p.1 #1 · Best Used Leica-M models & Must-Have Lenses
I've always wanted a Leica-M, but after a heroing medical experience, I decided "life is short!" I was wondering what used Leica-M digital cameras would be a good buy and reasonably trouble-free? I know that some models had a sensor problem w/oxidation, so I want to avoid those models altogether. Also, I heard that one M model had a Kodak sensor and produced very rich colors, but I'm not sure which one had the Kodak sensor, and do I want a Leica or a Kodak? Were those cameras producing better photos than the ones w/a Leica sensor?
Second, What would be 2-3 must-have lenses for the M? I have 3 Leica-R lenses: (28mm Elmarit E-55, Summicron 90mm, and a Summicron 50mm from ~1966). However, I keep reading that "R" lenses weren't as good as the 'M" lenses? I know I can get a lens adapter, but given the above, what Leica M PRIME lenses would fit my needs, mostly for scenic panoramas, some people, street (my guess is mostly wide-angle)? I can probably use one of the R lenses to fill any gaps. I'm also okay w/good or great non-Leica M lenses, such as Voigtlander or Zeiss.
Thanks!
p.1 #2 · Best Used Leica-M models & Must-Have Lenses
The Leica M9 had supposedly a Kodak CCD sensor which unfortunately suffered from corrosion issues on the sensor surface after a short time. Leica replaced for free corrosion based M9 sensors but has stopped this program a few years ago since this sensor is no longer made. Many collectors like the vibrant colors coming from this sensor, but RedDotForum has a nice side-by-side comparison between M9 and successor M 240 based cameras with CMOS sensor showing that the M 240 can obtain the same vibrant colors with bit of post processing of the RAW image. IMO there is no technical advantage to go with the M9 over a newer digital M model. If still deciding to go with a M9 make sure that the sensor was replaced with a corrosion-free one and get proof about this from the seller.
The best price/quality ratio in used digital M cameras is currently provided by the M 240 series cameras. Some like the M-P and the M-E 240 have the same buffer size as the M10 successor model - 2 GB (standard M 240 ones only have 1 GB affecting the camera picture taking speed). The cameras have 24 MP full-frame resolution.
For a higher price with same 24 MP resolution the M10 series is highly regarded. The M10-R falls into the same M10 series ballpark but has actually a very different sensor than in the M10: higher resolution with about 40 MP and more dynamic range at higher ISO. If money is not an issue, I would go with a M10-R at this point since it is one of the best performing and reliable digital M's out there now. Just the price tag is still quite high likely due to unbroken demand for it.
Reason why the M10-R remains so successful is that the M11 came with a bunch of issues. Some were fixed with firmware upgrades but others like camera freezing issues seem to be a gamble with the M11 to get a good copy avoiding it or a bad one. The electronic shutter in the M11 is another point of discussions.
Regarding lenses, you can mount with adapter R lenses on M cameras but you loose focusing capabilities with the rangefinder. R-lenses have no rangefinder coupling on the lens to allow this. You have to use external EVF or LiveView to accomplish focusing with R-lenses (if not just zone focusing by estimating). R-lenses are optically as good as the similar M lenses manufactured at the time, but R-lenses are more bulky SLR type ones and as mentioned not made to work with rangefinder M camera focusing.
p.1 #3 · Best Used Leica-M models & Must-Have Lenses
If you use anything but an M lens you end having to use live view or the EVF. Save yourself the cost and buy any other mirrorless camera then.
If you want a cheap (what a word in the world of Leica!) and easy entry into digital M, get yourself a M240, it is a modern camera (ie capable sensor, responsive, excellent battery) and pick a Voigtlander lens for a fraction of what Leica lenses cost for no less performance (really).
Get one lens, maybe two most. Then spend a few months learning how to use a rangefinder and deciding if you actually like it or not. It is not for everyone and that's not a judgement or criticism.
I'd start with a M240 and a Voigtlander 35/1.4 v2. I'd shoot it at 2.8 or slower to begin with, then work my way to F/2 and f/1.4.
p.1 #4 · Best Used Leica-M models & Must-Have Lenses
M240 is the best buy. Mine was rock solid. Should never have sold it to 'upgrade'.
Because of the slightly bigger body (due to a bigger battery) it has become less popular vs smaller M10s.
Avoid the M8/9 series. Even if you get an M9 that has the improved non corroding sensor, there is so much wrong w the rest of the camera:
1. Awful rear LCD that basically is only useful to confirm that you took a photo
2. The absolute worst feeling shutter button I have ever experienced. Only my Zenit 35mm slrs are worse. Gritty with uneven throw.
