the mfr's had in mind when they decided to engineer 16 bit capability into the camera?


To some extent, I’m not sure that they have specific “cases” in mind when they do this, at least not in the case of 14-bits to 16-bits.

In some cases, what I think is happening, is that technological capabilities that already existed have simply become feasible in the gear, so they go ahead and incorporate it even though there is no widespread demand for it. And when they do, they obviously are going to take credit for the advance.

That is not to say that I think that it is silly to keep expanding things like this. If you can and it doesn’t hurt anything, why not?



Apr 24, 2025 at 08:59 AM
JimKasson
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p.2 #18 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


Tony Ross wrote:
When we render our finished image on a printer, some of the printers accept onty 8 bit data, so what matters is how accurately we can achieve those 8 bits. Some have an extended gamut through the use of additional inks, but if the data we are feeding them is only 8 bit, we can still only realise 8 bits of colour.

When we render our finished image on a screen, some screens can only show 8 bits of colour. Some can show 10 bits of colour (maybe even 12 bits of colour) - again, our output is limited.

What might
...Show more

You are completely ignoring the tone curves. Not a good thing to do.




Apr 24, 2025 at 04:47 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #19 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


Tony Ross wrote:
When we render our finished image on a printer, some of the printers accept onty 8 bit data, so what matters is how accurately we can achieve those 8 bits. Some have an extended gamut through the use of additional inks, but if the data we are feeding them is only 8 bit, we can still only realise 8 bits of colour.

When we render our finished image on a screen, some screens can only show 8 bits of colour. Some can show 10 bits of colour (maybe even 12 bits of colour) - again, our output is limited.

What might
...Show more

I'm not going to argue strong for or against 16 bits, but...

... when the destination format only supports 8 bits, there are still good reasons to have more than 8 bits of data available at prior stages.

It is a bit like audio recording and mixing. Even if your final output has limited data, as you mix and do signal processing, you want to work with higher sampling rates and bit depths to minimize compounded rounding errors. (Basically, the idea is to keep the errors to the bits that get "thrown away" before the final output.)

Dynamic range (in photography) provides a similar sort of example. While we can't generally produce final output that has the a dynamic range as wide as that of some digital files, it is useful to have the added data so that we can retrieve it during the post-processing phase.



Apr 24, 2025 at 10:40 PM
RustyBug
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p.2 #20 · 16 bit vs. 14 bit ...


Jack Flesher wrote:
There’s a reason the sRGB colorspace is limited to 8-bit; it’s so small 16-bit is irrelevant. Adobe RGB is a better example; 8-bit is mostly okay, but you can run out of tones near the edges, so 16-bit (or even 10 or 12) is welcome. We got Profoto RGB because it was huge and virtually every digital device’s color limits fit inside it with room to spare, so it was convenient for mapping all these different devices to each other. That is until we got printers that could print into the neons… Now we have P3, which is probably
...Show more

+1 that color is where I find 14 bit to tap out and the colors begin to breakdown / artifact when pushing them hard ... at the edges, as you suggest.

While others have been ardent at suggesting that there is no difference, it's good to hear that someone recognizes that there is a realm where the difference is helpful.

I'll probably follow up with some direct contacts to Hasselblad and Fuji to get their take on this, too. Armchair forum dissension, notwithstanding ... I do want to further understand the implications / effects. I sorta know where my 14 bit files fall apart, and understand that for routine things, the 14 bit files hold up well, to remain above various thresholds. A meaningless, trivial, pedantic subject for many (likely, mostly), but advancing one's understanding and/or curiosity is something to be supported, rather than squashed (imo). From that understanding, folks can make their own assessment regarding the utility of it toward their purposes, goals and intents. For most folks ... yup, 14 bit is gonna be plenty.



Apr 25, 2025 at 08:35 AM
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