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Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

Steve Spencer
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p.18 #1 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

When we consider this Simera line of lenses as a whole, I am of two minds.

I respect Phillip and agree that Thypoch/DZO has a very interesting approach and lineage. That makes me optimistic about these lenses. Fred's extensive review, which demonstrates strong performance, IMO, for the 50 f/1.4, and Nehemiah's tests with the 50 T1.5 cine lens and especially his evidence that the cine lens was optimized for the Sony sensor gives me further confidence Thypoch/DZO have done a great job with that lens both for Leica M mount and Sony E mount.

That said, I also respect Nehemiah, and value his take on the Simera 35 f/1.4 and he had major reservations about that lens and pointed out some possible serious flaws. Maybe he just got a bad copy of the lens, but that lens design is clearly based on the Leica M 35 lux FLE and I know from having the Leica M 50 lux Asph and the 35 lux FLE that the two lenses don't render very similarly. We know from Fred's review that the Simera 50 f/1.4 renders a lot like the Leica M 50 lux Asph, so what does that mean for the Simera 35 f/1.4. To me either it renders like the similarly designed Leica M 35 lux FLE, in which case it doesn't render like the Simera 50 f/1.4 (a situation somewhat problematic for the cine lens line), or despite having a similar design to the Leica M 35 lux FLE, Thypoch/DZO tweaked the rendering of the lens to make it render more like the Simera 50 f/1.4/Leica M 50 lux Asph. If they did the latter, which I would kind of expect given the desire to have similar rendering in cine lenses, then perhaps Nehemiah's lens was not a bad copy and their efforts to produce a similar rendering to the 50 resulted in less than optimum performance. So, I am very interested in whether the 35 f/1.4 is in the same league as the 50 f/1.4. I have hope it might be, but I also have serious concerns it might not.

It seems to me a plausible sequence that Thypoch/DZO made the Simera 50 f/1.4 based on the design of the Leica M 50 lux Asph. It turned out spectacularly as we have seen. They then or at the same time made the Simera 35 f/1.4 based on the design of the Leica M 35 lux FLE and it turned out good enough for their goals but not as good as the 50. They then or at the same time made the Simera 28 f/1.4 and didn't make it based on an existing design (I can't find an existing 28 that has a similar design to the Simera 28--the Leica M 28 lux Asph is a fairly different design). How it fares in performance is still to be seen. To me it looks promising, but I still have some doubts based on Nehemiah's experience with the Simera 35 and some comments it is low contrast wide open. Finally, it appears that 75 f/1.4 may have been developed a bit later and we don't, AFAIK, have a diagram with its design to see if it is similar to an existing lens. Personally, I am very interested in the performance of this lens as it is both small and fast for the focal length and if it performs like the 50, it would be a great addition to my kit. Beyond that we know a 21mm is coming, but we know almost nothing about that lens.

So, I am optimistic about this line of lenses, but cautiously so and I worry that it may only be the 50 that I really want. I am very curious to see how the testing for the other lenses in this series turns out.

Nov 28, 2024 at 10:58 AM

Fred Miranda
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p.18 #2 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

Steve Spencer wrote:
When we consider this Simera line of lenses as a whole, I am of two minds.

I respect Phillip and agree that Thypoch/DZO has a very interesting approach and lineage. That makes me optimistic about these lenses. Fred's extensive review, which demonstrates strong performance, IMO, for the 50 f/1.4, and Nehemiah's tests with the 50 T1.5 cine lens and especially his evidence that the cine lens was optimized for the Sony sensor gives me further confidence Thypoch/DZO have done a great job with that lens both for Leica M mount and Sony E mount.

