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Archive 2024 · 28-70 f/2?

  
 
Choderboy
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p.7 #1 · 28-70 f/2?


wind30 wrote:
45 is just 1.5 times 28... it is actually more like a prime than a zoom.


I agree. It's like a 28, 35 and with a tiny crop, a 50 prime.
All in one lens.
With a zoom ring that allows switching between those three primes and anywhere in between.
Kind of 'zoom' like in a Sigma 24-35 way, but really, more prime.








Nov 24, 2024 at 06:19 AM
steamtrain
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p.7 #2 · 28-70 f/2?


wind30 wrote:
45 is just 1.5 times 28... it is actually more like a prime than a zoom.


For IQ and IQ-price ratio it competes with primes, and when comparing to primes it becomes clear how flexible it really is.
A 35mm portrait is pretty different from a 45mm portrait, and yet 35mm can be pretty limiting as 28mm gives you a substantial amount of breathing space in your frame. Probably not enough when comparing to zooms inheriting 24mm, but then again, if you would have to compare to primes, is a 24mm - without the ability to go to 28mm - better in most cases than a 28mm? You might need 24mm to have wide enough, but at the same time wide enough in some cases can be easily too wide in other cases, unless you don't care about stretched faces closer to the borders of your frame.



Nov 24, 2024 at 06:37 AM
steamtrain
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p.7 #3 · 28-70 f/2?


shadow9d9 wrote:
The sigma goes to 45mm for 50g more. With sony, you get 46-70, and lighter.

I don't think the only advantage of the Sigma is a lower price. There's more to it. I think the Sigma has less distortion and I think the Sigma is sharper at borders and corners, so more suitable as a landscape lens.

Furthermore the extra 50g does give you a third of a stop more light.

shadow9d9 wrote:
But it is for people less price conscious. The sony is also shorter, which means packing is easier on intl hauls.


If money is no object and you bring a 24mm f/1.4 and a 50mm f/1.2 as well anyway the f/2.0 zoom wins from the Sigma f/1.8, however, without leaving the primes at home f/1.8 vs f/2.0 isn't marginal in my book, and if you do bring the primes the Tamron 35-150mm gives the 70mm++ reach. I'm not saying the f/2.0 zoom isn't worth the price, but there's a context.


shadow9d9 wrote:





Nov 24, 2024 at 07:00 AM
j4nu
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p.7 #4 · 28-70 f/2?


steamtrain wrote:
If money is no object and you bring a 24mm f/1.4 and a 50mm f/1.2 as well anyway the f/2.0 zoom wins from the Sigma f/1.8, however, without leaving the primes at home f/1.8 vs f/2.0 isn't marginal in my book, and if you do bring the primes the Tamron 35-150mm gives the 70mm++ reach. I'm not saying the f/2.0 zoom isn't worth the price, but there's a context.

That's the thing, it's completely overpriced.
If there were no other options, sure you could justify 3599€. If you're a sports shooter (fps + af) in that range or if for some reason you absolutely need 28-70/2 in one lens on one body, then you also have to pay 3599€ for that privilege.
Otherwise, there are compelling alternatives which cost less and have their own pros and cons, as you've already noted .



Nov 24, 2024 at 07:44 AM
wind30
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p.7 #5 · 28-70 f/2?


j4nu wrote:
And yet, there is no prime you can crop from and retain the IQ of the zoom...


Would you consider a 28-30mm lens a zoom lens? There is a threshold where a limited zoom range does not make sense… for me, the 28-45mm crosses that threshold. I rather get a brighter prime and crop.



Nov 24, 2024 at 06:32 PM
tsdevine
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p.7 #6 · 28-70 f/2?


wind30 wrote:
Would you consider a 28-30mm lens a zoom lens? There is a threshold where a limited zoom range does not make sense… for me, the 28-45mm crosses that threshold. I rather get a brighter prime and crop.


The Leica WATE and MATE are probably the oddest of lenses. The Sony 16-25/2.8 G has a zoom ratio of 1.56 while the Sigma 28-45 is 1.6. So a prime makes sense, as does a zoom of some arbitrary satisfactory range? I get it's too short a range for you, that's okay. A few others like myself are fine with it. No one is wrong here.

