Nifty Fifty wrote:
But you can also see it as a clever tactic. Copy good things cheaply, constantly improve them, and thus beat the original. Look at what the Japanese camera industry did to the German camera industry. By the way, did you know how the "Made in Germany" seal of quality came about? Initially, "Made in Germany" was the exact opposite of a seal of quality. This designation of origin was mandated by the British Parliament in 1887 to identify "inferior" goods from German industrial production for English consumers. "Cheap and bad" was therefore the first connotation associated with "Made in Germany." Over the years, this evolved into a seal of quality that international consumers understood as an indication of high-quality products. So let's wait and see what the future holds. ...Show more →
+1
Nice post! Then also came the sub-denomination “made in West-Germany” to differentiate from the communist East German productions.
Remember that the main consideration here is labor costs etc from the producing country.
Made in Japan is kind of what made in Germany used to be
So both these are the most expensive locations to manufacture (if you don’t consider hasselblad)
Made in china or India is automatically radically cheaper because of the insanely low costs (relatively) compared to traditional manufacturing nations that we associate with high quality
For sure DZO is still running a profit by introducing their stills lenses at such competitive prices (1/10 of Leica WTF!?)
In regards to their aspherical elements, I find them superior to much other more expensive lenses available.
So if the Chinese or Indian or whatever manufacturer can achieve adequate production results; then it’s your ignorance if you don’t give them a chance.
I was all about made in Japan and made in Germany - as I truly appreciate quality
Now I’ve succumbed to “made in china” for my first quality purchases EVER - and I couldn’t be happier (my wallet also).
cbass wrote:
From a technical performance I would say the SL lenses put Leica lenses at the very top of any manufacturer. Regardless if you like their size or price.
Whether this should be considered an innovation given the current state of photographic optics is debatable. Ever-increasing sharpness, ever-higher contrast, ever-higher resolution, ever-higher clarity, while completely losing sight of the feeling for natural representation. No, for technical purposes this may offer advantages, but for pictorial photography it (in my opinion!) brings more disadvantages. Aside from the fact that the Apo Summicron is probably not even a Leica design, I personally don't like its rendering at all. I was looking forward to a Q with a normal focal length, but I can't make heads or tails of this rendering. For me, innovation would mean miniaturization including reduced weight, not ever-larger and heavier lenses that, without any sense of proportion, surpass already overly sharp lenses in this category. I find that unimaginative.
Nifty Fifty wrote:
Whether this should be considered an innovation given the current state of photographic optics is debatable. Ever-increasing sharpness, ever-higher contrast, ever-higher resolution, ever-higher clarity, while completely losing sight of the feeling for natural representation. No, for technical purposes this may offer advantages, but for pictorial photography it (in my opinion!) brings more disadvantages. Aside from the fact that the Apo Summicron is probably not even a Leica design, I personally don't like its rendering at all. I was looking forward to a Q with a normal focal length, but I can't make heads or tails of this rendering. For me, innovation would mean miniaturization including reduced weight, not ever-larger and heavier lenses that, without any sense of proportion, surpass already overly sharp lenses in this category. I find that unimaginative. ...Show more →
If you like the rendering or not is up to taste and that's fine. That is why Leica has different mounts and lines. The SL line is huge and bulky but of the highest technical caliber they can achieve. The M line is compact and rangefinder blockage is a concern so size matters. For compact size they need to keep the number of elements low and less aberrations can be corrected. Instead, they are managed based on how each aberration affects the final image and compromises are made. Older lenses including older Leica are still used, but those have already been produced so there is nothing to do there. The only issue is degrading due to age and thus why there have been reissues of older designs that don't suffer from age related issues.
Still the SL optical designs appear to be unique and aren't trying to emulate the look of an existing design.
Happydan wrote:
So if the Chinese or Indian or whatever manufacturer can achieve adequate production results; then it’s your ignorance if you don’t give them a chance.
I was all about made in Japan and made in Germany - as I truly appreciate quality
Now I’ve succumbed to “made in china” for my first quality purchases EVER - and I couldn’t be happier (my wallet also).
Good times.
