p.3 #1 · Do you prefer softer lenses on Digital M bodies?
Older lenses come alive with the newer digital cameras, especially when using the Visoflex.
I like using the Summitar with the Monochrom, and regularly use the Canon f/0.95 with the same camera. Being able to see the aberrations in the visoflex and use them to your advantage is brilliant.
I'm not the biggest fan of my older lenses when shooting colour, but I absolutely love them for black and white.
Softness, flare, low contrast, all of these things (in my eyes) enhance a black and white portrait. I use the older 50mm lenses far more than my APO. If I'm photographing buildings etc I'll often pull out the APO but it just doesn't render the same as the old lenses, and the effects are difficult or impossible to replicate in post.
p.3 #2 · Do you prefer softer lenses on Digital M bodies?
stevejack2 wrote:
Older lenses come alive with the newer digital cameras, especially when using the Visoflex.
I like using the Summitar with the Monochrom, and regularly use the Canon f/0.95 with the same camera. Being able to see the aberrations in the visoflex and use them to your advantage is brilliant.
I'm not the biggest fan of my older lenses when shooting colour, but I absolutely love them for black and white.
Softness, flare, low contrast, all of these things (in my eyes) enhance a black and white portrait. I use the older 50mm lenses far more than my APO. If I'm photographing buildings etc I'll often pull out the APO but it just doesn't render the same as the old lenses, and the effects are difficult or impossible to replicate in post. ...Show more →
Visoflex—yes that's a great point and should really open up the possibilities.
p.3 #3 · Do you prefer softer lenses on Digital M bodies?
I am slowly—no—rapidly falling in love with the look of the new Summilux 35mm steel rim reissue. If I relegated that to my lowest-light needs, then my 28mm pursuits would be more likely to be in stronger light (street and travel, say), for which a Color Skopar or used Elmarit would be appropriate.
***EDIT***
Although, blast it, the 1m MFD is not what I wanted to hear. I find 0.7m challenging enough.
p.3 #4 · Do you prefer softer lenses on Digital M bodies?
You can get away with so much more in B/W because the form is already an abstraction, at far distance from reality. Personal sense is that the deep richness of film era lens color is a major factor driving the modern vintage movement, itself a reaction to the video game aesthetic of many modern movies. It's a swing back to naturalism, among other things.
'my 28mm pursuits' - mark my words, people will rapidly fall in love with the fast 28mm look, now it is within reach of more photographers in usable lens dimensions and at reasonable costs. It does place a large demand on focus fade quality. But when it is done well, it is highly addictive.
p.3 #5 · Do you prefer softer lenses on Digital M bodies?
philip_pj wrote:
'my 28mm pursuits' - mark my words, people will rapidly fall in love with the fast 28mm look, now it is within reach of more photographers in usable lens dimensions and at reasonable costs. It does place a large demand on focus fade quality. But when it is done well, it is highly addictive.
I don't know quote what you mean by "focus fade quality".
28 is the "right" focal length for 75% of what I like to do. I'm having bad luck with a CV 28 f/1.5 and will return it for another copy. I'm hoping I like the 2nd one better, otherwise it's back to the drawing board.
p.3 #6 · Do you prefer softer lenses on Digital M bodies?
Just got the Voigt 50/1.5 Nokton II ... only ONE asph element.
No other special glass (iiuc). SA is alive and well, just tempered a smidge. Seems to be a "tweener" between my 35 ASPH and my 40 Cron-C (but I haven't gone "head to head" with 'em all yet).
Nothing but some junky indoor test shots under junk light, so far. BUT, it seems to have that "soft razor" vibe to it. And it seems to have a nice "focus fade quality" to it. That rate of transition that isn't flat / dull ... but, isn't "cutout" either. Seems to tolerate PP to "sharpen things up" a smidge.
Hoping to get out with it for some shots worth posting, in a few days. Only so many shots of my shoes and camera bags and door knobs that a guy can put up with. Although, it does make for an ability to get "dialed in" to where the sweet spot is (or so I think).
We'll see how it goes once I get it out in the wild.
p.3 #8 · Do you prefer softer lenses on Digital M bodies?
'In the M-mount world, what might you give as exemplars of "modern vintage" lens making?'
All of the better early and turn of the century M lenses, especially the Summiluxes that formed the basis of the (Super 35) Summilux-C cine lenses (referred on on p1) and the Thypoch Simeras.
The long lived brands have been hugely influential on each other so the branding often obscures things. Zeiss, Leitz and the Japanese made all manner of high end 'filmic' lenses, they were even recognized as such at the time. And part is that they just look so good on digital, just because of what they are.
'bad luck with a CV 28 f/1.5'
Consider the Simera 28mm f1.4. Many people like this one, it's well specified and has very sound fundamentals: CA, distortion, excellent gradual onset 3D (one of the best I've seen), a rich and warm aesthetic, remarkable bokeh, good skin tones. If anyone knows where they got this lens design, please PM me.
