p.16 #1 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
Steve Spencer wrote:
[What I won't agreed to disagree on is whether it is reasonable to make inferences from a small number of instances. It simply is not and I won't agree to disagree on that matter any more than I will agree to disagree about what 2 + 2 =
I see your point and autofocus is certainly something very complex, depending on the individual situation etc. However, sometimes a (very) small number of instances can be very telling and right on point. Just think about the af issues when the first Batis 40 copies arrived at customers and the discussion we had. But of course, what Zeiss did there was somehow unique.
As for the GMII, I still expect it to be very good and also quick. But we will see.
p.16 #2 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
Steve Spencer wrote:
I will try to keep my responses brief, but you keep coming back and adding more and then complain I am not addressing everything. So here goes:
What I am saying with 2 + 2 = is not anything about AF. I have no clue where you got that impression. What I am saying as you quoted is that making inferences from a small number of instances is not reasonable. That's it.
Edit #1: Don't make claims about other people's intentions on this forum. It isn't cool and it is against the forum rules.
Edit #2: I am glad we agree that you can't say anything about AF of Sony GM lenses based on the # of AF motors at this point.
Edit #3: Don't ask questions with disputed premises. The classic is, "have you stopped beating your wife?" which includes the premise that the person being asked the question is an abuser. Your questions have the same sort of disputed premises. I don't think my posting of MF picture is this thread was ridiculous, so asking if I noticed they were ridiculous is a poor question with a disputed question. I won't answer it. I posted those pictures to demonstrate that donblox's shooting of kids at a playground might not be a challenging AF situation. I stand by that point. As to when I will make an inference about whether 2 vs 4 AF motors matter for AF, I will do that when there are dozens of lens that have 2 and 4 AF motors. It simply takes that many instances of any characteristic before you have enough evidence to evaluate it.
And finally yes you can claim whatever you want based on whatever limited data you want. People do that all the time. People claim the world is flat. People claim vaccines cause autism. People claim Haitian immigrants in Springfield, OH are eating people's pets. All of those claims are based on very limited instances of events. So you can claim whatever you want about Sony lenses, but my point is not that you can't make such claims, but rather if you make such claims based on a very limited number of instances it isn't reasonable to do so and I stand by that claim. ...Show more →
I'll start off by saying your attempts to mock me / discredit my arguments are laughable and achieve the exact opposite.
Why else compare 5 years of Sony GM primes releases data to flat-earthers, Trump (isn't politics against the rules of this board?) and anti-vaxxers?
Your "2+2=" elaboration is a missed point too, as I can (and did) apply it to your own posts, the same way you apply it to mine. It's not "coming back and adding more", as this is the argument that started this "debate": whether 85/1.4GM II brings significant AF improvement.
Your statement: Steve Spencer wrote:
I will stop here too and just say I agree that such shots are not a complicated motion, and I have had no trouble with them with the Sigma 85 DN or the 85 GM I and the A9 (first version) I used to have or with my A7r V. Once upon a time I didn't even have trouble with such shots using manual focus. Although I could imagine any system missing a couple in such situations I would expect that a short burst to produce at least a couple of nice shots (as Don reported he finds with the Sigma 85 DN and the A7 IV) with just about any system. I don't consider such a situation a strenuous test of AF at all. ...Show more →
The last line is a ridiculous (completely unreasonable in your terms) and untrue statement to me.
So, as I said before, if you don't find one the more demanding AF conditions a "strenuous test of AF at all", there is really nothing we can talk about. But you then decided to sidetrack this thread into telling me I cannot make any predictions based on 5y Sony GM primes lens releases data.
Somehow it seems it has missed you, but in real world we live in, our decisions are often based on incomplete data set (might I suggest some reading on that while I grab my stats book?). So, while you're waiting for "dozens" of GM 2nd gen primes, I'm free to make my educated guesses based on the data I have.
And you still didn't answer how you're going to test your model against different relations (design goals, constraints, available resources, global conditions, etc.) between lenses in your sample data , reinforcing my point.
Regarding adhering to this forum's rules, maybe we can ask Fred how many your vs mine posts he had to delete?
Also, maybe just stick to the main points to keep the discussion on track instead of posting unrelated anecdotes...
I am glad that we agree I can make predictions on 2 vs 4 AF motors performance in the end...