3. Super loud shutter noise and re-cock action. Sounds like a Polaroid instant camera.
4. Worst AWB I have experienced in a digital camera
5. Super finicky with SD cards
6. RF tends to drift very easily
So anyway, any M camera from the M240 or M10 stable.
p.1 #5 · Best Used Leica-M models & Must-Have Lenses
I spent some time thinking about this before my purchase and I agree that the M240 and M10 are the price/performance sweet spot. A great way to treat yourself after your medical experience. And Voigtlander lenses are excellent.
p.1 #6 · Best Used Leica-M models & Must-Have Lenses
Just saw the mention re R lenses. I have R lenses but only use them on my R cameras. They are superb - as good as my M lenses. But don't waste time and adapt them to an M - it just becomes a big, ungainly experience and you will have to use the EVF to focus - which means you will need to buy the clip on EVF.
Great suggestion from my cockney brother Panos - start w the CV 35 1.4 II. I have lots of lenses including that one, and I love it! Shoot with it for a while until you get the hang of/gel with the camera. Then think about whhat else you may need.
p.1 #7 · Best Used Leica-M models & Must-Have Lenses
Desmolicious wrote:
Great suggestion from my cockney brother Panos - start w the CV 35 1.4 II. I have lots of lenses including that one, and I love it! Shoot with it for a while until you get the hang of/gel with the camera. Then think about whhat else you may need.
p.1 #8 · Best Used Leica-M models & Must-Have Lenses
I was in a position where I wanted to experience a Leica M but not with a Leica budget.
I settled at the time on the idea of buying a film M camera but I was shooting film quite scarcely and thought if I bought one I wouldn’t use it as much as I’d like.
So I went for an M9 thinking it was in between film and digital as the myth said.
I’d like to defend the M9 a bit because many say that the CCD sensor does not live up to its reputation and I beg to differ, not everything can be done in post and even so, it’s in theory, it can demand some serious skill and time to obtain certain results that way.
I have with the M9 some shots I could not have had with another camera and when it works, it works wonders, I have a lot of bad ones too because it’s still old tech.
The limitations and nature of the sensor can give some filmic effects and sometimes it just gives poor tech cmos like 2005 blandness.
I have not tried the M240 and despite my love for the M9, I think it can be a wise choice, it can delivers some really good colors for what I have seen.
I watched a lot of photos and videos at the time on youtube, there are some great ones of people explaining how they choose one or the other for the purpose of documenting everyday life.
I think the M9 and M240 can be a great choice, either one of the other, they are still old tech as said before, you’ll get some bad ones but the good ones are worth it.
And there is the camera in itself, I don’t think I’m really a rangefinder guy but I do like to pretend to be one when I want to slow down.
If you habe the budget, the M10 is said to be closer to what the M9 could offer in colors without the downsides but some other here would know better than me, I didn’t try any not have been close to one.
p.1 #9 · Best Used Leica-M models & Must-Have Lenses
Another vote for the M240 ... but, I'd opt for the M240-P. It has the larger buffer, and an improved shutter release.
I kinda miss mine, but since I traded it for the M10R (also another vote) ... the point is it served me well, when I had it. M10-P or M10 are in the mix somewhere, too.
And, then there's the M246 monochrome ... but, that's a specialty rig, so it's probably not a "starter" Leica.
Glass ... I'd ask the question of what focal length's do you prefer? Either a single lens or a two-lens setup, depending on your preferences and intended subject matter / use? Specific glass recommendations after you give some input for desired pref's / usage goals.
p.1 #10 · Best Used Leica-M models & Must-Have Lenses
I’ve trialed lots of lenses and I’ve settled on 3: the 35 summicron (mine is the v4 but it’s just because what I’ve got), the 35mm f1.2 Voigtlander nokton and the 50mm LLL. I find that I prefer small size over really fast lenses and this set gives me that while pulling out the nokton when I want fast. I love its rendering but it is a bit unwieldy relative to the others.
Regarding body choices, you’ve gotten lots of good feedback already. I will say I didn’t have any trouble with my M11 and only sold it because I wanted the monochrom.
Definitely buy used and from a seller here with good feedback. I’ve never been a part of a community with such trustworthy buyers and sellers as we have here.
p.1 #12 · Best Used Leica-M models & Must-Have Lenses
retrofocus wrote:
The Leica M9 had supposedly a Kodak CCD sensor which unfortunately suffered from corrosion issues on the sensor surface after a short time. Leica replaced for free corrosion based M9 sensors but has stopped this program a few years ago since this sensor is no longer made. Many collectors like the vibrant colors coming from this sensor, but RedDotForum has a nice side-by-side comparison between M9 and successor M 240 based cameras with CMOS sensor showing that the M 240 can obtain the same vibrant colors with bit of post processing of the RAW image. IMO there is no technical advantage to go with the M9 over a newer digital M model. If still deciding to go with a M9 make sure that the sensor was replaced with a corrosion-free one and get proof about this from the seller.
