p.4 #1 · Does Sony have the worst manual focus assist
Knut. wrote:
The issue is that the green boxes do not light up with precision. They are not there at peak sharpness but have some leeway (even in 2024 camera models of Canon and Nikon). So to me the green boxes are not there yet. It might be "good enough" (everyone's mileage may vary here and the quality of an image is clearly not defined by sharpness alone). But for perfect sharpness (for example on an eye) an AF lens in AFC modus is the way to go. Even slight movements of the subject or the photographer can clearly push sharpness off. MF lenses to me are made for a different use case. Personally I have both: AF and MF lenses and I use them according to their strengths.
To quote Snapsy "Nikon's MF assist on the MILC uses the same phase-detect focus sensing mechanism that's used by the camera's AF system, so the green box confirmation for MF is as precise as if you used autofocus on the subject. In other words, very good. It's also why the feature is only available for lenses with electrical contacts (or adapters that simulate them), since the sensing mechanism needs knowledge of the lens's exit pupil distance in order to properly evaluate the focus phase."
Its clear from this thread- People prefer other options for achieving critical focus so the "best" isn't always the same answer for everyone. Sony is however seriously lacking in flexibility in how one can achieve manual focus on its camera bodies. The amazing viewfinder of the A7Rv paired with more MF options would please a lot of people.
p.4 #2 · Does Sony have the worst manual focus assist
Sony is resting on their laurels in terms of features, and I think relying too much on their once world class AF. While other manufacturers have copied Sony's features in hopes of attaining parity, Sony has not done so with the competition so they can maintain some distance ahead.
Yes, Sony's manual focus assist is the worst of the big three and I wish they improved in this aspect because I've come to really like MF since getting into the MILC system.
p.4 #3 · Does Sony have the worst manual focus assist
Knut. wrote:
When the response time of the green boxes is really instantaneous and perfectly precise I'm fine if Sony added them (but why not wait until technology is there? I believe it is still a problem of sensor and processor speed and the speed of the necessary algorythms)
Do you really think a camera that is capable of 120 autofocus / autoexposure calculations every second cannot do the same when you're manually turning the helicoid?
p.4 #4 · Does Sony have the worst manual focus assist
tsdevine wrote:
Personal opinion, features that matter to some people, and can be disabled for others who don't care, isn't a bad thing.
I'd like
Auto EFCS
Trap focus
Probably a few other things that I can't think of at the moment. But for people who aren't interested in those features, they can just leave them off. I can see the usefulness for some people to have the green box. I might use it, might not.
If another camera company has implemented these features, we know it's possible. We know someone has figured out to provide them without the world coming to an end. Where do we draw the line? Are there features that Sony has already implemented that they shouldn't have, based on some criteria of overloading a camera with features? Where is that line drawn. Because if the line is drawn where if Sony does implement it, it's okay, if it doesn't....well then it would be too far if they did.....that doesn't pass the smell test for me.
For example, I don't like using auto-magnify. Doesn't mean I don't think the camera should have the feature. I know there are many people who love that feature....Show more →
p.4 #5 · Does Sony have the worst manual focus assist
Cosina's Voigtländer lenses for E-mount and X-mount have "built-in distance encoders to support camera models equipped with 5-axis in-body image stabilization utilizing distance information to the subject to compensate for camera shake", but their Nikon Z and Canon RF lenses don't have those distance encoders and they only support 3-axis IBIS. Not sure how the focus mechanism will know the exact exit pupil distance in that case.
p.4 #7 · Does Sony have the worst manual focus assist
tsdevine wrote:
That actually exists in newer cameras, at least in my a7R V.
Right! Forgot this is not a "Missing features on A1" thread for a moment ...
Oct 22, 2024 at 10:53 AM
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p.4 #8 · Does Sony have the worst manual focus assist
RustyRus wrote:
From my understanding- This is 100% false-
To quote Snapsy "Nikon's MF assist on the MILC uses the same phase-detect focus sensing mechanism that's used by the camera's AF system, so the green box confirmation for MF is as precise as if you used autofocus on the subject. In other words, very good. It's also why the feature is only available for lenses with electrical contacts (or adapters that simulate them), since the sensing mechanism needs knowledge of the lens's exit pupil distance in order to properly evaluate the focus phase."