YT title (and look at the images 9:24 onwards - the Mandler Look):
'Watch before you buy: 28mm 1.5 Voigtlander Nokton vs. 28mm 1.4 Thypoch Simera'
p.3 #9 · Do you prefer softer lenses on Digital M bodies?
'Focus fade quality' is a significant element of shaping the image content to make it appealing to viewers. Some lenses lose sharpness rapidly just off the focal plane and do it not so smoothly. It's an artifact of very well-corrected lenses, actually, and has to be managed carefully in design.
Some lenses manage to do this both quickly and smoothly, others extend fade by design. 'Quality' is when they do it in a way that is pleasing and balanced enough to not interfere with the image. It's largely qualitative - a lot of the aesthetic here is having these things get out of the way of the meaning of the picture.
The cine people are deconstructing images so they can better understand them and how to get what they want from lenses. This video below of Iain Neil is very informative.
"Iain A. Neil has previously received 12 Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences SciTech Awards, 2 Television Academy Emmy Awards, and the SMPTE Fuji Gold Medal for his work in cinema optics and lens design. Neil designed the Panavision Primo series, the Leica Summilux-C series, and several Cooke spherical and anamorphic series of lenses."
I suggest the content between 22:15-27:10; and content between 38:40-46:55 (to avoid the still interesting banter). And bear in mind this guy is one of the finest lens designers alive. It's a paradigm shift that is gathering pace.
p.3 #10 · Do you prefer softer lenses on Digital M bodies?
philip_pj wrote:
'Focus fade quality' is a significant element of shaping the image content to make it appealing to viewers. Some lenses lose sharpness rapidly just off the focal plane and do it not so smoothly. It's an artifact of very well-corrected lenses, actually, and has to be managed carefully in design.
Some lenses manage to do this both quickly and smoothly, others extend fade by design. 'Quality' is when they do it in a way that is pleasing and balanced enough to not interfere with the image. It's largely qualitative - a lot of the aesthetic here is having these things get out of the way of the meaning of the picture.
The cine people are deconstructing images so they can better understand them and how to get what they want from lenses. This video below of Iain Neil is very informative.
"Iain A. Neil has previously received 12 Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences SciTech Awards, 2 Television Academy Emmy Awards, and the SMPTE Fuji Gold Medal for his work in cinema optics and lens design. Neil designed the Panavision Primo series, the Leica Summilux-C series, and several Cooke spherical and anamorphic series of lenses."
I suggest the content between 22:15-27:10; and content between 38:40-46:55 (to avoid the still interesting banter). And bear in mind this guy is one of the finest lens designers alive. It's a paradigm shift that is gathering pace.
This is kinda related to how (imo) Karbe has taken lens design into a more rapid falloff in some of his designs ... chasing that uber MTF and rapid falloff of an f/2 vs. a larger / faster f/1.4 to achieve "equivalent" separation. Imo, it isn't truly equivalent, as it renders a bit differently, but Karbe is landing things where he feels he wants them. The rate of transition is part of the price to be paid in some regard.
I'm not saying that is bad, or Karbe doesn't know what he's trying to achieve ... just pointing out that optics is always a series of compromises, and designers have much to contend with in the nuance of those paradoxic and diametrically opposed attributes.
For me, part of the draw to Leica to begin with was the way the lenses transitioned that falloff. Being an uber-detail junkie, I can appreciate the increased MTF in some designs. But, I've also come to observe that the very falloff transition that drew me to Leica ... well, it's not quite the same. Some will say "better", because of the levels of correction / MTF ... but, to my eye it kinda reminds me of moving away from that signature Leica transition ... and more toward Zeiss / SoCaNikon, et al. Not all the way toward the others, but maybe a 1/2 step or 1/4 step in that direction. Probably a bit pedantic, but that's just how some of the latest Karbe designs strike me.
p.3 #11 · Do you prefer softer lenses on Digital M bodies?
You get the impression that they see something that happens in their greatest lenses - the ones they slaved over for years - and they enjoy the look because of its connection to their efforts and the super quality of the imagery.
One of ARRI's guy just about admitted this about fast fall-off (ARRI for those who don't know is also a German firm, founded 1917). I saw this fall-off in the CV APOs, often felt the need for a stop or two extra depending on distance.
It's more of this self-important ideology: 'we made this lens, so now you can buy it'. Where the new industry approach is to listen to influencers and study carefully *what people want*, and try to translate what they say to meet their needs, with your own character traits and preferences thrown into the mix.
I'd prefer that many of them talk more from the image side like Neil does, rather than the camera/scientific dev side in future and 100mp sensors. Easy to see why Neil has been so successful, he is at the coal face and he listens intently. The others will get there. If I am right, industry trends will force it on them. These days, the perps are more IT nerds than the kind of dyed in the wool optical developers at CZ and Leica 30-40 years ago.