Sep 22, 2024 at 05:53 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.16 #3 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
j4nu wrote:
I'll start off by saying your attempts to mock me / discredit my arguments are laughable and achieve the exact opposite.
Why else compare 5 years of Sony GM primes releases data to flat-earthers, Trump (isn't politics against the rules of this board?) and anti-vaxxers?
Your "2+2=" elaboration is a missed point too, as I can (and did) apply it to your own posts, the same way you apply it to mine. It's not "coming back and adding more", as this is the argument that started this "debate": whether 85/1.4GM II brings significant AF improvement.
Your statement:
The last line is a ridiculous (completely unreasonable in your terms) and untrue statement to me.
So, as I said before, if you don't find one the more demanding AF conditions a "strenuous test of AF at all", there is really nothing we can talk about. But you then decided to sidetrack this thread into telling me I cannot make any predictions based on 5y Sony GM primes lens releases data.
Somehow it seems it has missed you, but in real world we live in, our decisions are often based on incomplete data set (might I suggest some reading on that while I grab my stats book?). So, while you're waiting for "dozens" of GM 2nd gen primes, I'm free to make my educated guesses based on the data I have.
And you still didn't answer how you're going to test your model against different relations (design goals, constraints, available resources, global conditions, etc.) between lenses in your sample data , reinforcing my point.
Regarding adhering to this forum's rules, maybe we can ask Fred how many your vs mine posts he had to delete?
Also, maybe just stick to the main points to keep the discussion on track instead of posting unrelated anecdotes...
I am glad that we agree I can make predictions on 2 vs 4 AF motors performance in the end...
Feel free to ask Fred how many of my posts he has had to delete. You will find of my almost 20,000 posts it is a very small number and they were deleted for coherence not for my breaking the rules of the forum. So be careful with your false accusations. I have been a positive contributing member to this forum for close to 20 years.
And once again, I did not mock you. I just pointed out how I thought your reasoning about the AF of this lens, that is in very few people's hands at this point, was an unreasonable analysis. When I think your analysis is unreasonable I will continue to do so.
Bottom line is I think there is not enough evidence yet to make a good or even reasonable analysis of the AF of this lens yet. I think there is even less evidence to judge whether 2 XD AF motors vs. 4 XD AF motors is an important variable in GM lenses. Feel free to come to a different conclusion, but if you do and I think your reasoning is faulty know that I might challenge your reasoning.
p.16 #4 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
Steve Spencer wrote:
Feel free to ask Fred how many of my posts he has had to delete. You will find of my almost 20,000 posts it is a very small number and they were deleted for coherence not for my breaking the rules of the forum. So be careful with your false accusations. I have been a positive contributing member to this forum for close to 20 years.
So, exactly what you have been doing in this thread. I guess 20k posts is not enough to learn from...
Steve Spencer wrote:
And once again, I did not mock you. I just pointed out how I thought your reasoning about the AF of this lens, that is in very few people's hands at this point, was an unreasonable analysis. When I think your analysis is unreasonable I will continue to do so.
Sure, you can deny the obvious. People reading this thread will make up their own mind.
Steve Spencer wrote:
Bottom line is I think there is not enough evidence yet to make a good or even reasonable analysis of the AF of this lens yet. I think there is even less evidence to judge whether 2 XD AF motors vs. 4 XD AF motors is an important variable in GM lenses. Feel free to come to a different conclusion, but if you do and I think your reasoning is faulty know that I might challenge your reasoning.
Thank you, and that's exactly what I'm going to do. I hope that 85/1.4GM II proves to be an outlier, as that will be a reason for me to buy one.
And of course no response to the stats questions I've repeated. I guess we'll have to wait for those "dozens" of GM 2nd gen lens releases data.
Sep 22, 2024 at 06:59 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.16 #5 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
j4nu wrote:
So, exactly what you have been doing in this thread. I guess 20k posts is not enough to learn from...
Sure, you can deny the obvious. People reading this thread will make up their own mind.
Thank you, and that's exactly what I'm going to do. I hope that 85/1.4GM II proves to be an outlier, as that will be a reason for me to buy one.
And of course no response to the stats questions I've repeated. I guess we'll have to wait for those "dozens" of GM 2nd gen lens releases data.