I do find the lens extremely flexible and the image quality is sublime. I would much rather use this lens then crop a 28mm lens, again, my preference......I realize other peoples preferences may differ.


Edited on Nov 25, 2024 at 03:02 PM · View previous versions



Nov 24, 2024 at 07:48 PM
shadow9d9
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p.7 #7 · 28-70 f/2?


Space and total weight is important to me. I travel abroad 1/3 of the year. I don't want to lug a million different lenses and like to avoid swapping. I do bring primes, but for specific needs.

The sigma has better borders and corners at f8 for landscape?

You'll have to crop from 46-70, which cuts resolution.

You'll stop down for landscapes, so not more light there.
steamtrain wrote:
I don't think the only advantage of the Sigma is a lower price. There's more to it. I think the Sigma has less distortion and I think the Sigma is sharper at borders and corners, so more suitable as a landscape lens.

Furthermore the extra 50g does give you a third of a stop more light.

If money is no object and you bring a 24mm f/1.4 and a 50mm f/1.2 as well anyway the f/2.0 zoom wins from the Sigma f/1.8, however, without leaving the primes at home f/1.8 vs f/2.0 isn't marginal in my book, and if you
...Show more



Nov 25, 2024 at 02:36 AM
steamtrain
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p.7 #8 · 28-70 f/2?


wind30 wrote:
Would you consider a 28-30mm lens a zoom lens? There is a threshold where a limited zoom range does not make sense… for me, the 28-45mm crosses that threshold. I rather get a brighter prime and crop.

Would you consider any lens being f/1.8 or darker to be a potential useful lens?



Nov 26, 2024 at 01:34 AM
aCuria
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p.7 #9 · 28-70 f/2?




steamtrain wrote:
Would you consider any lens being f/1.8 or darker to be a potential useful lens?


Potential Hasty Generalization fallacy here

Do you really expect people to say that all f/1.8 lenses are or are not useful? There are so many aspects to a lens and the aperture is only one of them



Nov 26, 2024 at 06:29 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.7 #10 · 28-70 f/2?


wind30 wrote:
Would you consider a 28-30mm lens a zoom lens? There is a threshold where a limited zoom range does not make sense… for me, the 28-45mm crosses that threshold. I rather get a brighter prime and crop.


You are right, you could get a 28mm lens and crop to 45mm, but it is a 1.6X crop if you do so. That means in depth of field even with an f/1.4 lens you will only have the depth of field of a 45 f/2.3 lens. You certainly would be giving up some shallow depth of field capability at the long end as well as some megapixels (even with a 60MP camera you are down to 24 MP or so). Can you see why some might prefer that 45 f/1.8 60MP file more than the 45 f/2.3 24 MP file? Even at 35mm, there would be a small advantage of the zoom. The prime would have the depth of field of a 35 f/1.8 lens but you would be down to a 39MP file.

Of course the prime does have shallower depth of field and could have a faster shutter speed on the wide end and you get a full file. So, you would get that advantage if you used the prime at the wide end, with a bit of a penalty at the long end. It seems to me that if you want to primarily use the wide end then yes the fast prime approach makes sense, but as you start to use the middle and long end of the zoom, then the zoom would have an advantage albeit not that big of an advantage that difference may or may not matter to the shooter.

Personally for travel where weight is very important I like the approach of taking fast primes for the focal lengths I most want to use and cropping to fill in other focal lengths when I have to do so, but when I am not concerned about weight I try to crop less. Of course, YMMV.



Nov 26, 2024 at 07:51 AM
tsdevine
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p.7 #11 · 28-70 f/2?


Steve Spencer wrote:
You are right, you could get a 28mm lens and crop to 45mm, but it is a 1.6X crop if you do so. That means in depth of field even with an f/1.4 lens you will only have the depth of field of a 45 f/2.3 lens. You certainly would be giving up some shallow depth of field capability at the long end as well as some megapixels (even with a 60MP camera you are down to 24 MP or so). Can you see why some might prefer that 45 f/1.8 60MP file more than the 45 f/2.3 24
...Show more

This has probably veered way off topic at this point (just a general comment, not directed at you Steve). Good luck finding an AF 28mm prime that is faster than f/1.8 in E mount (other than the Sigma 28/1.4 which is also large and heavy).....so hypothetically on paper the getting a faster 28mm and cropping is an option, but not really, at least right now.

