stgrove wrote:
But you asked how would you know what happens in freezing weather. I picked a close place to find out.
Mt Wilson and the Angeles National Forest is below freezing for much of the winter. Maybe a 75 min drive from the coast here.
Mt Baldy is maybe 2 hours from the coast:
Lake Cuyamaca in the winter is plenty cold enough ... and you can grab some pie in Julian.
BTW ... is that bakery (Mother's iirc) still out there in the middle of nowhere (Ramona-ish)? I know 30 years is a long time, but some things stand that test of time, better than others.
RustyBug wrote:
Lake Cuyamaca in the winter is plenty cold enough ... and you can grab some pie in Julian.
BTW ... is that bakery (Mother's iirc) still out there in the middle of nowhere (Ramona-ish)? I know 30 years is a long time, but some things stand that test of time, better than others.
I think you must be talking about Dudley's Bakery between Ramona and Julian. Yes, it is still there and as popular as ever.
I never go to the Mountains in Winter. Too cold up there!
Desmolicious wrote:
Mt Wilson and the Angeles National Forest is below freezing for much of the winter. Maybe a 75 min drive from the coast here.
Mt Baldy is maybe 2 hours from the coast:
You can see the snow from Redondo Beach. Why drive in that direction when there is snow. Snow is cold. So you know ahead of time when not to go up there. I have been no where near snow since I had to stop skiing...
bcaslis wrote:
Whether it's discontinued or not, I love my M11. If not for the M11 I would never have starting taking pictures with a Leica M. I never found the brass top and bottom plate acceptable enough to give it a try on previous M cameras. But the lighter weight, easy access for battery, and 60MP sensor were enough to make me try the M11. Honestly I think the M11 gets a bad rap online. I've found it a great camera, best haptics of any camera I've tried, and when you nail focus and exposure the images are fantastic.
Well said. Frankly, the M11 was the first digital M that really hit all my wants. The M10 was close, and I would've certainly been happy with one, but the M11 pushed it over the top for me. The stability issues folks have run into a really unfortunate, it's otherwise a well refined user experience.
1bwana1 wrote:
You can see the snow from Redondo Beach. Why drive in that direction when there is snow. Snow is cold. So you know ahead of time when not to go up there. I have been no where near snow since I had to stop skiing...
Someone told me there was a petting zoo at the top. They lied.
I just looked at the B&H listings for this camera. Good lord, is the M11-P really $9k?! And is that a pre-tariff price?
Don't pay this much for 35mm digital cameras, people. Digital cameras are basically extended disposable cameras. You get a few short years out of them before they break down or you become bored, or the new whiz bang model tempts you.
I really hope China disrupts the Leica digital camera soon. They deserve it.
I couldn’t hold a more opposite opinion. Respectfully, I don’t see anything wrong with spending on a Leica and I certainly don’t want a Chinese built rangefinder. Digital cameras aren’t any less reliable than other modern devices with screens and electronics that people spend large sums of money on.
speedgraphic wrote:
I just looked at the B&H listings for this camera. Good lord, is the M11-P really $9k?! And is that a pre-tariff price?
Don't pay this much for 35mm digital cameras, people. Digital cameras are basically extended disposable cameras. You get a few short years out of them before they break down or you become bored, or the new whiz bang model tempts you.
I really hope China disrupts the Leica digital camera soon. They deserve it.
speedgraphic wrote:
I just looked at the B&H listings for this camera. Good lord, is the M11-P really $9k?! And is that a pre-tariff price?
Don't pay this much for 35mm digital cameras, people. Digital cameras are basically extended disposable cameras. You get a few short years out of them before they break down or you become bored, or the new whiz bang model tempts you.
I really hope China disrupts the Leica digital camera soon. They deserve it.
Don't buy a Rolex a $2.00 watch can also tell time.
Don't buy Porsche you can get where you want to go in a $4,000 Chinese car.
Don't eat in fine restaurants, the street vendors can fill your stomach.
In fact, don't buy the best of anything. Always go the cheapest route.
These are lines coming from someone with no understanding. When well lived, life is about the experience. Photography is the same. It is not just about the picture.
speedgraphic wrote:
I just looked at the B&H listings for this camera. Good lord, is the M11-P really $9k?! And is that a pre-tariff price?