That said, I also respect Nehemiah, and value his take on the Simera 35 f/1.4 and he had major reservations about that lens and pointed out some possible serious flaws. Maybe he just got a bad copy of the lens, but that lens design is clearly based on the Leica M 35 lux FLE and I know from having the Leica M 50 lux Asph and the 35 lux FLE that the two lenses don't render very similarly. We know from Fred's review that the Simera 50 f/1.4 renders a lot like the Leica M 50 lux Asph, so what does that mean for the Simera 35 f/1.4. To me either it renders like the similarly designed Leica M 35 lux FLE, in which case it doesn't render like the Simera 50 f/1.4 (a situation somewhat problematic for the cine lens line), or despite having a similar design to the Leica M 35 lux FLE, Thypoch/DZO tweaked the rendering of the lens to make it render more like the Simera 50 f/1.4/Leica M 50 lux Asph. If they did the latter, which I would kind of expect given the desire to have similar rendering in cine lenses, then perhaps Nehemiah's lens was not a bad copy and their efforts to produce a similar rendering to the 50 resulted in less than optimum performance. So, I am very interested in whether the 35 f/1.4 is in the same league as the 50 f/1.4. I have hope it might be, but I also have serious concerns it might not.

It seems to me a plausible sequence that Thypoch/DZO made the Simera 50 f/1.4 based on the design of the Leica M 50 lux Asph. It turned out spectacularly as we have seen. They then or at the same time made the Simera 35 f/1.4 based on the design of the Leica M 35 lux FLE and it turned out good enough for their goals but not as good as the 50. They then or at the same time made the Simera 28 f/1.4 and didn't make it based on an existing design (I can't find an existing 28 that has a similar design to the Simera 28--the Leica M 28 lux Asph is a fairly different design). How it fares in performance is still to be seen. To me it looks promising, but I still have some doubts based on Nehemiah's experience with the Simera 35 and some comments it is low contrast wide open. Finally, it appears that 75 f/1.4 may have been developed a bit later and we don't, AFAIK, have a diagram with its design to see if it is similar to an existing lens. Personally, I am very interested in the performance of this lens as it is both small and fast for the focal length and if it performs like the 50, it would be a great addition to my kit. Beyond that we know a 21mm is coming, but we know almost nothing about that lens.

So, I am optimistic about this line of lenses, but cautiously so and I worry that it may only be the 50 that I really want. I am very curious to see how the testing for the other lenses in this series turns out....Show more →

Hi Steve,

Could it be that the Simera 35/1.4 ASPH. resembles the look of the Leica 35/1.4 ASPH. (pre-FLE) more closely? I know the Simera is equipped with a floating group, but perhaps it renders more similarly to the Leica pre-FLE, which I�ve heard produces slightly lower contrast and smoother transitions compared to the FLE.

Nov 28, 2024 at 01:24 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.18 #3 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

Fred Miranda wrote:
Hi Steve,

Could it be that the Simera 35/1.4 ASPH. resembles the look of the Leica 35/1.4 ASPH. (pre-FLE) more closely? I know the Simera is equipped with a floating group, but perhaps it renders more similarly to the Leica pre-FLE, which I�ve heard produces slightly lower contrast and smoother transitions compared to the FLE.

I don't know, but that is an interesting thought. I haven't owned the Leica M 35 lux Asph pre-FLE only the FLE, so I am far less acquainted with that lens. Both the pre-FLE and the FLE have the same 9 lens 5 group design with the Aspherical element in the same place and similar shaped elements and they both share all of that with the Simera 35 f/1.4, so Thypoch/DZO could have started with either design only the FLE would point to the Leica FLE lens and the FLE is not the same between the Leica and the Simera (the Simera the FLE encompasses more elements), so Thypoch/DZO very well might have started with the pre-FLE design.

That doesn't fix the issue for me, however, as one of the things I liked about my Leica M 50 lux Asph was the high contrast paired with nice bokeh together with fairly low axial CA and I see similar performance with the Simera 50 f/1.4, if the Simera 35 f/1.4 doesn't have that then I think the lenses don't match that well for cine purposes and Nehemiah's impressions are likely accurate and he got a good copy. My hope is that he got a bad copy and they actually tweaked the Simera 35 f/1.4 to be closer to the 50. Your suggestion I think might well be right and suggests the 35 probably isn't the sort of lens I am looking for, but as more people test it and we get more reviews I am sure a clearer picture will emerge.