The best price/quality ratio in used digital M cameras is currently provided by the M 240 series cameras. Some like the M-P and the M-E 240 have the same buffer size as the M10 successor model - 2 GB (standard M 240 ones only have 1 GB affecting the camera picture taking speed). The cameras have 24 MP full-frame resolution.
For a higher price with same 24 MP resolution the M10 series is highly regarded. The M10-R falls into the same M10 series ballpark but has actually a very different sensor than in the M10: higher resolution with about 40 MP and more dynamic range at higher ISO. If money is not an issue, I would go with a M10-R at this point since it is one of the best performing and reliable digital M's out there now. Just the price tag is still quite high likely due to unbroken demand for it.
Reason why the M10-R remains so successful is that the M11 came with a bunch of issues. Some were fixed with firmware upgrades but others like camera freezing issues seem to be a gamble with the M11 to get a good copy avoiding it or a bad one. The electronic shutter in the M11 is another point of discussions.
Regarding lenses, you can mount with adapter R lenses on M cameras but you loose focusing capabilities with the rangefinder. R-lenses have no rangefinder coupling on the lens to allow this. You have to use external EVF or LiveView to accomplish focusing with R-lenses (if not just zone focusing by estimating). R-lenses are optically as good as the similar M lenses manufactured at the time, but R-lenses are more bulky SLR type ones and as mentioned not made to work with rangefinder M camera focusing. ...Show more →
Hey, thanks for taking the time to write such a great analysis on older and some newer Leica M cameras. You really helped me narrow it down to 2 M models, I think the M 240 or its more powerful brother, or the M 10. Having a couple of choices when shopping for a used camera makes it a lot easier, especially if you know what to avoid. It also sounds like the R lenses aren't ideal, as I thought. But there are a few choices of equal quality out there without the huge price tag on each lens. Thanks for clarifying it so we'll.
Bill
p.1 #13 · Best Used Leica-M models & Must-Have Lenses
I just started with the MP240 and I'm loving it so far, left me more money for lenses. So much sold I've sold all my other cameras and now heading full steam into Leica. The smaller body of the M10 is tempting, but the battery life on the 240 is fantastic - I usually just let it go into standby, don't use the screen much and I get about 4-7 days of casual use before I need to recharge.
As for sensors, I do think in some situations the CCD sensor can shine, but not enough for me to deal with the 1.33x crop factor of the M8 or the corrosion of the M9. The M240 and M10 sensors were made by CMOSIS and still look better than any sony sensor to me (like the M11).
I don't know if the M10-R sensor was made by CMOSIS or Sony, anyone care to chime in?
p.1 #15 · Best Used Leica-M models & Must-Have Lenses
I don't have enough experience with all the various digital models to make any worthwhile recommendations. I'm sure you'll get a ton of recommendations for Cosina Voigtlander lenses and you shouldn't ignore them. Cosina's offering premium optics at relatively bargain prices. If I were going to put together a really solid all-around kit, I'd look at the Ultron 28/2 vII, the Nokton 40/1.2, and the Ultron 75/1.9. If I wanted to save some weight and money, I'd look at the Color-Skopar 28/2.8, Heliar 40/2.8, but stick with the Ultron 75, because you're not going to do better for the money and size.
If this is a budget red dot splurge, OEM lenses or nothing, I'd look at the Elmarit-M 28/2.8 ASPH, Summicron-C 40, and Summarit 75/2.4 (or 2.5- it's the same lens). If it's a full-on red dot splurge, Summilux 28, APO-Summicron 50, and APO-Summicron 75.
p.1 #17 · Best Used Leica-M models & Must-Have Lenses
BPsmith511 wrote:
I just started with the MP240 and I'm loving it so far, left me more money for lenses. So much sold I've sold all my other cameras and now heading full steam into Leica. The smaller body of the M10 is tempting, but the battery life on the 240 is fantastic - I usually just let it go into standby, don't use the screen much and I get about 4-7 days of casual use before I need to recharge.
As for sensors, I do think in some situations the CCD sensor can shine, but not enough for me to deal with the 1.33x crop factor of the M8 or the corrosion of the M9. The M240 and M10 sensors were made by CMOSIS and still look better than any sony sensor to me (like the M11).
I don't know if the M10-R sensor was made by CMOSIS or Sony, anyone care to chime in?...Show more →
I'm certain the M10-R sensor is not from Sony, but I don't know who designed it. I've heard from a reliable source that it's based on the medium format Leica sensor, just scaled down. In terms of color reproduction and dynamic range, it's by far my favorite, although I also like the M240 and M9 output. In terms of DR, the M10-R performs the same as the M11 at ISO 100 but the latter does slightly better at ISO 64.
