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Archive 2024 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?

  
 
GHarris
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p.2 #1 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?


lsquare wrote:
If I use an APS-C lens on a Sony FF body, I'm assuming vignette and corner sharpness of the APS-C lenses are mitigated by the larger sensor? Focal length in APS-C mode on an FF body is the same as if the lens was on an APS-C body?


Vignette and corner sharpness comes from the lens. When you use an APS-C lens on a FF body, you can either shoot in APS-C mode - in which case it will produce identical images to if you had shot on an APS-C body, vignetting and all (because you're just using the middle part of the sensor, an APS-C crop)... or you can tell the camera to try to shoot in full frame, and you will mostly get bad results. The outer parts of the frame, that the APS-C lens was not designed to cover, will be anywhere from badly to completely vignetted (blacked out) and there will be other image quality defects.

There are some rare exceptions to this. Some APS-C zoom lenses don't vignette too extremely, in part of their zoom range, when shot on FF. But it's always a compromise and still has its flaws. The image quality results with a full frame lens end up being better.

So the only really practical reason to use an APS-C lens on a full-frame body is to shoot it in APS-C crop mode, to make your total weight and size of your camera rig smaller (than it would have been with a full frame lens attached instead), while wasting the extra image quality a full frame image would have provided you. Sometimes that's a valid trade-off. It's never "better", as such.

What you were thinking of - "won't vignetting and corner sharpness be better?" - works in the opposite direction. In general, if you use a full frame lens on an APS-C body, it will have less vignetting and better "corner" sharpness (because the corner is, really, only the midframe of the lens. And the only exception to this rule is the few lenses that have a "midframe dip", because then that midframe becomes the corner).

----

The thing is, nowadays, there genuinely are small, cheap and good full frame lenses available, such that APS-C lenses are not even necessarily cheaper. As well as full-frame bodies (the A7C) that are about as small as APS-C bodies. So there are fewer and fewer reasons to choose APS-C... except for the cost of the camera body, alone. That's where there is a significant difference. Cost of the body.

Even there, you have options: a second-hand full frame body may give you better final image quality than a new APS-C body, and the used market options are extensive and cover many budgets. A budget full-frame used body will have fewer features, less speed and convenience, than a newest-model APS-C body of a similar price... so the tradeoff is about whether you need fast performance or whether you can be patient and slower about your shooting in return for a higher-quality final result. In some niches, such as sports or action shooting, fast performance and fast focus is everything, so if your budget is constrained you're forced into APS-C (which will never quite be perfect, and you'll wish you had a full-frame new model body instead with even more autofocus speed and image quality, but you'll have to make do). In other areas, such as landscape photography or posed portraiture, a slow camera body may work just fine and you may be happier with a second-hand full frame body which will provide better image quality than any APS-C camera ever will.

Edited on Aug 25, 2024 at 05:20 AM · View previous versions



Aug 25, 2024 at 05:09 AM
lsquare
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p.2 #2 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?


Assuming Sony made Fujifilm's 40 MP BSI and 26 MP stacked sensors, it would be a shame if Sony's next APS-C cameras won't use them. Fujifilm lags behind Sony in AF. Those sensors need to be paired with state of the art AF sensors and algorithms!

Edited on Aug 25, 2024 at 05:45 AM · View previous versions



Aug 25, 2024 at 05:18 AM
GHarris
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p.2 #3 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?


lsquare wrote:
Assuming Sony made Fujifilm's 40 MP BSI and 26 MP stacked sensors, it would be ashame if Sony's next APS-C cameras won't use them. Fujifilm lags behind Sony in AF. Those sensors need to be paired with state of the art AF sensors and algorithms!


From where we are today, trying to squeeze more resolution out of the same sensor size is like trying to squeeze the last drop of water out of an increasingly dry rag. We're close to practical resolution limits for any given sensor size. Around 26mp is already most of what an APS-C sensor can practically resolve, in real life. 40 doesn't add all that terribly much. Real resolution increases are only substantively and transformatively available by increasing the size of the sensor beyond APS-C. If you try to do it by cramming ever more and ever smaller pixels into the same sensor area, you just end up with more digital noise and grain and with ever more limited and situation-specific cases where the resolution actually 'exists' (perfect lighting, lower and lower ISO, and only very specific, ever shrinking sweet-spot focal ratios, because at higher focal ratios diffraction just blurs it out)

The 26mp sensor in the latest Sony APS-C bodies is more or less the same sensor as the 61mp sensor in the A7R5 (just chopped to a smaller size. Same pixel density/size). Which is more or less the same sensor as the 100mp Fuji GFX medium-format cameras use. All of them are squeezing that almost-dry rag of resolution at a given sensor size about as hard as is sensible, in my opinion. More megapixels at the same sensor size provides increasingly tiny benefit.