Its clear from this thread- People prefer other options for achieving critical focus so the "best" isn't always the same answer for everyone. Sony is however seriously lacking in flexibility in how one can achieve manual focus on its camera bodies. The amazing viewfinder of the A7Rv paired with more MF options would please a lot of people. ...Show more →
As I see it there are 4 basic options for MF on mirrorless cameras.
1) Magnify the image -- This method is made possible by having an EVF that can zoom into a specific area and then focus can be achieved by visually seeing that what one wants to be sharp is sharp. If you use this method of MF, then you want to be able to easily select where you want to zoom in and when you zoom in you want the image to be clear. This method is highly dependent on a good EVF, and IMO after using MF on several camera (Sony A7r II, Sony A7S, Nikon Z7, Fuji GFX 50S, Sony A7r V) that the best experience is with the Sony A7r V. This method, IMO, is most dependent on the cameras EVF.
2) A box using the AF to indicate when what is under the box is in focus - the clear advantage of this approach is that you can see the whole composition while focussing and you can't while using magnification. If that matters to you, then you may like this approach. You won't be able to see the actual thing in focus on the EVF in most instances, however, and some of us prefer that. With Nikon this works very well for getting in focus shots. It is available for Canon cameras as well and reports are it works well. It isn't available for Sony cameras. This method is dependent on the camera AF, so we might expect it to work better on a Nikon Z8 than on a Nikon Z7, for example, although in my experience it worked pretty well even on an original Nikon Z7.
3) Focus peaking -- this uses colored pixels to indicate what is in focus and what is not. Like methods #2 it can be used while viewing the whole scene with that advantage and the cost that it can be hard to see visually the details on which one wants to focus. The amount of pixels showing color and when they light up based on focus can be adjusted. This also means that depending on your setup sometimes it leads people astray thinking what they want is in focus when it is not. With practice one can probably tune it to get good focus and not suggest it is in focus when it is not. I haven't had the patience to do that. All systems have this option. It seems some people really like it and others complain about it not being precise enough with every system.
4) Picture in Picture focussing -- this option is only available as far as I know on Panasonic cameras. It sounds cool, but I have never used it. The idea is that a magnified picture of the desired focus location I overlayed on the full scene. I don't know if I would like it but I might.
There may be other options I am missing, but these are the ones I know about. Personally, I like to use the magnified view and my Sony A7r V works great for that. If I wanted to use the box with AF option, then I would hate that Sony doesn't have it. If I wanted to use the Picture in Picture option, however, I would hate that everyone other than Panasonic doesn't have it.
So Does Sony have the worst manual focus aids as the thread title asks? It does if you want to use the box with AF method as it doesn't do that at all, but if you prefer the magnification method as I do then some Sony cameras do MF exceptionally well. If you prefer using peaking then they are all probably the same, and if you really want to have Picture in Picture then you pretty much only have Panasonic as an option. I don't think there is one single answer to the question posed in the thread title.
p.4 #9 · Does Sony have the worst manual focus assist
foto16 wrote:
I know the title exaggerates a bit, but I'm envious of Canon and Nikon users. Canon's focus guide shows when the focus is in front of or back to the subject, and a green box of focus confirmation appears when the focus is right on the subject. Nikon ZF recently also introduced the green box focus confirmation. But Sony only has peaking, and peaking is regarded as not accurate.
The Nikon and Canon focus assist features rely on exactly the same AF sensor measurements that are used for focus peaking - the accuracy is the same for all of them. The only difference is how the information is presented.
p.4 #10 · Does Sony have the worst manual focus assist
Steve Spencer wrote:
As I see it there are 4 basic options for MF on mirrorless cameras.
1) Magnify the image -- This method is made possible by having an EVF that can zoom into a specific area and then focus can be achieved by visually seeing that what one wants to be sharp is sharp. If you use this method of MF, then you want to be able to easily select where you want to zoom in and when you zoom in you want the image to be clear. This method is highly dependent on a good EVF, and IMO after using MF on several camera (Sony A7r II, Sony A7S, Nikon Z7, Fuji GFX 50S, Sony A7r V) that the best experience is with the Sony A7r V. This method, IMO, is most dependent on the cameras EVF.