I have no issue if a country is able to optimize production or lower costs due to innovation of process or manufacturing. Even less so if they are able to maintain high quality or improve upon the quality. The issue I have is how that cheaper labor comes from India and more specifically China. There is massive abuse of human dignity and rights. China has been caught more than once using forced prison labor to produce products. You can't compete with the labor of slaves. India shares some of the same issues and massive labor abuses exist. These are forms of modern slavery and I have an issue with that. And yes there is also massive subsidies from the government of many Chinese products. That's a whole different discussion in another direction.
cbass wrote:
You seem to be jumping to conclusions and making up an elaborate narrative. I gave you the opportunity to respond and said I am willing to listen if you want to bring up what they have innovated. You said you had no interest in a discussion. That's fair and your choice. It has no impact on me. Where did I make a statement on the mental capabilities? Again, you are jumping to massive conclusions. Why does it even have anything to do with mental capabilities? It's like school. You can have the mental capabilities to put in the work and study and do well or you can copy from someone else and it becomes the easy path so you stagnate. ...Show more →
Sorry if I misunderstood you initial point. To me, saying "They [the Chinese] do not excel at innovation or new design" sounds like you are making a statement about the capabilities of the Chinese people, rather than their economic system or company culture or whatever. Apparently I misunderstood. Sorry for that.
However, if your actual argument is "the Chinese" (again talking about the Chinese people), may have the mental capabilities to innovate, but are just too lazy and do not "want to put in the work", you are just making my point. And still have not provided any evidence for your initial statement, by the way.
In general, and maybe this is me being "woke", it is a bad idea to make blanket statements about "the [enter an ethnicity, nationality, or religion here]", as it can easily interpreted as being racist.
cbass wrote:
Sadly, I think you are mostly correct here. Leica has been riding old designs with minor improvements for quite some time or re-releasing old designs. They also have some of the most inefficient manufacturing processes. Then again, I think the Apo-Summicron 50 is an improvement (innovation) as well as the Q3 43 lens. The lenses in the SL line are massive in size, but many of those are world class when you look at the MTF charts and real world performance. Many of those SL lenses are second to none. From a technical performance I would say the SL lenses put Leica lenses at the very top of any manufacturer. Regardless if you like their size or price. ...Show more →
Regarding the new Leica lenses, almost everyone will agree that they are clinical = sterile
I saw the video posted (probably earlier in this thread) where the undoubtedly smart Leica Lens designer Mandeler
Mentioned several times that Leica plans for resolving DOUBLE the “required” line pairs, saying that their new SL APO lenses are easily able to resolve 100MPix+. That’s great if you are using a GFX and want to count the grains of sand on a beach.
Mr Lens designer even mentioned that considering all the lens elements included they are “surprisingly affordable” - I suppose there was no other way to resolve those high design parameters without adding so much glass to correct appochromatically. After all, they can’t use thorium, lead etc anymore!
(Interesting comment to this video above:
Just a funny comment. I know photographers who use the camera with with the most megapixels and the sharpest lenses for portraits the go into Photoshop to air brush everything.“)
Happydan wrote:
Regarding the new Leica lenses, almost everyone will agree that they are clinical = sterile
I saw the video posted (probably earlier in this thread) where the undoubtedly smart Leica Lens designer Mandeler
Mentioned several times that Leica plans for resolving DOUBLE the “required” line pairs, saying that their new SL APO lenses are easily able to resolve 100MPix+. That’s great if you are using a GFX and want to count the grains of sand on a beach.
Mr Lens designer even mentioned that considering all the lens elements included they are “surprisingly affordable” - I suppose there was no other way to resolve those high design parameters without adding so much glass to correct appochromatically. After all, they can’t use thorium, lead etc anymore!
(Interesting comment to this video above:
Just a funny comment. I know photographers who use the camera with with the most megapixels and the sharpest lenses for portraits the go into Photoshop to air brush everything.“)...Show more →
Who agrees new Leica lenses are sterile and clinical?
The New Leica lenses are still being copied by Thypoch- For example the new 50 Lux-
cbass wrote:
I have no issue if a country is able to optimize production or lower costs due to innovation of process or manufacturing. Even less so if they are able to maintain high quality or improve upon the quality. The issue I have is how that cheaper labor comes from India and more specifically China. There is massive abuse of human dignity and rights. China has been caught more than once using forced prison labor to produce products. You can't compete with the labor of slaves. India shares some of the same issues and massive labor abuses exist. These are forms of modern slavery and I have an issue with that. And yes there is also massive subsidies from the government of many Chinese products. That's a whole different discussion in another direction.