A f/1.4 prime is 2/3rds a stop faster. Not insignificant, but not huge either. For me, f/1.8 is fast enough and allows me to not take a fast prime (again YMMV). When I'm taking primes, I take a lot of primes, and the weight adds up. My all zoom setup is the Sigma 14-24/2.8, 28-45/1.8 and 70-200/2.8 GM II (along with the 1.4x TC). That covers UWA to long'ish telephoto in 3 lenses. And a relatively fast f/1.8 in the wide to normal range. All weather sealed and internal focus. Sure there is a gap between 24/28 and 45/70, but when I have my primes there are always gaps. I've been using a Mountainsmith Descent sling and the Mindshift PhotoCross 15 as my means to carry these lenses. Both discontinued, but I already had the Descent laying around and I got a killer deal on the PhotoCross on a B&H DealZone deal.

Would everyone want to carry larger and heavier lenses? No. Is it 100% crazy, again, I don't think so. And at the end of the day, choices are good. Pick what works for you, respect others choices.

But back on topic, the GM 28-70/2 would pair nicely with the kit I described above and you'd have almost no gaps. Swap the 14-24 above with the GM 12-24/2.8 and you'd have sort of a killer Sony trinity that also gives you a stop more than the GM II 24-70/2.8.

The original Canon 24-70/2.8 was 950 grams, which is the same weight as the Sigma 28-45. The GM 28-70/2 is a bit lighter. Sure you use 24mm, but it can be covered by another lens. If you must have 24mm on the same lens that covers the normal range, then of course these lenses that start at 28mm aren't ideal.

And no reason to fault people who prefer to carry primes instead of zooms. I'm super picky about zooms, they need to be in the same zip code as my excellent primes. I've found an "on paper" exercise when it comes to lenses isn't always reflective of actual use of a lens. For me, the proof comes in actual use of a lens.



Nov 26, 2024 at 09:47 AM
mogul
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p.7 #12 · 28-70 f/2?


I thought this utube video describing the lens was helpful.

&ab_channel=cammackey



Nov 26, 2024 at 10:02 AM
aCuria
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p.7 #13 · 28-70 f/2?



tsdevine wrote:
This has probably veered way off topic at this point (just a general comment, not directed at you Steve). Good luck finding an AF 28mm prime that is faster than f/1.8 in E mount (other than the Sigma 28/1.4 which is also large and heavy).....so hypothetically on paper the getting a faster 28mm and cropping is an option, but not really, at least right now.

A f/1.4 prime is 2/3rds a stop faster. Not insignificant, but not huge either. For me, f/1.8 is fast enough and allows me to not take a fast prime (again YMMV). When I'm taking primes, I
...Show more

The 28-70/2, 14-24 and 12-24 either can’t do close to 1:4 magnification or are soft when close focusing. This makes it problematic when sticking them into the same kit when they have the same weakness.

Fortunately the 28-45 doesn’t seem to have the close focusing problem.

The 28-45 seems to be a “35mm ++” type of zoom. It’s very excellent at 36mm (according to lenstip, as sharp or even slightly sharper as the 35GM!) but there is some image quality degradation at 28 and 45.

At 28 the centre is very sharp but CA is not well controlled. At 45mm it’s significantly softer than at 36, with resolution at f/2.8 dropping from 84lp/mm to 69lp/mm. This much resolution drop is similar to cropping from 36mm: 84 * 36 / 45 = 67.2!

I think the 28-45/2.8 can be thought of as a 35mm prime, which trades off weight and f/1.4 capability in exchange for being able to zoom to 28mm. The 45mm side is not as impressive, we should be able to achieve similar sharpness by cropping with the 35GM.