I am not sure what response you want to your stats question. I have and will continue to make judgments about lenses based on the amount of evidence available to make those judgments. When there isn't any or enough evidence to make sound judgments then I will withhold judgment. I will at times make guesses but I will acknowledge they are guesses and not based on evidence and I will acknowledge I am uncertain about those guesses. Yes, in the real world we have to make decisions at times without evidence, but we should also appreciate those decisions are being made without evidence and we should have a degree of uncertainty about our ideas and decisions in those contexts. I thought I had made that plain already, but you keep saying I didn't answer when I believe I have.
Again, in this particular instance with this particular lens we have very little evidence, IMO, to make any sort of judgment about the AF of this lens. The good news is we will have lots of evidence soon, so I think it makes sense to be patient and wait until that evidence comes in within the next couple of months.
p.16 #6 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
Yall take your argument to PM or something. The need to get the last word in is exhausting and there's nothing really to contribute till the lens is in hand.
Anyway lens shipping in US this week right? I'm torn on it but still have my pre order. The MKI has been such a critical part of my photography for the past 5 years that I have to try it myself but also the bar is set pretty high in terms of rendering. But if the lens is great the FOMO will hit hard if this guy is sold out for fall photo season
p.16 #7 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
Steve Spencer wrote:
I am not sure what response you want to your stats question. I have and will continue to make judgments about lenses based on the amount of evidence available to make those judgments. When there isn't any or enough evidence to make sound judgments then I will withhold judgment. I will at times make guesses but I will acknowledge they are guesses and not based on evidence and I will acknowledge I am uncertain about those guesses. Yes, in the real world we have to make decisions at times without evidence, but we should also appreciate those decisions are being made without evidence and we should have a degree of uncertainty about our ideas and decisions in those contexts. I thought I had made that plain already, but you keep saying I didn't answer when I believe I have.
Again, in this particular instance with this particular lens we have very little evidence, IMO, to make any sort of judgment about the AF of this lens. The good news is we will have lots of evidence soon, so I think it makes sense to be patient and wait until that evidence comes in within the next couple of months....Show more →
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Just read my previous post - it's not that hard.
Mystik wrote:
Yall take your argument to PM or something. The need to get the last word in is exhausting and there's nothing really to contribute till the lens is in hand.
Anyway lens shipping in US this week right? I'm torn on it but still have my pre order. The MKI has been such a critical part of my photography for the past 5 years that I have to try it myself but also the bar is set pretty high in terms of rendering. But if the lens is great the FOMO will hit hard if this guy is sold out for fall photo season...Show more →
Sure, but I'm not the one who started it, why should I be the one forced to finish it? This is exactly my dear interlocutor's modus operandi - wear you out and then have the last word. One would expect that 20k posts is enough to learn when to stop, but alas.
(I silently hope enough people report these messages so that Fred removes them, but he seems to have little interest in this lens and its thread...)
Sep 22, 2024 at 08:08 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.16 #8 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
Mystik wrote:
Yall take your argument to PM or something. The need to get the last word in is exhausting and there's nothing really to contribute till the lens is in hand.
Anyway lens shipping in US this week right? I'm torn on it but still have my pre order. The MKI has been such a critical part of my photography for the past 5 years that I have to try it myself but also the bar is set pretty high in terms of rendering. But if the lens is great the FOMO will hit hard if this guy is sold out for fall photo season...Show more →
Agreed. Let's wait til people have the lens in hand and see how it performs. I also agree that the MK I has a quite beautiful rendering and is a high bar to match in that regard.
p.16 #10 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
So much debate on this lens's AF, yet someone posts their experience actually using it and it's like it was never posted. Too low post count to, count?
p.16 #12 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
That makes me want to buy it as Version 1 I had past issues with AF. Now given the A7RV and A7CR and A7Cii have the same AF system as the A9III it should act the same.
Honestly I think the bigger issue this comes down too is the character between the 2 lenses more than anything else . From what I seen from Mark Galer images and Patricks Racey shots with the dancers Im all over it. The character to me looks quite good and more important the center sharpness looks really good and adds a 3D look to the images.. Now the big question for all of us is finding 1800 bucks. ROTFLMAO
Look I have been a working Pro for over 50 years and a Sony shooter since the A7R and honestly the lenses they have been pouring out in Version II packages in the lineup are really amazing in IQ. The 70-200 Version II I see a tremendous increase in sharpness and mechanical ability to it. I have no doubt this one will be killer good. Thats not fanboy talk I have tested hundreds of lenses and this looks dynamite
p.16 #14 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
The nice thing with Sony is they don't discontinue the older lenses even after the new version comes out (correct me if I'm wrong). This gives the consumer a choice. The trend I'm noticing with Sony is, yes, the technology has advanced, but their design also centers around the utility of a lens.
