p.2 #3 · One way to unlock the fps, TC restriction of Sigma 300-600mm FE
j4nu wrote:
Ah, yes - Sony's approval ...
Certainly possible. But also possible Sony's cameras uniquely rely on an operational characteristic or timing that only their lenses are designed to deliver. If such a designed-in requirement exist it could be entirely technical in nature, or could be part technical, part marketing/protectionist for their own business unit profits.
p.2 #4 · One way to unlock the fps, TC restriction of Sigma 300-600mm FE
tester_V wrote:
No offence but do you think the Earth is flat? Just wondering...
I don't Just a lowly retired embedded firmware engineer who worked 30+ years on industry-standard interconnects like these, with lots of experience dealing with technical-based incompatibilities between vendors, esp for poorly-defined grey areas of the specifications.
p.2 #5 · One way to unlock the fps, TC restriction of Sigma 300-600mm FE
snapsy wrote:
Certainly possible. But also possible Sony's cameras uniquely rely on an operational characteristic or timing that only their lenses are designed to deliver. If such a designed-in requirement exist it could be entirely technical in nature, or could be part technical, part marketing/protectionist for their own business unit profits.
Agreed, it could be as simple as setting some extra flag/value when the lens negotiates with the body, but we will never know for sure unless we get our hands and eyes on full e-mount license or some inside knowledge.
My experience leans towards Occam's razor more often than not, and there's just too much evidence (3rd party lenses hit a hard stop at 15 fps in AF-C, but breach that limit on non-Sony bodies, even though some achieve 120fps on Sony bodies in AF-S) for me in this case.
I can't prove it though and everyone is of course free to believe what he likes .
p.2 #6 · One way to unlock the fps, TC restriction of Sigma 300-600mm FE
If Sony wanted 3rd party lenses to work at full speed, they would provide the full mount spec to the vendors for full compatibility. It's clear they do not since no 3rd party lenses work at full speed. This is a calculated business decision. It's not cobwebs in the attic or some great mystery.
p.2 #7 · One way to unlock the fps, TC restriction of Sigma 300-600mm FE
QuietOC wrote:
The functional incompatibility with Sigma E-mount lenses on Sony FE teleconverters is during the process where the modified lens information should be sent to the camera body. Obviously avoiding that process avoids it. You get nothing as nothing was asked.
Rebooting Sony cameras with a Sony teleconverter + Sigma lens mounted acts somewhat similar. The Sigma lens firmware should be responding initially with the corrected information for use with the teleconverter, but it doesn't. It only sends the bare lens information. The bare lens info is retained and the Sony camera happily uses that after the reboot. The camera doesn't attempt to repoll the lens and get stuck waiting for the teleconverter added info.
Nothing in the Sony camera needs to change to get this process working correctly. The missing stuff just needs to get added into the Sigma lens and it needs to know when and how to give it....Show more →
a year ago, the restriction still intact, i tried. Something change with Nikon firmware on their body recently or from Megadap. The old Sigma 500 f/5.6 doesnt' come with new firmware so your theory about sigma change is not happening. Sigma and Sony still have the agreement about 15 fps and no TC.
p.2 #8 · One way to unlock the fps, TC restriction of Sigma 300-600mm FE
That's because Sigma is using Sony's official (but dated) protocols, those protocols date from 2013 or so, and they only support 15fps.
The adapter meanwhile, is not using Nikon's official protocols but the company reverse engineered them, meaning they can be up-to-date without any kind of restriction.
If you do some research on the reverse engineered Sony protocols, you will see that specific signals must be sent to activate higher fps modes. But 20fps was only available in 2017, and 30fps was only available in 2020, meaning that the 2013 protocols didn't contain any information about those modes.
p.2 #9 · One way to unlock the fps, TC restriction of Sigma 300-600mm FE
Sony introduced Fast Hybrid AF in 2012 with the NEX 5R. They then updated the firmware in all of their E-mount lenses except the 16mm F2.8 to support it. The next camera to induce lens firmware updates was the A9 in 2017, but only three lenses were updated. The 70-300G OSS introduced the previous year never got 20 FPS capability, but a few FE lenses released before it did get it. The FE 50mm F1.8 released alongside the 70-300G OSS supports 20 FPS.
p.2 #10 · One way to unlock the fps, TC restriction of Sigma 300-600mm FE
octo wrote:
That's because Sigma is using Sony's official (but dated) protocols, those protocols date from 2013 or so, and they only support 15fps.