It's interesting that there is little demand or interest to use SL lenses for video/cine (putting aside the practicalities, FBW/no aperture rings), whereas the M optics are so acclaimed, sought after, and a total inspiration to the industry. To the point the 'Leica look' is so diffused it is hard to identify, same with Zeiss. The SL lens series is a kind of superb orphan - but a beautiful loser in terms of its influence, the epitome of modernity.
By comparison, cine/videographers are very partial to the Loxias, and just love the Otuses, and helped along by their very untrendy macro-like focus throws in portrait lenses - 220 degrees for the Loxia 85mm, 300 degrees for the Otus 100/1.4. I can never figure out why reviewers fail to mention this vital statistic.
p.3 #12 · Do you prefer softer lenses on Digital M bodies?
I have a rented 35mm Summilux Steel Rim modern edition on my camera and boy. Finding the right batch SR vintage is a rabbit hole I could see one day falling head first into.
I'm seeing room for both ends of the spectrum. The Steel Rim is such a character. But I have a desire for shooting wide open with less vignetting and a bit more of a reportage rendering. Oh what fun.
p.3 #13 · Do you prefer softer lenses on Digital M bodies?
I just received my summilux 35mm SR reissue today. We are going to get along just fine.
I have had older lenses that are soft and or have a glow to them. But this little guy offers it at f1.4 in a way that I have never experienced it before. F1.7 is tamed and by f2 I have the making a modern lens. This will be my main lens for the year.
p.3 #14 · Do you prefer softer lenses on Digital M bodies?
philip_pj wrote:
'Focus fade quality' is a significant element of shaping the image content to make it appealing to viewers. Some lenses lose sharpness rapidly just off the focal plane and do it not so smoothly. It's an artifact of very well-corrected lenses, actually, and has to be managed carefully in design.
Some lenses manage to do this both quickly and smoothly, others extend fade by design. 'Quality' is when they do it in a way that is pleasing and balanced enough to not interfere with the image. It's largely qualitative - a lot of the aesthetic here is having these things get out of the way of the meaning of the picture.
The cine people are deconstructing images so they can better understand them and how to get what they want from lenses. This video below of Iain Neil is very informative.
"Iain A. Neil has previously received 12 Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences SciTech Awards, 2 Television Academy Emmy Awards, and the SMPTE Fuji Gold Medal for his work in cinema optics and lens design. Neil designed the Panavision Primo series, the Leica Summilux-C series, and several Cooke spherical and anamorphic series of lenses."
I suggest the content between 22:15-27:10; and content between 38:40-46:55 (to avoid the still interesting banter). And bear in mind this guy is one of the finest lens designers alive. It's a paradigm shift that is gathering pace.
I watched A Complete Unknown last night and was instantly beguiled by the optics. I didn't see actual film grain, but I think the camera work and lens choice in the film is exactly the sort of thing you've been banging on about.
p.3 #15 · Do you prefer softer lenses on Digital M bodies?
ZdevilH1 wrote:
I just received my summilux 35mm SR reissue today. We are going to get along just fine.
I have had older lenses that are soft and or have a glow to them. But this little guy offers it at f1.4 in a way that I have never experienced it before. F1.7 is tamed and by f2 I have the making a modern lens. This will be my main lens for the year.
The size of it is just perfect. I'm only in B&W at this stage, but I'm really enjoying my rented copy. How is your aperture ring? I know people in the past have complained.
If I cannot afford one (more on that later)—assuming this is a direction I want to go in, I wonder about the CV Classic as a cheap alternative to the SR for the time being.
p.3 #16 · Do you prefer softer lenses on Digital M bodies?
Pindy wrote:
The size of it is just perfect. I'm only in B&W at this stage, but I'm really enjoying my rented copy. How is your aperture ring? I know people in the past have complained.
If I cannot afford one (more on that later)—assuming this is a direction I want to go in—I might not be able to pull the funds. I wonder about the CV Classic as a cheap alternative to the SR for the time being.
Completely agreed, the size of it is perfect on a M body. The lens aperture is tight and well built. There's a tiny tiny bit of play but it doesn't bother me. I believe that Leica fixed the issue when they first released their first batch of lenses. Mine was built in October 2024.
What I wanted was a small lens that would give me good character as well as a modern lens. Funny that you mentioned the CV 35mm f1.4 classic. I have it right here next to me. In fact I have two copies, the 40mm f1.4 MC ii which I adore and also the 35 mm f.4 MC ii. The 35 will probably sell now that the simmilux is here. While you can get the 35 CV to Glow, it is not the same effect on the entire image as the sumulux offers. It's not just how the subject glows, it's how the entire image comes alive. If you have any more questions on it just let me know.
PS. The simmilux just looks so damn sexy on a black body. 😄
Leica M11-D Leica Summilux 35mm f1.4 Steel Rim f/1.4
Although, it does make for an ability to get "dialed in" to where the sweet spot is (or so I think). 