Nov 26, 2024 at 10:59 AM
tsdevine
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p.7 #14 · 28-70 f/2?


aCuria wrote:
The 28-70/2, 14-24 and 12-24 either can’t do close to 1:4 magnification or are soft when close focusing. This makes it problematic when sticking them into the same kit. The 28-45 doesn’t seem to have the same problem.

The 28-45 seems to be a “35mm ++” type of zoom. It’s very excellent at 36mm but there is some image quality degradation at 28 and 45.

At 28 the centre is very sharp but CA is not well controlled. At 45mm it’s significantly softer than at 36, with resolution at f/2.8 dropping from 84lp/mm to 69lp/mm. This much resolution drop is
...Show more

Did you do these measurements yourself, or was a based on some published test? What was the sample size of lenses that were used to generate your very precise measurements. And what specific 28mm fast prime lens are you comparing in your test? As I said before, my preference is to use this lens, others preferences may be different......and that's okay. But I'm not aware of an AF fast E mount 28mm lens that would shift my preference away from the 28-45.

If the argument is that we ignore 28mm and focus on a 35mm lens, well, that's pretty apples to oranges. If you've seen me post in the past, 28mm is my favorite FL.

You realize I've been shooting the lens for like 4 or 5 months now right? It's the best 28mm lens I have or have tried. The long end isn't quite as strong, but it's still excellent. I mean I have and use the CV 50/2 APO, it's a pretty decent lens. It is better than the Sigma at infinity, no argument. You can look at my profile, I've seen decent glass.

It's perfectly fine if we disagree here, but this on paper exercise seems a little thin to me. So let's just say both preferences are ok?



Nov 26, 2024 at 11:33 AM
wind30
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p.7 #15 · 28-70 f/2?


mogul wrote:
I thought this utube video describing the lens was helpful.

&ab_channel=cammackey


No foliage though which is where I shoot most… seldom go dessert…

Anymore reviews on the rendering in this lens? This lens will literally replace so many primes so if the rendering is not good, it is just not worth the money as I will feel dissatisfied. If the rendering is good, it might actually be a very good choice as I love the 70mm. I might just live with a 14mm 28-70mm and maybe a 135mm.



Nov 26, 2024 at 06:27 PM
tsdevine
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p.7 #16 · 28-70 f/2?


Not sure this was posted...not a ton of foliage, there there are a couple of shots.

https://www.dpreview.com/samples/6770159472/sony-28-70mm-f2-sample-gallery

Some test shots from Gordon, again not sure if these were posted already.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/cameralabs/54161513948/in/album-72177720322138366/



Nov 26, 2024 at 06:37 PM
RatX2
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p.7 #17 · 28-70 f/2?


Many of the DP review shots were ~40-70. In this case I'd use my 35 1.4 or 50 1.2 GM so not sure they showed the versatility of the lens. For me, it's a 28-50 f/2 environment lens with some extra reach. I'd buy it if I cared about the 50-70 range. As it is, my Sigma 28-45 covers my favorite FLs. I carry other zooms for when I need wider (16-35 PZ) or tighter (70-200 f/4 II).


Nov 26, 2024 at 07:36 PM
GMPhotography
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p.7 #18 · 28-70 f/2?


From DP Review Gallery

Shot at 52mm at F2. bokeh balls look good




  ILCE-1M2    FE 28-70mm F2 GM lens    52mm    f/2.0    1/60s    320 ISO    0.0 EV  




Nov 26, 2024 at 08:30 PM
GMPhotography
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p.7 #19 · 28-70 f/2?


This was at 60mm F2. I like the bokeh on it






  ILCE-1M2    FE 28-70mm F2 GM lens    60mm    f/2.0    1/60s    100 ISO    +0.3 EV  




Nov 26, 2024 at 08:31 PM
Ross Martin
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p.7 #20 · 28-70 f/2?


GMPhotography wrote:
This was at 60mm F2. I like the bokeh on it



That rendering looks pleasant to me. Trying to download a bit larger:




  ILCE-1M2    FE 28-70mm F2 GM lens    60mm    f/2.0    1/60s    100 ISO    +0.3 EV  




Nov 26, 2024 at 09:19 PM
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