The adapter meanwhile, is not using Nikon's official protocols but the company reverse engineered them, meaning they can be up-to-date without any kind of restriction.
If you do some research on the reverse engineered Sony protocols, you will see that specific signals must be sent to activate higher fps modes. But 20fps was only available in 2017, and 30fps was only available in 2020, meaning that the 2013 protocols didn't contain any information about those modes.
That's a sound explanation, but it raises more questions as well:
* why was the licensed spec not updated through all this time?
* why did no 3rd party lens maker reverse-engineer the updates to the protocol, even the exotic chinese ones?
To me, something doesn't add up if we take technical reason only...
p.2 #12 · One way to unlock the fps, TC restriction of Sigma 300-600mm FE
j4nu wrote:
That's a sound explanation, but it raises more questions as well:
* why was the licensed spec not updated through all this time?
* why did no 3rd party lens maker reverse-engineer the updates to the protocol, even the exotic chinese ones?
To me, something doesn't add up if we take technical reason only...
In the context of what we are discussing, these two statements mean the same thing:
1/ The licensed spec was not updated.
2/ Sony intentionally prevents more than 15 fps.
"why did no 3rd party lens maker... "
Consider Canon RF. They did. They received threats from Canon, ie, cease and desist. They ceased.
Sigma would rather sell some lenses for E-Mount than none.
So they don't poke the bear.
They, sensibly, carefully chose how they explain their no poke policy.
Remember, Sigma 500 5.6 and 300-600 are not the only E-Mount lenses they sell.
fps restrictions have little or no impact on most of their E-mount.
Regarding TC restriction, this also has little to no impact on many Sigma E-Mount lenses.
I'm sure there's someone who'd want more than 15 fps on their 28-45 1.8, but they'd probably buy it anyway.
There's probably nobody who wishes they could use a TC with it.
p.2 #13 · One way to unlock the fps, TC restriction of Sigma 300-600mm FE
If the lens firmware controls the FPS and TC capability, I wonder if someone could reverse engineer the lens firmware and give us a custom firmware that removes the limitations. Kind of like how Magic Lantern used to unlock Canon camera capabilities.
p.2 #14 · One way to unlock the fps, TC restriction of Sigma 300-600mm FE
DWOfPaul wrote:
If the lens firmware controls the FPS and TC capability, I wonder if someone could reverse engineer the lens firmware and give us a custom firmware that removes the limitations.
The FPS limits probably require hardware. Sony would have updated more than just the 2.8/70-200GM, 1.4/50ZA, and 1.4/85GM to 20FPS after the A9 came out. The last two are limited to 20FPS. The 2.8/70-200GM is the only lens limited to 30FPS on the A9III. Those are the only Sony lenses to get firmware updates for FPS.
Hacked TC support without Sigma help at best might be at the level of TTArtisan/Viltrox lens firmware--incomplete and inaccurate. Maybe someone could decode the Sigma L-mount firmware data and convert it into Sony E-mount lens firmware data.
p.2 #15 · One way to unlock the fps, TC restriction of Sigma 300-600mm FE
DWOfPaul wrote:
If the lens firmware controls the FPS and TC capability, I wonder if someone could reverse engineer the lens firmware and give us a custom firmware that removes the limitations. Kind of like how Magic Lantern used to unlock Canon camera capabilities.
Sony Camera's firmware requires a secret key, but who knows maybe lens firmware is not protected this way .
Latest 3rd party lenses are capable of reaching 120fps in AF-S, so it's really a shame for it to go to waste...
...
Just a lowly retired embedded firmware engineer who worked 30+ years on industry-standard interconnects like these, with lots of experience dealing with technical-based incompatibilities between vendors, esp for poorly-defined grey areas of the specifications.