---

I know you're also referring to the readout speed and thus autofocus capability and rolling-shutter resistance. To the 26mp sensors that are stacked. OK. But they cost more. And therefore there is overlap between those, and a stacked full-frame sensor - either a high-end one like the A1... or a low-end one, like a more affordably-priced used a9, that you use with any of the many affordable full-frame lenses out there. It might not be so unfair to argue that the biggest reason Fuji makes a stacked APS-C sensor is because they just don't make any full frame bodies - if they did, their stacked sensor might well be in that part of the market, too.



Aug 25, 2024 at 05:44 AM
lsquare
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p.2 #4 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?




GHarris wrote:
From where we are today, trying to squeeze more resolution out of the same sensor size is like trying to squeeze the last drop of water out of an increasingly dry rag. We're close to practical resolution limits for any given sensor size. Around 26mp is already most of what an APS-C sensor can practically resolve, in real life. 40 doesn't add all that terribly much. Real resolution increases are only substantively and transformatively available by increasing the size of the sensor beyond APS-C. If you try to do it by cramming ever more and ever smaller pixels into the
...Show more

Hey G, are you sure the 26 MP APS-C sensor is more or less the same as the a7R V sensor, but cut down? Are the pixel sizes the same? Isn't the sensor read speed faster than the a7R V sensor?



Aug 25, 2024 at 05:52 AM
Alan Parker
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p.2 #5 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?


lsquare wrote:
Assuming Sony made Fujifilm's 40 MP BSI and 26 MP stacked sensors, it would be a shame if Sony's next APS-C cameras won't use them. Fujifilm lags behind Sony in AF. Those sensors need to be paired with state of the art AF sensors and algorithms!


Agreed! I personally don't have a need for them but as a brand it doesn't make sense that Sony isn't using their own tech to build quality cameras in every segment they provide sensors for.
Something like an A7000 or A7000R seems like a very logical product to me.



Aug 25, 2024 at 06:07 AM
GHarris
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p.2 #6 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?


lsquare wrote:
Hey G, are you sure the 26 MP APS-C sensor is more or less the same as the a7R V sensor, but cut down? Are the pixel sizes the same? Isn't the sensor read speed faster than the a7R V sensor?


Yes, it is more or less the same as the A7RV sensor, but cut down. The pixel sizes are identical - just under 3.8µm. The difference in megapixel count between the 26MP a6700 and the 61MP A7RV is an indicator of how big a step up full frame is over APS-C, because all else really is equal here.

The reason for the difference in readout speeds... is the size of the sensor and the quantity of the data. There is more work to do, reading out 61MP than reading out 26MP.



Aug 25, 2024 at 06:09 AM
Newenglandrocks
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p.2 #7 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?


I think there are two situations where I'd want a flagship APS-C body.

1: travel - smaller body and smaller lenses.

2: shooting sports and wildlife. "Free reach" with whatever white lens suits your fancy.

Taking a look at #1, Sony has this covered with the A7Cii and A7CR + 1st and 3rd party small lenses. I'm not sure you need a "flagship" for this. I have never used an A6700, but based on what I've read and my experience with the A7RV, I suspect the A6700 is a great APS-C travel camera.

Taking a look at #2, this is a niche case and would (probably) not be profitable. You can just shoot the A1 in crop mode.

So nope - I don't think Sony should do it from a business standpoint.



Aug 25, 2024 at 06:50 AM
lsquare
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p.2 #8 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?




Alan Parker wrote:
Agreed! I personally don't have a need for them but as a brand it doesn't make sense that Sony isn't using their own tech to build quality cameras in every segment they provide sensors for.
Something like an A7000 or A7000R seems like a very logical product to me.


The lenses are already there. Sony just needs to make the camera, but I suspect the a6700's successor probably won't appear until 2026 at the earliest. Sony doesn't seem all that interested in APS-C. FF is clearly where Sony is invested in.