Said another way, I think the Leica M 35 lux Asph FLE doesn't match the 50 lux Asph in that it doesn't have as nice bokeh for my tastes and it has noticeably more axial CA. If Thypoch/DZO used the pre-FLE as a starting point to their design then I have different worries that the lens won't have high enough contrast wide open and that it will still have too much axial CA for my tastes. Either way, although I am hopeful for the Simera 35, I am cautiously so and won't be surprised if the lens isn't to my liking.

Nov 28, 2024 at 02:20 PM

nehemiahphoto
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p.18 #4 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

Fred Miranda wrote:
Hi Steve,

Could it be that the Simera 35/1.4 ASPH. resembles the look of the Leica 35/1.4 ASPH. (pre-FLE) more closely? I know the Simera is equipped with a floating group, but perhaps it renders more similarly to the Leica pre-FLE, which I�ve heard produces slightly lower contrast and smoother transitions compared to the FLE.

One pretty notable thing about the ASPH pre-fle 35 Lux is also much different micro-contrast and tonal palate (easily lower than the FLE), and the 35 Pre-FLE has more (too much) axial CA. I have owned it. To be honest, I thought that was a really disappointing lens by Leica. It didn't really hit the compromise of modern/subtle with personality. For that, I would prefer a 31 Pentax. I do enjoy the 35 Lux FLE (distinctly modern) and 35 Lux pre-asph (high degree of character). This is a great review that goes beyond test charts, comparing the 35 Lux ASPH FLE and Pre-FLE:

https://www.pebbleplace.com/reviews/rangefinder/leica_35mm_summilux_fle/index.html

I would guess the 35 Lux ASPH could be thought of as closer to the 35 Simera. Also, after spending more time with the 50 Simera, I have found it to be distinctly lower in micro-contrast than the 50 Lux or 50/1.4 ZA. The contrast in general is on the mid to high side, but micro-contrast is not cracking, nor are the colors as lovely. It's still much better than the 35 Simera by some margin, and a great offering. To learn the lens behavior, I have been doing some serious color profiling. When you really study the 50 Simera against even the ZA 50/1.4, the Simera is very clean with more luminous colors and lower saturation. I have made a profile to match the ZA 50/1.4 and 35 Lux FLE colors pretty well. See below:

@SteveSpencer If you go and read Bastian's review, and you'll find what I have said about the 35 Simera. Contrast WO is lower and off-central, even midzone resolution WO is poor. You'll see a good amount of SA WO until 2.8. Corners need a while to be even decent. You'll also find despite the FLE, the lens needs a couple stops to be contrasty and sharp at MFD, unlike the 35 Lux FLE. You'll also find the corners really aren't great till a couple stops down, and actually need the 5.6-8 range. Ergo is really bad and size is larger. I think the bokeh is smooth structurally somewhat, but it's also much lower contrast which helps. As far as Phillip, I am not sure if he's actually owned the 35 Simera. I asked earlier if he had actually shot the Simeras he has many opinions on, but he ignored the questions (which was sincere). I think spending some time with a lens really is vital to understanding its attributes. And for you, or Fred, or others, I have 35 Simera raws I can email if you're interested. Just PM.

If I want that kind of rendering--less character, bokeh centric and not need high micro-contrast/some SA, reasonable MFD and not decent across the frame till stopped down, I still think the CV 35/1.2viii is the best bet.

35 Lux OG

Simera 50 with 35 Lux profile

50 Simera no profile

Edited on Nov 29, 2024 at 02:26 AM · View previous versions

Nov 28, 2024 at 03:24 PM

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p.18 #5 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

RustyBug wrote:
But, the good news is that there is so much legacy glass in play ... I'm not restricted to KarbeOptics if I don't want them (i.e. I'm using non-Karbe, M glass on my SL). So, there's not a lot to cry about, really. I just feel like they've joined the herd in some

This is why I stick to shooting with Mandler era aberration queens.

