p.13 #1 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
Dj R wrote:
I have only heard AMAZING things about the new 85 GMII with regard to how lightning fast the AF works. I hear it's similar to a 135 GM, but perhaps a bit faster.
Sounds like a wonderful 85 that can double for both sport and portrait.
I've been lucky enough to shoot all the wonderful OEM 85mm primes and the 58/105 from nikon.
The Canon 85 1.2 ef, the 1.2 rf. The Sony 1.4GM. The Nikon 85 1.4g, the 58 1.4g, 105 1.4e
They are either not great for sport, or very heavy. You can't have everything right?
Wrong.
The 85 GMII looks to be exactly what I wished for.
A lens with nice rendering/color/sharpness.
Great for portrait/wedding, that is what an 85 is known for right?
But the intangibles are what sets them apart.
With this new GMII, for an OEM 1.2 or 1.4, I can't think of one that had all three of the below.
1. Superior AF ability (so I can shoot indoor tennis, one of my bread and butter gigs)
2. Size/Weight factor (12 hour wedding days, I have always wanted a 35/85 1.4 combo that are each < 650 grams)
3. Features, AF buttons on the lens, this seems silly, but I LOVE it for sport and for long wedding days.
I'm excited.
I prefer OEM b/c it's future proof (with regard to firmware updates from Sony).
I really use the AF tech. ...Show more →
I think most people complaining (including me) is because GM II looks like a better 85DN and doesn't really render like GM I ...
I thought I could replace my Sigma with GM II, but I see I'll have to try GM I to see if I can appreciate its rendering as much as people around here .
p.13 #2 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
Of course, it could be that the GM II only comes into its own with a new Sony body (A9 III). But it's still strange that the A7 IV works so well with the Sigma 85 DN and the GM II performs similarly well and perhaps even sometimes worse, but also sometimes worse. In any case, the GM II doesn't really stand out.
I also had the GM I back then, and I also got very sharp photos of the children with the A7 III - no question. I had already considered whether I should buy the GM I because of the great look, now that the GM II hasn't completely convinced me.
I'm looking forward to further experience reports, possibly with an A9 III and 85 GM II and even GM I and 85 DN.
In any case, I'll stick with the Sigma 85 DN for the time being. The GM II went back to the dealer today. And I'll put the EUR 1,400 I saved (surcharge) to one side....
Sep 17, 2024 at 03:47 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.13 #3 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
j4nu wrote:
Yes, you are right, but the Sigma focuses on the eye just fine in this case so it shouldn't be the matter of the camera here.
I'm sure that A7RV will recognize the face faster due to AI and A9III will track better due to faster sensor read out, but come on - A7IV should be perfectly capable of capturing kids doing their stuff...
I also expected GM II to be excellent when it comes to AF and I am surprised reading this report...
Also, these are 2 different things:
* eye(lash)AF in static scenes shooting from an angle, etc. - this is mostly the luck of the draw in my experience
* eyeAF in dynamic scenes (esp. close rapid movement towards the camera) - this is where both the camera and the AF motors in the lens play a big role (and where 85DN struggles)......Show more →
I also read Don's comments differently. I saw him saying the new 85 GM II wasn't better at capturing kid's eyes than the Sigma DG DN and both struggled. If anything the Sigma "might" have been better, but it "might" have been luck of the draw. That sounds to me exactly what I would expect if the AF performance was limited by the camera rather than the lens, and it fits with other reports that the new 85 GM II is clearly better than the Sigma DG DN with a top level camera like the A9 III.
I think we need to await more systematic tests and that is hard with AF, but over time I still expect that at least when you really push the AF system the new 85 GM II with its 4 super fast motors moving two different groups (as I understand it) is really going to provide outstanding AF. I say that as someone who isn't going to buy the lens and who recently picked up an 85 GM I. I will be very surprised if exceptional AF isn't one of the clear advantages of the GM II over both the first version and the Sigma DG DN. One things we know for sure, both the first version of the GM and the Sigma are going to be a lot more limited in frames per second than the new lens and that will matter for some, but obviously only those who have cameras that can take advantage of that ability for higher frames per second (i.e., it won't matter on an A7 IV or A7r V that can only do 10 fps). I think we will find a similar things for general AF performance as well. The better AF will be a much better benefit on newer cameras with more advanced AF performance.
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p.13 #5 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
j4nu wrote:
Yes, I also had the same expectations regarding AF.
... but if you need A9III to make use of it in a non-extreme scenarios like kids running around the playground, I can't say it's what I expected...