Don't pay this much for 35mm digital cameras, people. Digital cameras are basically extended disposable cameras. You get a few short years out of them before they break down or you become bored, or the new whiz bang model tempts you.
I really hope China disrupts the Leica digital camera soon. They deserve it.
That's why many buy Leica only used and never brand new. It will still cost you in a few years $4-5K but it will more bearable. Even a M 240 series camera from 2014 still will cost you $2.5K. It depends on own preference how much willing to spend professionally or for the hobby. My threshold limit for any new or used camera is about $3K - simply a level I personally feel comfortable with as max. amount.
If a std Leica $9K camera is surprising you, don't even look at black paint camera versions. Less durable with the coated paint but people pay much more for it due to its black paint glow and more unique "look". Used prices for black paint models remain always high, too.
JeffMD wrote:
Respectfully, I don’t see anything wrong with spending on a Leica and I certainly don’t want a Chinese built rangefinder.
I gotta say - the Chinese M lenses from 7Artisans, TTArtisan, and Light Lens Lab (to name only a few) have now reached a very good quality. I personally own the TTArtisan 11/2.8 fisheye M-lens, and it is a gem optically and in built quality.
Chinese rangefinder camera with M-mount? I wouldn't be opposed to it. Depends on the whole package, but I wouldn't just assume a bad quality from it. Times with bad optical products from China are long gone. I have two diopter correction lenses on two of my M cameras indifferent from the original Leica one I also own. Exactly the same quality for a lower price. They are mass-produced, made by robotics etc. I honestly don't care if the product is good and delivers. Cosina Voigtlander in Japan is another good example here, too.
1bwana1 wrote:
Don't buy a Rolex a $2.00 watch can also tell time.
Don't buy Porsche you can get where you want to go in a $4,000 Chinese car.
Don't eat in fine restaurants, the street vendors can fill your stomach.
In fact, don't buy the best of anything. Always go the cheapest route.
These are lines coming from someone with no understanding. When well lived, life is about the experience. Photography is the same. It is not just about the picture.
Agreed. I feel this 'appreciation' of life's experiences also comes with age, though I have no idea how old speedgraphic is.
I also feel we're inundated to too much cheap junk as it is. Disposable and often unrepairable. With expensive, high quality possessions, we tend to value them more, care for them, repair them. We may have fewer of them, which honestly, might not be such a bad thing (except for an economy driven by growth in consumption).
Maybe that's part of Leica's Das Wesentliche philosophy: pay more for less; value it and the experience it provides.
Now Leica just needs to get their service/repair experience to match other aspects of the brand experience.
1bwana1 wrote:
Don't buy a Rolex a $2.00 watch can also tell time.
Don't buy Porsche you can get where you want to go in a $4,000 Chinese car.
Don't eat in fine restaurants, the street vendors can fill your stomach.
In fact, don't buy the best of anything. Always go the cheapest route.
These are lines coming from someone with no understanding. When well lived, life is about the experience. Photography is the same. It is not just about the picture.
Could not agree more.
Mind you, I was once offered a very nice Rolex for $100 (if I recall correctly). The gentleman at the market stall in Seoul where it was for sale assured me that it had a genuine Seiko mechanism. Unfortunately, I was too skint at the time (this was 35 years ago) to take advantage of this excellent offer.
bcaslis wrote:
Whether it's discontinued or not, I love my M11. If not for the M11 I would never have starting taking pictures with a Leica M. I never found the brass top and bottom plate acceptable enough to give it a try on previous M cameras. But the lighter weight, easy access for battery, and 60MP sensor were enough to make me try the M11. Honestly I think the M11 gets a bad rap online. I've found it a great camera, best haptics of any camera I've tried, and when you nail focus and exposure the images are fantastic.
I agree that the M11 is the only M I’d consider, but at the same time, on my stay in Valencia I took about 6,000 images with my Canon and Olympus cameras and only 40 with my Leica and a few more with my Nikon Z6III with M lenses. Granted, it was mostly event shooting, but it makes me seriously wonder what I’ll take on my next trip.
johnvanr wrote:
I agree that the M11 is the only M I’d consider, but at the same time, on my stay in Valencia I took about 6,000 images with my Canon and Olympus cameras and only 40 with my Leica and a few more with my Nikon Z6III with M lenses. Granted, it was mostly event shooting, but it makes me seriously wonder what I’ll take on my next trip.