I always feel bad for Karbe as he often gets criticized. Kent, this isn't me picking on you. I just quoted you at random. Karbe, IMO has pulled Leica forward with better corrected lenses and I don't think you can say they are characterless. Look at all the attention the Simera 50 is getting for having bokeh like the Summilux ASPH. I think he's produced some fantastic lenses. For me the problem with Leica is not the output, but the price. It's not that I can't afford it, but the gap from the competition has narrowed to the point I don't have to have that much money tied up in a few pieces of camera gear.

Nov 28, 2024 at 05:45 PM

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p.18 #6 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

nehemiahphoto wrote:
I would guess the 35 Lux ASPH could be thought of as closer to the 35 Simera. Also, after spending more time with the 50 Simera, I have found it to be distinctly lower in micro-contrast than the 50 Lux or 50/1.4 ZA. The contrast in general is on the mid to high side, but micro-contrast is not cracking, nor are the colors as lovely. It's still much better than the 35 Simera by some margin, and a great offering. To learn the lens behavior, I have been doing some serious color profiling. When you really study the 50 Simera...Show more →

Thanks for the additional insights into the subtle differences between the Simera 50 and Lux ASPH. It confirms what I thought I saw in some of Fred's comparison images, but it is subtle. Unfortunately at web resolution it's not possible to compare micro contrast differences.

Regarding the Simera 35 vs. 35 Lux ASPH FLE, at least based on MTFs, there are differences. But both lenses are similar in that stopping down considerably increases performance:

The Simera 28 however doesn't have as much of an improvement when stopped down:

Also, 10lp/mm numbers jump a fair amount for the 35 Simera stopped down but the 28 remains consistently high, suggesting the 35 is a lower contrast lens when wide open.

Based on Bastian's review I thought the 35 didn't really do anything for me, whereas the 28 looked fantastic, particularly bokeh/rendering.

And here is the Simera 50/1.4:

Nov 28, 2024 at 06:48 PM

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p.18 #7 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

Micro-contrast might depend on focal distance. In below snip from Alex Barrera's video: left is Simera 50, right is 50 Summ v2 (CF), focal distance around five feet. The web consensus is that the Summilux is a little better at longer distances, the Simera better close up, a performance I first noticed in serhan's and Doug Ball's images.

That makes sense because Leica altered the Summilux design only slightly from its 0.7m MFD in the v1 and pushed the MFD considerably to 0.45m in v2. I doubt many will use it for landscapes but it certainly very competent at mid apertures. I enjoy close up stranger shooting, so close performance was important personally. The distant IQ of the 50mm Simera is a pleasant surprise.

The Simeras rendering is cine inspired and therefore they have strong centers at close distances with gradual fade from there - you see it in the MTF pattern above. The pattern of MTF is a far better guide than the values, for many reasons. DZO don't want the mid-field problems showing up in the cine versions (in particular) for group shots, cross frame movement, panning etc.

Most feel they prefer the vibrant warmth of Simera's palette as compared with the fast Voigtlanders' coolness. I see significant differences in bokeh between the Simera and the Summilux 50s also, as with all Leica comparisons - the target for Leica is great smoothness at the expense of visual cues inside rear bokeh, sometime called 'structure'.

The Summilux truncates highlights in Barrera's video too, he sees this as a black mark against the Simera, but some may want more liveliness in the background. I do, and the files respond well in post for highlight recovery. I don't have a need for the 35mm but I was not surprised it went so well at cleaning up the foreground in the 35mmc comparo vincentbihler did with the 35 Summilux - that one was the Summilux 35mm ASPH pre-FLE, he said. The Simera 35mm default color is warmer there too.

I haven't found anything on the 75mm or their plans for it, not even a lens cut graphic. I'm looking forward to getting my hands on the 28mm too, everyone seems impressed with it. The bokeh and fade character look very good.