Aug 25, 2024 at 06:52 AM
Choderboy
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p.2 #9 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?


There is no benefit in wishing for a custom, made to your specific wants camera.
Cameras are available from several manufacturers ranging from huge and expensive to small and cheap and everywhere in between.
There is a benefit in analysing what is available, both new and used, enabling an informed choice.
Obviously, available lenses need to be considered too.

For several years Sony has been the brand offering the largest lens choice, but while I don't think Nikon has caught up, they are closing the gap. Particularly if you don't have unlimited budget.



Aug 25, 2024 at 07:22 AM
schlotz
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p.2 #10 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?


chez wrote:
Sony’s apsc system is their low cost high volume system. I don’t see them enhancing that system with a higher priced camera to compete with their full frame market.


Exactly. One has to view this question from a business perspective and in doing so it immediately runs into the business's marketing approach where they don't want to degrade their tier strategy. Short answer: not happening.



Aug 25, 2024 at 07:31 AM
jojib
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p.2 #11 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?


For sure, if Sony comes out with an APS-C camera with option to add an OEM battery grip and either stacked or partially stacked sensor I'll get one. Having said that I love my A6700 and with today's software i.e. the excellent lens blur filter in Adobe Photoshop and it's noise reduction feature (along with competitors DXO PL 7 Elite and Topaz AI), I've already bought my last FF camera in the R6MKII.


Aug 25, 2024 at 09:05 AM
davev
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p.2 #12 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?


I like that everyone wants Sony to build a flagship crop camera using 10 year old tech.
The eyepiece to the left has been around forever. I think my FD-88 had that, I know my 717 did,
I'm looking at it on the shelf. That design has never been ideal for using larger lenses.

Take an a9III, remove the 24mp full frame sensor, and insert a 24mp global crop sensor.
I would think the throughput would be the same, and the handling way better.

It wouldn't be cheap, probably $4000 (or more), but I'd bet every person on this board that takes photos
of wildlife, sports, airshows, or their kids sports would buy one. It'd be the one camera I'd pre order.



Aug 25, 2024 at 09:13 AM
tschopp
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p.2 #13 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?




schlotz wrote:
Exactly. One has to view this question from a business perspective and in doing so it immediately runs into the business's marketing approach where they don't want to degrade their tier strategy. Short answer: not happening.


If Sony was the only camera company it would make business sense not to do it. But Sony is just one of several companies. For years Canon had various levels of aps-c that served as an entry point into the EOS mount. This included the EOS 7D for the high end sports and wildlife aps-c. Today canon has the R7, 32 mp and 30fps. Canon lags Sony in sensor tech, so the Canon R7 is not stacked yet. The real focus should not be if an aps-c camera is going to take some a1 market. It should be does Sony have an answer to the R7, that answer is not a1 or a9. Is Canon going to eat Sony’s lunch in the low end due to refusal to compete. The people buying an R7 were never the market for an a1, but Sony should offer some competition to the R7.



Aug 25, 2024 at 01:18 PM
Newenglandrocks
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p.2 #14 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?


davev wrote:
I like that everyone wants Sony to build a flagship crop camera using 10 year old tech.
The eyepiece to the left has been around forever. I think my FD-88 had that, I know my 717 did,
I'm looking at it on the shelf. That design has never been ideal for using larger lenses.

Take an a9III, remove the 24mp full frame sensor, and insert a 24mp global crop sensor.
I would think the throughput would be the same, and the handling way better.

It wouldn't be cheap, probably $4000 (or more), but I'd bet every person on this board that takes photos
of wildlife, sports,
...Show more

I agree with you on all points, but us and the people who would buy this that are not on FM are just not big enough of a market for Sony to pursue. I would be absolutely shocked if Sony hasn't done the business analysis that essentially concludes it isn't worth the effort.



Aug 25, 2024 at 03:47 PM
ytwong
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p.2 #15 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?



davev wrote:
Take an a9III, remove the 24mp full frame sensor, and insert a 24mp global crop sensor.
I would think the throughput would be the same, and the handling way better.

It wouldn't be cheap, probably $4000 (or more), but I'd bet every person on this board that takes photos
of wildlife, sports, airshows, or their kids sports would buy one. It'd be the one camera I'd pre order.


This APSC version of A9 III is the only one that makes sense for a flagship APSC camera.