Nothing wrong with this - all a matter of personal preference. I am also using cameras from different brands, and I never felt aligned with any brand. It is all pure business for me what camera manufacturers do - they produce tools which we either like or like less. In the past 10- years I have mostly used Leica M as my main gear due to camera and lens size and portability - never bought into the "Wesentliche" camera slogan as pointed out earlier - I take as many good photos with my Sony A7R camera which has x times the amount of functions - I really couldn't care less.
retrofocus wrote:
I gotta say - the Chinese M lenses from 7Artisans, TTArtisan, and Light Lens Lab (to name only a few) have now reached a very good quality. I personally own the TTArtisan 11/2.8 fisheye M-lens, and it is a gem optically and in built quality.
Chinese rangefinder camera with M-mount? I wouldn't be opposed to it. Depends on the whole package, but I wouldn't just assume a bad quality from it. Times with bad optical products from China are long gone. I have two diopter correction lenses on two of my M cameras indifferent from the original Leica one I also own. Exactly the same quality for a lower price. They are mass-produced, made by robotics etc. I honestly don't care if the product is good and delivers. Cosina Voigtlander in Japan is another good example here, too. ...Show more →
I’ve used a few that were really bad and a couple of decent ones. I buy the TTArtisan fisheye lenses because they are as good and I don’t shed a tear when they ultimately get damaged.
Don’t get me wrong, there is a place in the market for cheap lenses. But for my core gear that I use, I’m not interested.
JeffMD wrote:
I’ve used a few that were really bad and a couple of decent ones. I buy the TTArtisan fisheye lenses because they are as good and I don’t shed a tear when they ultimately get damaged.
Don’t get me wrong, there is a place in the market for cheap lenses. But for my core gear that I use, I’m not interested.
Sometimes it is like the blindfolded testing of consumer products where one is highly priced and another one is much cheaper. When the blindfolded tester can't see the product, chances are equally distributed 50/50 which product of the two is preferred. Same here - there is bias with cheaper Chinese lenses disrupting the market. But I really can't see any debit in my photos of using them compared to my much more expensive Leica M lenses. The Chinese lenses are not for collectors for sure.
Leica is not the ‘best’ at anything. They are however the only real option (pixi max I guess) in the digital RF space. But also as many commenters have pointed out, the camera has numerous bugs, and Leica’s service and support is downright abysmal. Their lenses are barely better than a common Voigtlander at this point. The fact that they don’t have to compete with anyone has made them lazy and fat and they get to ignore the need to innovate or improve.
If you want to shoot top notch digital IQ you can get a freaking medium format Hasselblad for less money at least 2nd hand. Even Nikon is giving Leica a run for their money in the film look alike category.
The fact is, at least when it comes to RFs, the Leica is a one of one. I accept that. But it doesn’t excuse their flaws and it doesn’t justify their prices. The Rolex comparison is apt. If you care about rarified watches you can self justify having one, but in order to be the kind of person who cares about fancy watches your brain has to contort itself quite a bit to avoid the part of your mind that knows that there is no way that little shiny circle on your arm can be worth as much as a car.
And hey, I’m not immune to Leica’s charms. Their cameras are sexy as hell. I could probably justify spending around $3k on a used M10 if I didn’t care more about film. But being significantly more expensive than medium format digital and even pro cameras from Canon or Nikon? Uh no. I remember thinking these cameras were over priced when they were $6k. Wait till the tariffs kick in…yeesh!
Lucky for me the M4-P is the last Leica I’ll ever need. I think it has a roll of TMax in it which makes it “MONOCHROM”…except unlike the real “MONOCHROM” I can make silver gelatin prints from it.
And to defend China a bit…I’d say the finest large format cameras in the world come from there. Chamonix view cameras are top notch. Alec Soth uses one. If you know anything about manufacturing in the USA, all the stories I hear is that xyz company wanted to make something in the States but ended up turning to China not because it was only cheaper (which it was), but also the quality was significantly better. That’s ok, the USA is post industrial. But in general it’s a mistake to think of China and low quality in the same sentence. They put the world to shame at this point. Their market disruptions give companies reasons to do better, that’s how competition works and that’s what Leica badly needs.