Nov 28, 2024 at 09:43 PM

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p.18 #8 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

Here are couple of test shots at or near MFD for the Simera 50/1.4, full images then crops:

Nov 28, 2024 at 09:46 PM

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p.18 #9 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

And one at 200 metres or so, and crop showing color tone handling in a strongly lit natural scene. (UT a7rII, 1/160s, f5.6)

Nov 28, 2024 at 09:51 PM

Ross Martin
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p.18 #10 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

philip_pj wrote:
And one at 200 metres or so, and crop showing color tone handling in a strongly lit natural scene. (UT a7rII, 1/160s, f5.6)

I�m liking the natural, organic look from this lens.

Nov 28, 2024 at 10:17 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.18 #11 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

nehemiahphoto wrote:
One pretty notable thing about the ASPH pre-fle 35 Lux is also much different micro-contrast and tonal palate (easily lower than the FLE), and the 35 Pre-FLE has more (too much) axial CA. I have owned it. To be honest, I thought that was a really disappointing lens by Leica. It didn't really hit the compromise of modern/subtle with personality. For that, I would prefer a 31 Pentax. I do enjoy the 35 Lux FLE (distinctly modern) and 35 Lux pre-asph (high degree of character). This is a great review that goes beyond test charts, comparing the 35 Lux ASPH FLE and Pre-FLE:

https://www.pebbleplace.com/reviews/rangefinder/leica_35mm_summilux_fle/index.html

I would guess the 35 Lux ASPH could be thought of as closer to the 35 Simera. Also, after spending more time with the 50 Simera, I have found it to be distinctly lower in micro-contrast than the 50 Lux or 50/1.4 ZA. The contrast in general is on the mid to high side, but micro-contrast is not cracking, nor are the colors as lovely. It's still much better than the 35 Simera by some margin, and a great offering. To learn the lens behavior, I have been doing some serious color profiling. When you really study the 50 Simera against even the ZA 50/1.4, the Simera is very clean with more luminous colors and lower saturation. I have made a profile to match the ZA 50/1.4 and 35 Lux FLE colors pretty well. See below:

@SteveSpencer If you go and read Bastian's review, and you'll find what I have said about the 35 Simera. Contrast WO is lower and off-central, even midzone resolution WO is poor. You'll see a good amount of SA WO until 2.8. Corners need a while to be even decent. You'll also find despite the FLE, the lens needs a couple stops to be contrasty and sharp at MFD, unlike the 35 Lux FLE. You'll also find the corners really aren't great till a couple stops down, and actually need the 5.6-8 range. Ergo is really bad and size is larger. I think the bokeh is smooth structurally somewhat, but it's also much lower contrast which helps. As far as Phillip, I am not sure if he's actually owned the 35 Simera. I asked earlier if he had actually shot the Simeras he has many opinions on, but he ignored the questions (which was sincere). I think spending some time with a lens really is vital to understanding its attributes. And for you, or Fred, or others, I have 35 Simera raws I can email if you're interested. Just PM.

If I want that kind of rendering--less character, bokeh centric and not need high micro-contrast/some SA, reasonable MFD and not decent across the frame till stopped down, I still think the CV 35/1.2viii is the best bet....Show more →

Nehemiah, thanks for this post. It is very helpful even if it dashes my hopes for the Simera 35. I do very much like what I see from the Simera 50, but the 35 seems to be quite different in ways that matter to me. I also think you are right, however, that you don't really know a lens until you have used it a fair bit. Personally, the Simera 50 will be pretty high up my list of lenses I would like to get to know, but the 35 will be pretty far down that list. I am still forming impressions about how much I would like to get to know the 28, but that lens still looks somewhat promising.

Nov 29, 2024 at 07:21 AM

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p.18 #12 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

Steve Spencer wrote:
Nehemiah, thanks for this post. It is very helpful even if it dashes my hopes for the Simera 35. I do very much like what I see from the Simera 50, but the 35 seems to be quite different in ways that matter to me. I also think you are right, however, that you don't really know a lens until you have used it a fair bit. Personally, the Simera 50 will be pretty high up my list of lenses I would like to get to know, but the 35 will be pretty far down that list. I am...Show more →

For sure Steve.