+1
Great point! This should be considered heavily!
That’s why I don’t support anything Chinese (apart from these thypoch simeras)
India on the other hand has my heart.
Perhaps open up a new thread for this discussion around trade wars and political & ethical production standards
Would be nice if this thread can focus on the topic of the 50 Simera
I mean the Q lenses and the SL APO Range, that’s what the previous member was referring to in regards to MTF performance
And I just replied; without being more explicit for you to follow.
I have come across too many people that say their Q3 (43) renders clinically. Have no experience with any SL lenses but gather as much from Mr mandlers loooooong presentation on that lens range
RustyRus wrote:
Who agrees new Leica lenses are sterile and clinical?
The New Leica lenses are still being copied by Thypoch- For example the new 50 Lux-
(Interesting comment to this video above:
Just a funny comment. I know photographers who use the camera with with the most megapixels and the sharpest lenses for portraits the go into Photoshop to air brush everything.“)
This video was recorded 5 years ago, before the advent of the new LEICA SL APO lenses
Here is one more video where Ken distinguishes between
Precision/reproduction lenses (such as CV65/110 APO and the LEICA SL range imo)
Perfect lenses and awesome lenses.
Yes, his repetitions are annoying but it helps to zoom out and see the bigger picture of the lens development industry!
Happydan wrote:
This video was recorded 5 years ago, before the advent of the new LEICA SL APO lenses
Here is one more video where Ken distinguishes between
Precision/reproduction lenses (such as CV65/110 APO and the LEICA SL range imo)
Perfect lenses and awesome lenses.
Yes, his repetitions are annoying but it helps to zoom out and see the bigger picture of the lens development industry!
I clicked the link...and wished that I hadn't...I find that person very difficult to watch...for a whole host of reasons...
At any rate, I briefly used the 50mm Simera. It is basically optically equal to the 50mm Lux Asph (as Fred's excellent review showed). The Thypoch even has a smoother focus throw. The Leica lens is smaller and has a better overall design (for rangefinder use), but that really doesn't make the price difference make sense. If you have either lens, you should be happy.
mranger211 wrote:
Sorry if I misunderstood you initial point. To me, saying "They [the Chinese] do not excel at innovation or new design" sounds like you are making a statement about the capabilities of the Chinese people, rather than their economic system or company culture or whatever. Apparently I misunderstood. Sorry for that.
However, if your actual argument is "the Chinese" (again talking about the Chinese people), may have the mental capabilities to innovate, but are just too lazy and do not "want to put in the work", you are just making my point. And still have not provided any evidence for your initial statement, by the way.
In general, and maybe this is me being "woke", it is a bad idea to make blanket statements about "the [enter an ethnicity, nationality, or religion here]", as it can easily interpreted as being racist....Show more →
I also apologize. I was not referring the the Chinese people or their intellgence, skill, or worth ethic. When I said Chinese I was more thinking of China as a country. They have particular policies and I think policy affects outcomes and sets a direction and business atmosphere. Government policies create a certain path they want you to follow and going against it becomes a difficult task. I would say the same about the Soviet Union and their optics. They were largely Zeiss formulas that were built to a cheaper standard and they also eventually introduced minor refinements.
I still believe my previous statement with the school analogy, but I think that applies to all people.
Also, someone else responded with a list of Chinese companies and I am not familiar with all, but I will concede that DJI is innovative and their drones are industry leading. So I can't make the claim that no innovation comes out of China.
As for getting on topic. I am not against the Thypoch simera. I find the lens attractive both in price and performance and I have come close to buying one a few times myself especially when they have run an aggressive sale. The only reason I don't own one right now is because I have an older Summilux and it is a lens that I adapt to a few Fuji bodies. The biggest advantage to the Summilux ASPH and this also applies to the Thypoch is the improved curvature and corner performance over the older version. Sadly, when you adapt to mirrorless that corner performance is not at the same level so in that situation I don't think you gain much over the older version. Furthermore, any lens with floating and aspherical elements requires a precise adapter to utilize the full performance. The only adapter I know that is that precise is the rayqual and those are not cheap. Then you still have the corner issues when adapting to mirrorless. The older one shares rendering characteristics with the ASPH one which was an evolution more than a redesign so for now I stay with the non-ASPH version.