2) A box using the AF to indicate when what is under the box is in focus - the clear advantage of this approach is that you can see the whole composition while focussing and you can't while using magnification. If that matters to you, then you may like this approach. You won't be able to see the actual thing in focus on the EVF in most instances, however, and some of us prefer that. With Nikon this works very well for getting in focus shots. It is available for Canon cameras as well and reports are it works well. It isn't available for Sony cameras. This method is dependent on the camera AF, so we might expect it to work better on a Nikon Z8 than on a Nikon Z7, for example, although in my experience it worked pretty well even on an original Nikon Z7.
3) Focus peaking -- this uses colored pixels to indicate what is in focus and what is not. Like methods #2 it can be used while viewing the whole scene with that advantage and the cost that it can be hard to see visually the details on which one wants to focus. The amount of pixels showing color and when they light up based on focus can be adjusted. This also means that depending on your setup sometimes it leads people astray thinking what they want is in focus when it is not. With practice one can probably tune it to get good focus and not suggest it is in focus when it is not. I haven't had the patience to do that. All systems have this option. It seems some people really like it and others complain about it not being precise enough with every system.
4) Picture in Picture focussing -- this option is only available as far as I know on Panasonic cameras. It sounds cool, but I have never used it. The idea is that a magnified picture of the desired focus location I overlayed on the full scene. I don't know if I would like it but I might.
There may be other options I am missing, but these are the ones I know about. Personally, I like to use the magnified view and my Sony A7r V works great for that. If I wanted to use the box with AF option, then I would hate that Sony doesn't have it. If I wanted to use the Picture in Picture option, however, I would hate that everyone other than Panasonic doesn't have it.
So Does Sony have the worst manual focus aids as the thread title asks? It does if you want to use the box with AF method as it doesn't do that at all, but if you prefer the magnification method as I do then some Sony cameras do MF exceptionally well. If you prefer using peaking then they are all probably the same, and if you really want to have Picture in Picture then you pretty much only have Panasonic as an option. I don't think there is one single answer to the question posed in the thread title....Show more →
Well said!
I'd add to that:
5) focus peaking + magnification - I find it faster than magnification alone most often and a lot more precise than only peaking
6) "eye MF" - so the camera tracks eyes on the screen and you can either press the button to magnify right on the eye or use the "green box" method to focus on the eye.
p.4 #11 · Does Sony have the worst manual focus assist
molson wrote:
The Nikon and Canon focus assist features rely on exactly the same AF sensor measurements that are used for focus peaking - the accuracy is the same for all of them. The only difference is how the information is presented.
Regarding accuracy, are you speaking from your own experience using all three systems (because we hear different opinions)?
Sure they all use the same data, but "how the information is presented" makes a huge difference. To my understanding peaking and confirmation are not the same thing. When the green box lights up, it tells you the subject under the square is in focus per the algorithm's calculation and there is no user input in it, while the peaking highlights will appear within a range of MF positions and you have to eyeball at which MF position you think the contrast is the highest. This makes a difference in shooting speed and the required user input.
p.4 #12 · Does Sony have the worst manual focus assist
I’m not pointing fingers since camera sales clearly show that Japanese camera companies produce cameras that are most in demand. That said, my perspective is different. I like Leica and Hasselblad for their simple menus and limited knobs and buttons. Users of these cameras are forced to understand how their cameras work and use them within the confines of the German, or Swedish(Chinese) feature set. Sure it would be nice if the X2D did continuous autofocus. Is it an ignored request, are they working on it, or is the processing power of the camera inadequate? I don’t know, but you learn how to use the camera based on feature set and for many, you appreciate the limits and the simplicity. The Japanese camera must do all things and have many buttons..my X100 series cameras.. and a few others excepted. I view the manual focus system to be useable, yet I do struggle using the LCD with photochromic lenses on a sunny day. I only have 21, 35 and 85mm manual focus E-Mount lenses and really, only the 85mm can be a challenge, but the reward is that I can bring into focus small areas that autofocus can struggle with, like shooting small shielded aspects of orchids with a bright aperture. Eyes in focus in a dynamic environment are better handled by autofocus, but in more static situations, set routine works great on Sony cameras, so add the green box, or whatever feature. I don’t really care. After all, Japanese engineers and more so the marketeers will hear your plea. All I want is a better EVF on the A7CR…
Regarding feature set of Nikon vs Sony, which is off topic here, but addressed in another thread. I’m shooting Sony because of the small size and great autofocus. Nikon and Canon can be great in other ways, but for me, it’s irrelevant. I hope that Nikon and Canon shooters can say the same for other brands, If so, great. If not, have fun and shoot what you want. I choose different systems for different features. Leica.. unbelievable Monochrom camera in the very small. ‘M’ package. Hasselblad, for a compact medium format camera with great colors and lenses up there with the best. Sony for size and fast autofocus. I don’t really need any of them to change. My only two wishes are for continuous autofocus and better EVF in a small Sony ‘R’ camera.