I too have not closed the door on the 28mm. I still have my GM 24/1.4 as my wide fast work horse and a CV 28/1.5 that is great for its small size with some character. I did play with some RAWs on the Simera 28/1.4, but I�d like to give it a real test run before forming my final conclusions.

It�s definitely larger than I like for a m lens, but not horrible. I am kind of waiting for Thypoch to change the ergo, which someone said they will, before I try a copy.

A 28 + 50 is a lovely kit. After this 50mm and its performance on a stock Sony, I�ll be keeping an eye on the 75mm and 21mm.

Nov 29, 2024 at 11:00 AM

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p.18 #13 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

Yes, changed ergos - more like the beautiful 50 mm f1.4 - might make me change my mind about getting it - especially if it performs well on stock Sony bodies. Meanwhile, I�ll stick to my gorgeous little CV 28mm f2 ultron II.

Nov 29, 2024 at 11:33 AM

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p.18 #14 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

I probably missed this, but can someone with E-mount version clarify if these lenses have electronic contacts? If they do I might be interested in the 28mm and the promised 75mm.

Dec 01, 2024 at 06:11 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.18 #15 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

bobek13 wrote:
I probably missed this, but can someone with E-mount version clarify if these lenses have electronic contacts? If they do I might be interested in the 28mm and the promised 75mm.

I don't have these lenses, not yet anyway, but my understanding is that they do not have electronic contacts.

Dec 01, 2024 at 10:24 AM

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p.18 #16 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

Steve Spencer wrote:
I don't have these lenses, not yet anyway, but my understanding is that they do not have electronic contacts.

thanks for the info... I am in no hurry, can and will wait, for this and the question of optimisation for Sony filter stack thickness, as Bastian seemed to get confusing information on that issue as well.

Cheers, A.

Dec 01, 2024 at 10:40 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.18 #17 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

bobek13 wrote:
thanks for the info... I am in no hurry, can and will wait, for this and the question of optimisation for Sony filter stack thickness, as Bastian seemed to get confusing information on that issue as well.

Cheers, A.

Nehemiah appears to have an answer to that at least for the 50. Check earlier in the thread in the post just above on this page. He got the 50 cine e-mount and it performed differently but well on both a sensor modified Sony camera and a stock Sony camera. The short version is it appears that the 50mm at least in the cine version is modified for the Sony sensor.

Dec 01, 2024 at 11:25 AM

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p.18 #18 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

I think it might be too early to come to that conclusion.
I have used a few 50mm lenses that perform similarly well on Sony as well as Leica
and this Thypoch has a design where the rear element is pretty far away from the sensor.

We would really have to compare the E and M versions of the same lens for that.

Dec 01, 2024 at 12:10 PM

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p.18 #19 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

BastianK wrote:
I think it might be too early to come to that conclusion.
I have used a few 50mm lenses that perform similarly well on Sony as well as Leica
and this Thypoch has a design where the rear element is pretty far away from the sensor.

We would really have to compare the E and M versions of the same lens for that.

But interestingly, your M 50/1.4 Simera seemed to perform quite a bit worse on Stock Sony. I am curious to now try a e-mount 35 or 50/1.4�s.

Maybe Thypoch has only tweaked the cine versions and are just laughing at our attempts to find this all out

Dec 01, 2024 at 12:23 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.18 #20 · Thypoch Simera 50mm f/1.4 ASPH. Review

BastianK wrote:
I think it might be too early to come to that conclusion.
I have used a few 50mm lenses that perform similarly well on Sony as well as Leica
and this Thypoch has a design where the rear element is pretty far away from the sensor.

We would really have to compare the E and M versions of the same lens for that.

I was quite skeptical at first but found this post on the previous page: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1878983/16#16693473 by Nehemiah to be convincing and agree with his reasoning. I do think the 50mm cine E mount version has been modified for Sony E mount stock sensors, but everyone should look at the evidence and decide for themselves.

Dec 01, 2024 at 12:26 PM

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