p.1 #3 · Z6 III vs Zf N-Log Video Noise Comparison
Many thanks again for all your work on the Z6 III (I've just become an owner!), snapsy, clearly this camera is in need of a firmware update to address both the shadow flickering and green/blue color-cast shifts as your video clearly demonstrates.
Have you done any investigations as to which color channels (R, G or B?) are actually shifting to precipitate this hue shift?
p.1 #4 · Z6 III vs Zf N-Log Video Noise Comparison
As expected. The Zf is a great overall camera providing great low light in stills and video, AF speed but for videographers when you need the absolute top of the line features (RAW, Line-In, etc) the Z6 III is still the go-to choice. I'm just wondering when Nikon will do anything about the flickering. It's been a bit since release and still no official recognition from Nikon. Hoping for some sort of fix
p.1 #6 · Z6 III vs Zf N-Log Video Noise Comparison
jimmy462 wrote:
Many thanks again for all your work on the Z6 III (I've just become an owner!), snapsy, clearly this camera is in need of a firmware update to address both the shadow flickering and green/blue color-cast shifts as your video clearly demonstrates.
Have you done any investigations as to which color channels (R, G or B?) are actually shifting to precipitate this hue shift?
Best, JG
If memory serves it was all channels but I found this analysis I did which at least showed iit in R and B:
p.1 #7 · Z6 III vs Zf N-Log Video Noise Comparison
jimmy462 wrote:
clearly this camera is in need of a firmware update to address both the shadow flickering and green/blue color-cast shifts as your video clearly demonstrates.
These noise issues look like sensor limitations. The D800 and D810 had similar issues at high ISO which were never solved.
One should plan to work around them. I.e. shoot at 800 or above 6400. Just consider ISO 3300 to 6300 a bermuda triangle for filmmaking.
The Z6 III does not look like the best tool for very low light video work. One would be surprised at how little of one's filmmaking is truly low light work. When the light goes that low and ISO spikes, on all cameras colours disappear, dynamic range disappears.
Z6 III still looks like a fabulous camera. Videos like this make me appreciate my Z9 all the more (full frame 120fps is another one). I had been looking at the Z6 III as I prefer a smaller camera. For a full size pro camera, the Z9 remains very compact and fits in the hand perfectly. Doubling down on my Z9, will keep my original Z6 as a smaller option (great for working with vintage lenses).
p.1 #8 · Z6 III vs Zf N-Log Video Noise Comparison
uncoy wrote:
These noise issues look like sensor limitations. The D800 and D810 had similar issues at high ISO which were never solved.
One should plan to work around them. I.e. shoot at 800 or above 6400. Just consider ISO 3300 to 6300 a bermuda triangle for filmmaking.
The Z6 III does not look like the best tool for very low light video work. One would be surprised at how little of one's filmmaking is truly low light work. When the light goes that low and ISO spikes, on all cameras colours disappear, dynamic range disappears.
Z6 III still looks like a fabulous camera. Videos like this make me appreciate my Z9 all the more (full frame 120fps is another one). I had been looking at the Z6 III as I prefer a smaller camera. For a full size pro camera, the Z9 remains very compact and fits in the hand perfectly. Doubling down on my Z9, will keep my original Z6 as a smaller option (great for working with vintage lenses)....Show more →
Regarding the "noise issues", I remain optimistic that both the color cast shifting and flickering will see some remediation in a future firmware...at the end of the day we're talking about digital numbers with both of these issues.
Regarding low-light "video work", everyone's level of what's acceptable and workable is, obviously, different...early days for me pitting Z6 III high-ISO output vs my Lumix S1's. I'm no filmmaker, just some goofball hack trying to get (what I consider) reasonable quality pictures/video of nature/wildlife in whatever lighting situations the day presents to me! Internal RAW video is the ticket for me here, Panasonic appears to have fallen asleep under a tree somewhere with their S1 lineup and I look forward to ditching all my Atomos gear!
A Z9 II/Z8 II/Z7 III with that fabulous Z6 III EVF, methinks Nikon has tipped-its-hat here as to what's to come!
p.1 #9 · Z6 III vs Zf N-Log Video Noise Comparison
jimmy462 wrote:
Regarding the "noise issues", I remain optimistic that both the color cast shifting and flickering will see some remediation in a future firmware...at the end of the day we're talking about digital numbers with both of these issues.
Regarding low-light "video work", everyone's level of what's acceptable and workable is, obviously, different...early days for me pitting Z6 III high-ISO output vs my Lumix S1's. I'm no filmmaker, just some goofball hack trying to get (what I consider) reasonable quality pictures/video of nature/wildlife in whatever lighting situations the day presents to me! Internal RAW video is the ticket for me here, Panasonic appears to have fallen asleep under a tree somewhere with their S1 lineup and I look forward to ditching all my Atomos gear!
A Z9 II/Z8 II/Z7 III with that fabulous Z6 III EVF, methinks Nikon has tipped-its-hat here as to what's to come! ...Show more →
I'm a bit less optimistic that Nikon will be able to mitigate the Z6 III noise issues. The black level/flickering are the result of random noise variation across the channels, which to resolve would require applying NR to clamp the variation differences, with its own attendant side effects. Regarding your S1, it shares the same basic Sony sensor in the Z6/Z6II/Zf/S5/S5II, so I would expect it to perform similarly to the Zf demonstrated in the video.
p.1 #10 · Z6 III vs Zf N-Log Video Noise Comparison
snapsy wrote:
I'm a bit less optimistic that Nikon will be able to mitigate the Z6 III noise issues. The black level/flickering are the result of random noise variation across the channels, which to resolve would require applying NR to clamp the variation differences, with its own attendant side effects. Regarding your S1, it shares the same basic Sony sensor in the Z6/Z6II/Zf/S5/S5II, so I would expect it to perform similarly to the Zf demonstrated in the video.