But that is just the point: there is zero evidence you need an A9 III, just evidence that an A7 IV might not be enough. An A9 III seems to be enough, but I think it is likely that all the cameras that Guy mentioned here (https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1871097/11#16643573) will be more than enough to get the benefits of the better AF from this new 85 GM II and I won't change my expectations until I see evidence that those cameras don't gain much by using the lens.
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p.13 #7 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
j4nu wrote:
Well, my point is that A7IV should be enough for that scenario...
It's also possible it was a defective copy, due to that audible AF sound which I think no reviewer has mentioned...
And that's where you and I differ. I am not bothered if it turns out that some of the AF advantage of the new version requires a more advanced camera to fully utilize those advantages. Obviously the number of frames per second this lens is capable of shooting is only going to be relevant for some cameras and not others. The 85 GM II is certainly capable of shooting at many more frames per second than the Sigma 85 DG DN, but you are not going to see that on an A7 IV, and I wouldn't say that isn't the way it is supposed to be. You will see that difference in capability on any A9 series camera, and the A1, but in this case you won't see it on the A7r V either.
In a similar way I would not be surprised if some of the other speed related aspects of AF are only going to be relevant for some cameras and not others. I expect that some of the AF advantages of this new lens will require a camera with more AF capabilities and even the A9 III might not be able to take full advantage of everything this lens can do speed wise. That might await future cameras and that would not be a deficiency of the lens.
p.13 #9 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
Exactly, with the A9 III and the 85 GM II you should get a very fast combination, especially the sports photographers.
Still, with an A7 IV and older you can get very nice pictures (of children and moving subjects) with Sigma 85 DN in continuous mode (10 frames/second). I never thought because of the AF of the Sigma 85 DN I would have to replace it with another lens because the AF is too slow.
Sep 18, 2024 at 05:52 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.13 #10 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
j4nu wrote:
I think the point I wanted to get across is that the biggest difference between the DN and GM II seemed to be AF accuracy in action. That is why I'd get GM II over DN, even if I had to pay for that with 1cm longer lens (and a lot more $$$ of course).
Now, if you need (for a lens that doubles as a portrait lens) A9III or A1 (I intentionally don't include A7RV/ACR here as these have slower readout speeds than A7IV and AI helps in subjects recognition, which wasn't the problem in this scenario) to see any improvement in that area in a not-that-demanding scenario (no BIFs, etc.), then a lot of people are going to think twice about such "upgrade"......Show more →
I don't know. I would expect that almost anyone who wants the lens for increased AF accuracy in action is already going to have a camera that can handle fast action (an A9 series or A1 camera) and would be unlikely to have an A7 IV, and of course almost nobody would plan to use an 85mm lens for BIF, but more demanding situations like sports photographers, or perhaps in very low light like wedding photographers shooting dancers at a wedding reception, we might expect the AF advantages of this lens to emerge. I wouldn't expect them shootings kids outdoors at a park. Sure the extra fps of something like an A9 III or even an A1 might allow some differences to emerge, but even AI isn't going to help all that much as I doubt we will be getting a seesaw AF mode any time soon
I would also agree with Don that the Sigma 85 DN does really well for AF accuracy for the types of things he was shooting, so expecting better probably doesn't make much sense, IMO. If you are going to spend the substantial money this lens costs, then it makes sense that you plan to use the lens in a way that requires its capabilities. I think that for what Don described as his shooting, the lens isn't going to get him much advantage over the Sigma. I don't think I would use the lens in a way that takes advantage of its capabilities either. That's why I am not getting the lens. I would use the lens primarily for portraits and for that I don't need what the GM II provides and I actually prefer the GM I. If I shot much sports, however, or if I shot landscapes (where the edge to edge sharpness of this lens might matter), or even if I shot weddings or events I would be really interested in this lens. I think you see those varied interests reflect the different enthusiasm for this lens and that is how it should be.
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p.13 #15 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
j4nu wrote:
Well, try shooting wide open a kid running (or swinging) towards you not too far away and you'll see there's plenty to be improved in the Sigma . This is really not a complicated motion but somehow Sigma's AF can't keep up with properly updating the distance...
Ok, I see others don't like this discussion so I'm stopping on my part at least .