p.4 #13 · Does Sony have the worst manual focus assist
Juha Kannisto wrote:
Cosina's Voigtländer lenses for E-mount and X-mount have "built-in distance encoders to support camera models equipped with 5-axis in-body image stabilization utilizing distance information to the subject to compensate for camera shake", but their Nikon Z and Canon RF lenses don't have those distance encoders and they only support 3-axis IBIS. Not sure how the focus mechanism will know the exact exit pupil distance in that case.
This is a very interesting and suprising thing! I myself am interested in Voigtländer lenses. These are my most used manual focus lenses and thus I compared their usage on different systems.
I was not aware of the fact reported above, that Juha has pointed out (no distance encoding for Z and RF Voigtländers).
But comparing the manual focus experience of the same Voigtländer lenses on a Sony A7r5 and the corresponding Nikon body sometime early this year I personally prefered the experience on the Sony (before someone screams: I want to point out that this was a personal experience).
But so much that I posted a differing view to the title of this thread. I want to be very clear that this is my personal observation and that others may have different valid approaches to mf and whose requirements may not yet be met by Sony. My oposition has not been against these requirements but against the broad statement that Sony has the worst manual focus experience per se.
Steve Spencer has been very helpful in listing the very varying aproaches to manual focus that exist. They are all valid. Depending on the approach one uses the Sony aids are very good (possibly better than) or lacking compared to other companies.
p.4 #14 · Does Sony have the worst manual focus assist
foto16 wrote:
Regarding accuracy, are you speaking from your own experience using all three systems (because we hear different opinions)?
Sure they all use the same data, but "how the information is presented" makes a huge difference. To my understanding peaking and confirmation are not the same thing. When the green box lights up, it tells you the subject under the square is in focus per the algorithm's calculation and there is no user input in it, while the peaking highlights will appear within a range of MF positions and you have to eyeball at which MF position you think the contrast is the highest. This makes a difference in shooting speed and the required user input. ...Show more →
I believe peaking highlights the pixels that have maximized contrast or those that are „close enough“ to very high contrast. It is user adjustable how many pixel are included. Contrast focus is contaminated by the contrast of the subject. Very high contrast objects in the scene will light up even if they are not perfectly infocus.
The „box“ that lights up also relies on contrast detection as well but the threshhold at which the box lights up is not adjustable by the user (It is given by the manufacturer, at least as far as I am aware of, I may be corrected on this). If it is contrast detection, it is subject to the same distractors like high contrast of some features in the image).
It would be interesting if someone could clarify if the box relies on phase detection, then it would truely be a different mechanism, but I am not aware that it is. To my knowledge phase detection requires distance encoding by the lens and Voigtländer lenses do not offer this for Canon and Nikon (and many other manual focus lenses don‘t offer this either)
p.4 #16 · Does Sony have the worst manual focus assist
Never had a problem with Sony's MF or manual-assist modes. Always fast and accurate.
It sounds like Canon and Nikon AF are from another planet, but I'm happy with Sony offerings and the huge lens choices.
Now the menus, on the other hand...
p.4 #17 · Does Sony have the worst manual focus assist
I would also like to see focus confirmation like on the Zf, ideally with eye detection. If Sony could make it work as accurately as the AF, that would be great, also because you could then rely on the display and focus in full screen view without having to zoom in.
p.4 #18 · Does Sony have the worst manual focus assist
I like the green box focus confirmation with my Nikons, but still haven't trusted it fully. I really liked Sony and Leica in that the moment I started manual focusing it would automatically zoom in.
p.4 #19 · Does Sony have the worst manual focus assist
j4nu wrote:
Well said!
I'd add to that:
5) focus peaking + magnification - I find it faster than magnification alone most often and a lot more precise than only peaking
6) "eye MF" - so the camera tracks eyes on the screen and you can either press the button to magnify right on the eye or use the "green box" method to focus on the eye.
...