However, I have to say I couldn't resist taking a jab at people that claim they aren't Leica fans but are now amazed at the performance and rendering as if Thypoch came up with a new lens when it's obvious their intent was to emulate summilux rendering and characteristic with some minor variation and they succeeded in that so there is a lot of overlap between them.
cbass wrote:
I also apologize. I was not referring the the Chinese people or their intellgence, skill, or worth ethic. When I said Chinese I was more thinking of China as a country. They have particular policies and I think policy affects outcomes and sets a direction and business atmosphere. Government policies create a certain path they want you to follow and going against it becomes a difficult task. I would say the same about the Soviet Union and their optics. They were largely Zeiss formulas that were built to a cheaper standard and they also eventually introduced minor refinements.
I still believe my previous statement with the school analogy, but I think that applies to all people.
Also, someone else responded with a list of Chinese companies and I am not familiar with all, but I will concede that DJI is innovative and their drones are industry leading. So I can't make the claim that no innovation comes out of China. ...Show more →
No worries. I misunderstood your argument, and reacted based on this misunderstanding. I suppose this is the nature of arguing on message boards.
You are certainly correct that the official Chinese economic policy for a long time was based on acquiring knowledge through copying and making export products cheaper mainly due to lower labor costs. This is a very good model for economic development, as it avoids re-inventing the wheel, while forcing your firms to be able to compete internationally. Like in your school example, it is a better idea to learn (by copying and then understanding) from your teacher (or classmate) than try to teach yourself math from first principle by yourself.
The problem starts when you have reached the limits of this process. In order to keep growing, a country will have to start innovating, otherwise it will stagnate, like in your school example. The Chinese government, from what I can tell, is very aggressive in that regard. However, this aggressiveness seems to be highly directed towards industries they deem future relevant. Things like green energy, battery technology, nano-materials, medical research, which might not necessarily end up in our stores directly. Making lenses for cameras is probably pretty low on their agenda, especially since (and I could be wrong) we have reached the end of meaningful technological growth in this field
Anyway, back to the Thypoch. I do like the tradeoff Thypoch has made when they modified the original Lecia design, and would probably pick it over the Summilux irrespective of price. But that is a very personal choice.
cbass wrote:
As for getting on topic. I am not against the Thypoch simera. I find the lens attractive both in price and performance and I have come close to buying one a few times myself especially when they have run an aggressive sale.
I felt the same way. But I have to say that I find the incessant and completely absurd praise from a certain forum member here so repulsive that I simply can't buy a Thypoch, as I would think of this influencer every time I used it, and that would spoil the whole experience. 😄
I honestly think this lens has very good price/performance. It does have its limitations (flare, lack of micro-contrast, bad focus breathing for video). I trust Fred's reviews and he had positive things to say about this lens.
But.... man a certain forum member and a self-proclaimed "expert" is honestly doing Thypoch a disservice and turning several people (myself included) away from these lenses. It prevents me from experiencing and discovering the merits and demerits of the lens for myself because I find his online demeanor so repulsive. I find his comments biased and absurd in a lot of cases. I wish Thypoch (assuming they are in his case) would work with people that can speak for the brand with some degree of interpersonal skills not to mention a certain level of skill in producing good photos that showcase the lens' abilities. The last thing any manufacturer wants is lost sales and a bad rep because of someone (they work with) who just comes across as obnoxious and incompetent. That is not a good combination and is exactly the problem here.
Nifty Fifty wrote:
I felt the same way. But I have to say that I find the incessant and completely absurd praise from a certain forum member here so repulsive that I simply can't buy a Thypoch, as I would think of this influencer every time I used it, and that would spoil the whole experience. 😄
Sorry if I misunderstood you initial point. To me, saying "They [the Chinese] do not excel at innovation or new design" sounds like you are making a statement about the capabilities of the Chinese people, rather than their economic system or company culture or whatever. Apparently I misunderstood. Sorry for that.
This is an interesting and well put apology. Criticism of cultural, social, government or industrial practices of a country is so often reduced to the insult of ‘racism’, hindering any meaningful debate. This is why so many despise the racism card as ‘woke’. Of course real racial prejudice is bad, and destructive, but so often criticisms are more about culturally specific issues, or, in the case of China, government, calculations. We, as a global community, really need to find a very clear way of making this distinction between racism and cultural/policy criticism.