I have an older A6500 and A7RV, A7RV is much better crop cam than A6500 except size. I suppose A6700 is fairly similar to A7RV but without dual card slot. Many people really want dual card slot for a "flag ship" body but that wouldn't be possible with that tiny body.

Unless 8K video is the goal, I don't really see the need for that many pixels (more than 26mp in A6700 or A7RV crop mode) in a crop sensor, but if video is the main focus, that means fast read out speed / stacked sensor/ global shutter, and small size is not good for heat dissipation.

For low budget , landscape , portable.... even older gen crop cam works very well. A premium crop camera kind of overlap with A7C series. One can also choose older gen A7R, my A7RII still great for landscape, ok for posed portraiture. A7RIII is a little better... they are often still available new at discounted price (maybe depends on country). That's why I'd say if Sony really need to release a flagship APSC camera, that should be a A9 III or at least A1 caliber.







Aug 25, 2024 at 04:18 PM
liggy
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p.2 #16 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?


I’d seriously consider a stacked sensor baby flagship A1 in aps-c but honestly am fine with just shooting the A1 in crop mode or even A7RV for things that don’t demand speed in crop mode.

I’d be more likely to keep my powder dry until the A1 II comes out and springing for that instead.

With any Sony I’d want to use my GM glass so that negates the small/light advantage of a crop body.



Aug 25, 2024 at 04:30 PM
lsquare
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p.2 #17 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?




Choderboy wrote:
There is no benefit in wishing for a custom, made to your specific wants camera.
Cameras are available from several manufacturers ranging from huge and expensive to small and cheap and everywhere in between.
There is a benefit in analysing what is available, both new and used, enabling an informed choice.
Obviously, available lenses need to be considered too.

For several years Sony has been the brand offering the largest lens choice, but while I don't think Nikon has caught up, they are closing the gap. Particularly if you don't have unlimited budget.


It doesn't have to be custom. Eventually, there has to be a successor to the a6700, right? It's highly likely that Fujifilm got its sensor from Sony. Just use either the 40 MP or the 26 MP stacked sensor in the next flagship APS-C camera.



Aug 25, 2024 at 05:42 PM
lsquare
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p.2 #18 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?




davev wrote:
I like that everyone wants Sony to build a flagship crop camera using 10 year old tech.
The eyepiece to the left has been around forever. I think my FD-88 had that, I know my 717 did,
I'm looking at it on the shelf. That design has never been ideal for using larger lenses.

Take an a9III, remove the 24mp full frame sensor, and insert a 24mp global crop sensor.
I would think the throughput would be the same, and the handling way better.

It wouldn't be cheap, probably $4000 (or more), but I'd bet every person on this board that takes photos
of wildlife, sports,
...Show more

A global shutter APS-C camera would be a fantastic camera! Brilliant idea! Sony just has to make it!



Aug 25, 2024 at 05:44 PM
lsquare
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p.2 #19 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?




tschopp wrote:
If Sony was the only camera company it would make business sense not to do it. But Sony is just one of several companies. For years Canon had various levels of aps-c that served as an entry point into the EOS mount. This included the EOS 7D for the high end sports and wildlife aps-c. Today canon has the R7, 32 mp and 30fps. Canon lags Sony in sensor tech, so the Canon R7 is not stacked yet. The real focus should not be if an aps-c camera is going to take some a1 market. It should be does Sony
...Show more

Sony doesn't really have a viable competitor when it comes to sensor technology. Samsung and Omnivision are the other company competitors that I can think of, but I think they only focus on smartphones. It doesn't seem like Canon will ever close the gap with Sony.



Aug 25, 2024 at 05:50 PM
tschopp
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p.2 #20 · Do you feel Sony should have a better flagship APS-C camera?




lsquare wrote:
Sony doesn't really have a viable competitor when it comes to sensor technology. Samsung and Omnivision are the other company competitors that I can think of, but I think they only focus on smartphones. It doesn't seem like Canon will ever close the gap with Sony.


I agree Sony is in the lead with sensors. Canon is still a viable competitor even with a sensor deficiency. The R5 and R6 are capable cameras. I also understand that Sony will sell sensors to camera competitors. There is some independence between the camera division and the sensor division.

I can see a market for a decent affordable sports camera for parents. I have FF glass and I like high resolution, so I’m more towards an a1. But as Sony transitions to all linear motors in the lenses, the glass has the focus speed for sports.



Aug 25, 2024 at 06:22 PM
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