Where noise is both inherent and inescapable in all CMOS imaging systems, it comes down each manufacturer to design not only their circuitry but the accompanying firmware/software.
It would not surprise me to discover that "lesser quality" (grade) components, "lesser" (insufficient) power supplies, "lesser" RF protection (ad nauseam) will find their way into more consumer-/budget-friendly products such as the Z6 III vs. oh say, a flagship. It would also not surprise me to learn that in making their manufacturing decisions for Z6 III it may well have not been considered that, um, "curious customers" will shoot in such low-light conditions and with the accompanying exposure parameters where the/such shadow fluctuations become apparent...or, maybe, it was considered but fell outside the ROI envelope of what Nikon would consider for an under-$2.5k camera. Either way, we all have our own flashpoints as to when our hair-sets-itself-on-fire and a product's performance (or lack thereof) becomes unacceptable.
For me, (FWIW) Panasonic's inability to update their S1-series product line for internal RAW video recording after (now) 6-years shows (to me) a lack of commitment in their product lines (and, IMHO, addressing their customer's wants/needs/desires), and this has been (since Z9) my "unacceptable" threshold with Lumix. I stomached through 5D Mark II/7D noise above ISO 1600, 𝛼6300.7SII, 7R preposterous (IMHO, again) jellyrolling shutter, and S1/GH6 Atomos mega-dongle recording...looks like high-ISO shadow fluctuations might be my bane with Nikon!
Having said all that, I am, in no way, belittling or minimizing the work and excellent reporting you've been bringing to the community, I am always grateful to anyone bringing/sharing their experience and knowledge to the fore! Your reporting on shadow noise pre-informs me not to be surprised when I find it for myself! Kudos and sincerest thanks, as always!
Anyhoo, I remain confident that the kind engineers at Nikon/RED will (hopefully) provide some back-end software/firmware relief for this issue.
p.1 #11 · Z6 III vs Zf N-Log Video Noise Comparison
jimmy462 wrote:
Where noise is both inherent and inescapable in all CMOS imaging systems, it comes down each manufacturer to design not only their circuitry but the accompanying firmware/software.
It would not surprise me to discover that "lesser quality" (grade) components, "lesser" (insufficient) power supplies, "lesser" RF protection (ad nauseam) will find their way into more consumer-/budget-friendly products such as the Z6 III vs. oh say, a flagship. It would also not surprise me to learn that in making their manufacturing decisions for Z6 III it may well have not been considered that, um, "curious customers" will shoot in such low-light conditions and with the accompanying exposure parameters where the/such shadow fluctuations become apparent...or, maybe, it was considered but fell outside the ROI envelope of what Nikon would consider for an under-$2.5k camera. Either way, we all have our own flashpoints as to when our hair-sets-itself-on-fire and a product's performance (or lack thereof) becomes unacceptable.
For me, (FWIW) Panasonic's inability to update their S1-series product line for internal RAW video recording after (now) 6-years shows (to me) a lack of commitment in their product lines (and, IMHO, addressing their customer's wants/needs/desires), and this has been (since Z9) my "unacceptable" threshold with Lumix. I stomached through 5D Mark II/7D noise above ISO 1600, 𝛼6300.7SII, 7R preposterous (IMHO, again) jellyrolling shutter, and S1/GH6 Atomos mega-dongle recording...looks like high-ISO shadow fluctuations might be my bane with Nikon!
Having said all that, I am, in no way, belittling or minimizing the work and excellent reporting you've been bringing to the community, I am always grateful to anyone bringing/sharing their experience and knowledge to the fore! Your reporting on shadow noise pre-informs me not to be surprised when I find it for myself! Kudos and sincerest thanks, as always!
Anyhoo, I remain confident that the kind engineers at Nikon/RED will (hopefully) provide some back-end software/firmware relief for this issue.
I tend to agree that ankle-biter issues like the Z6 III's flickering are perhaps considered acceptable by Nikon on a sliding scale based on the target segment and price of the camera. In this case the fact that down-market cameras like the Zf and earlier Z6 bodies don't suffer from the problem might argue counter to that, provided one excludes the other benefits the Z6 III brings from its faster sensor.
As for whether the Z6 III's 1EV lower DR represents an ankle-biter issue only relevant to "curious customers" is of course a matter of opinion and situation.
Panasonic's failure to bring internal raw is likely more a legal issue than a technology or marketing one. Red Camera was extremely aggressive and successful at preventing camera makers from implementing any form of internal compressed raw video, including seemingly patent portfolio-proof behemoths like Sony and Apple. Nikon was also sued but settled early, which we later found out was due to Nikon entering into acquisition discussions with Red that they later consummated. It's unclear whether Nikon will continue Red's practice of aggressive enforcing their patents against competitors.
p.1 #12 · Z6 III vs Zf N-Log Video Noise Comparison
jimmy462 wrote:
Anyhoo, I remain confident that the kind engineers at Nikon/RED will (hopefully) provide some back-end software/firmware relief for this issue.
Someone on DPR just posted the following reply they received from Nikon Finland about the flickering issue:
Thank you for your patience while your support request has been under investigation, and I sincerely apologize for the delayed response. We have received confirmation that we plan to make improvements regarding this issue in an upcoming firmware update. Thank you once again for your patience. If you have any further questions, please don’t hesitate to reach out—I’m happy to help.
JG
Internal RAW video is the ticket for me here, Panasonic appears to have fallen asleep under a tree somewhere with their S1 lineup and I look forward to ditching all my Atomos gear!