All the new lenses have the XD linear motors, many of the GM features have carried over to the G line (like aperture ring, switches, etc.), and size/weight reduction, sharpness is better than ever, etc. With the 70-200 F4 Macro, well, you get all of that plus x0.5 magnification.
The 85 GM II is no exception. While you may or may not lose out on "character," there is no doubt that the specs show that it will work with the entire lineup of cameras much better than the Mk I. For example, no one would think to shoot sports with the Mk I on a A9III or A1...or any camera. I'm also in the camp that I'd much rather have a clinically sharp lens with as little flaws as possible so that I can have more latitude on where to take it in post processing.
For folks complaining about the price, well, you can voice your complaints by not buying it. Over time, we'll start to see plenty of 85 GM II on the B&S forum for probably 2/3 of the MSRP, so more people will be able to access it and try it out.
Which begs the question, why does there need to be naysayers about a lens that the majority of people don't even have in their hands yet? Oh, because it's the internet.
p.16 #18 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
I was just providing those videos to show that there is one focusing group in the 85 II and 2 focusing groups in the 135. So Sony appears to have 2 motors per focusing groups in these lenses. The number of focusing groups is part of the lens design. Maybe that's more important than the # of motors.
At the end of the day, we'll get more and more people using these lenses across multiple bodies. And see how actual performance plays out and if it matches the initial feedback posted here.
Apparently we'll have to wait for an 1.2 lens to feature a quad XD
The 85II is basically a budget GM lens similar to the 50/1.4GM.
@desecrate99@ amazing images. I wish owls in TN would allow to photograph them with a 85mm lens
An $1,800 budget GM? Doesn't seem likely as the price isn't a budget lens. The 35 f/1.4 GM also has only two motors and the 300 f/2.8 GM has only two motors. IMO, Sony does a good job of keeping the focussing group or groups small for GM lenses and whether they have 2 or 4 motors is about whether they have one or two focussing groups. The number of motors is not what is important, what is important is the size and power of the motor(s) relative to the focussing group(s).
Hence Tim's comment that the focussing group does not appear to be substantial is important. Two good XD motors for one relatively small focusing group should work pretty well as far as I can tell, but of course we will have to wait for actual experience with the lens in a number of situations to know if that reasoning holds up.
I am interested where this new lens falls compared to other GM lenses. It might not be as fast as some, but it might be. For example, we now have seen conflicting reports about whether it is as fast as the 135 GM. Again, I am sure time and a lot more examples in a lot more situations will help us sort that out.
p.16 #20 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
tsdevine wrote:
I was just providing those videos to show that there is one focusing group in the 85 II and 2 focusing groups in the 135. So Sony appears to have 2 motors per focusing groups in these lenses. The number of focusing groups is part of the lens design. Maybe that's more important than the # of motors.
At the end of the day, we'll get more and more people using these lenses across multiple bodies. And see how actual performance plays out and if it matches the initial feedback posted here.
I got it, but it's just the same link copied twice. I clicked the second link, and I thought I may need glasses because the lens looked exactly like the 85II, and it was the 85II lol
That's why I posted a corrected link. FM kills the time part for no reason so I had to wrap the links into bitly.
Steve Spencer wrote:
An $1,800 budget GM? Doesn't seem likely as the price isn't a budget lens. The 35 f/1.4 GM also has only two motors and the 300 f/2.8 GM has only two motors. IMO, Sony does a good job of keeping the focussing group or groups small for GM lenses and whether they have 2 or 4 motors is about whether they have one or two focussing groups. The number of motors is not what is important, what is important is the size and power of the motor(s) relative to the focussing group(s).
Hence Tim's comment that the focussing group does not appear to be substantial is important. Two good XD motors for one relatively small focusing group should work pretty well as far as I can tell, but of course we will have to wait for actual experience with the lens in a number of situations to know if that reasoning holds up.
It's a great price for a 1.4 lens, but 1.2 would cost ~$1k more. I don't remember exact numbers, but I paid something like $2600-2700 for the RF85/1.2 and +$300 more for the DS version. Nikon would charge about the same for their 85/1.2Z.
, reinforcing my point.