I will stop here too and just say I agree that such shots are not a complicated motion, and I have had no trouble with them with the Sigma 85 DN or the 85 GM I and the A9 (first version) I used to have or with my A7r V. Once upon a time I didn't even have trouble with such shots using manual focus. Although I could imagine any system missing a couple in such situations I would expect that a short burst to produce at least a couple of nice shots (as Don reported he finds with the Sigma 85 DN and the A7 IV) with just about any system. I don't consider such a situation a strenuous test of AF at all.
p.13 #16 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
Steve Spencer wrote:
I will stop here too and just say I agree that such shots are not a complicated motion, and I have had no trouble with them with the Sigma 85 DN or the 85 GM I and the A9 (first version) I used to have or with my A7r V. Once upon a time I didn't even have trouble with such shots using manual focus. Although I could imagine any system missing a couple in such situations I would expect that a short burst to produce at least a couple of nice shots (as Don reported he finds with the Sigma 85 DN and the A7 IV) with just about any system. I don't consider such a situation a strenuous test of AF at all....Show more →
Well, if you don't consider rapid close (at least not far) movement towards the camera with [email protected] strenous for AF then this whole discussion was a waste of time and space.
And to be clear if you get 50% shots in (eye) focus in burst in such a situation, it means there's a lot to be improved...
I'll delete my posts.
p.13 #17 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
Not sure of the debate here but we do need to remember this is a 85 1.4 which leads to heavier glass to move fast. It's not going to act like a 35mm as it's pushing bigger and more elements around . I think it should work really well in practice but again I go back to having a newer body with the better AF system in place. Im going to rent it when I can. I miss not having a 85mm in my bag. I have a perfect kit for this to fit into
Sep 18, 2024 at 09:51 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.13 #18 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
j4nu wrote:
Well, if you don't consider rapid close (at least not far) movement towards the camera with [email protected] strenous for AF then this whole discussion was a waste of time and space.
And to be clear if you get 50% shots in (eye) focus in burst in such a situation, it means there's a lot to be improved...
I'll delete my posts.
No, I don't think that sort of shot is difficult and people asked for pictures so I will provide some to make my point.
The first shot below was shot with the Loxia 85 f/2.4 on an A7r II. The key to making this shot work was prefocussing and timing the shot so that I took it when he came into the zone of focussing. My son was playing on a piece of playground equipment and literally swinging from upright to upside down when I took this shot. It was shot wide open, but of course an f/2.4 aperture isn't that shallow of depth of field.
This next shot was when my son was a bit older and was practicing karate at a park. It was a complicated series of moves that would normally be with a bow (sp?, like a staff used in karate). He was in constant movement but the movement was predictable because he was following a fixed pattern. This one was shot with the CV 65 f/2 APO Macro at f/2. Again not a super shallow but fairly shallow depth of field. I was shooting the lens on a Nikon Z7 with a dumb adapter, so the shooting info is not included in the EXIF data, but I am pretty sure I shot it at f/2.
The next shot my son was literally swinging on a rope when I took this shot, which incidentally is one of my favorites of him. I shot it with a Leica M10 and a 50 lux Asph wide open at f/1.4. The focus isn't quite perfect, but it is close and close enough that I can print this pretty big and it looks nice.
All of these are manual focus, so why did I post them? What does AF have to do with these shots? I would argue that in these situations, AF although not necessary would have been nice. It would have allowed a nice burst and maintained focus during that burst. At the same time with the technique I was using here (prefocussing and timing the shot carefully) you are not taxing the AF system much at all. Still I think AF is useful as it gives you a wider window on the timing as it can adjust very fast and it can be more exact. What I don't think AF should try to be is a replacement for the sort of technique when you try to get focus as close as you can before you activate AF and time the shot carefully. That is asking a lot of any AF system and why do that when a simple change in technique can ask a lot less of the system?
ILCE-7RM2ZEISS Loxia 2.4/85 lens85mmf/2.41/1250s100 ISO0.0 EV
NIKON Z 71/320s800 ISO0.0 EV
LEICA M10Summilux-M 1:1.4/50 ASPH. lens50mmf/2.01/350s200 ISO0.0 EV
p.13 #19 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
GMPhotography wrote:
Not sure of the debate here but we do need to remember this is a 85 1.4 which leads to heavier glass to move fast. It's not going to act like a 35mm as it's pushing bigger and more elements around . I think it should work really well in practice but again I go back to having a newer body with the better AF system in place. Im going to rent it when I can. I miss not having a 85mm in my bag. I have a perfect kit for this to fit into
Yep. People probably need to manage their expectations for AF with this lens because it's a fast aperture 85. I haven't used one that had great AF.
p.13 #20 · Sony 85mm f/1.4 GM II Announced—Pre-Orders Now Open!
Mystik wrote:
Yep. People probably need to manage their expectations for AF with this lens because it's a fast aperture 85. I haven't used one that had great AF.
Not to be too picky, but doesn't 135/1.8 have to move even more glass?
.
?
. This is really not a complicated motion but somehow Sigma's AF can't keep up with properly updating the distance...
