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Archive 2024 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

BeatX
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p.1 #1 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

So it is 4 months since I've bought X-H2, and I want to share with You guys my observations and thoughts, about new Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor when it comes to printing.
I did not do any tests to check differences in high ISO noise level, or DR compared to previous generations of X-Trans sensors.
First of all, what are practical benefits from X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor vs X-Trans IV 26Mpix sensor (?)
There are two benefits as far as I'm aware: ability to print larger prints (40x60cm @300dpi) and do more crop in postproces.
I've upgraded X-S10 to X-H2 mainly because I wanted to decorate my home with large prints, so quality of prints (amount of fine details in prints) is important for me.
I don't crop a lot, but it is nice to have such option

So, finally I could put my system to test, when it comes to quality of large prints (mainly amount of fine details what is on my mind)
Here is photo I do print in 40x60cm size @300dpi:

_IMG6670 by Maciej Kozłowski, on Flickr

Full size photo:

Im pretty sure I do squeeze everything I could with X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor, sience I do use one of the sharpest UWA lens available for Fuji X system - Viltrox 13/1.4, stopped down to its peak performance @ f/5.6
Photo above was demosaiced in DXO PureRAW 3 (sharpening disabled), edited in C1 (with sharpening set to 0), then I do export file to .tiff and sharpen it in Topaz Sharpen AI.
Finally I do import sharpened .tiff to C1 and export it to .jpg with 100% quality, and as such I do sent it to my trusty online lab.

After receiving prints I wasn't impressed to be honest, when it comes to fine details.
All these fine details just wasn't there.
Hope photo below will show You what Im talking about:

I mean, it is not that print quality is bad, it just looks more-less like printing from 26Mpix sensor in larger size (print looks upscaled)
I will only note that when I printed photos from the same lab when I used the X-S10 in 30x45cm size (@300 dpi), each print was printed tack sharp corner to cornet. Just perfect

Was expecting way more details from new X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor.
So I do some research to find out what is going on, and answer - as always - was on lenstip.com

On this page You will find detailed resolution measurements of X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor:

https://www.optyczne.pl/482.4-Test_aparatu-Fujifilm_X-H2_Rozdzielczo%C5%9B%C4%87.html

Unfortunately, there is no englishh version of this review so let me translate summary for You:

quote:
"The X-H2 achieved a result of approximately 10% higher than the X-H2S, equipped with a 26-megapixel sensor. We won't kid ourselves here - it's not a big increase. In this part of the test we used a total of five lenses, and the best one was the new 1.2/56 WR. Unfortunately, despite our efforts, we were unable to obtain the 2/50 WR instrument, which we usually used to achieve the highest performance."

Then, I find this unique and excellent YT Video, where are very detailed tests of how much differences in resolving fine details are in X-H1 vs X-H2 vs GFX 50R vs GFX 100S

?si=UgZjXlXCqy3BmmGx

I do highly recommend You all to check this video, to see on Your own eyes truth, about aps-c 24Mpix vs 40Mpix, with direct comparison to MF 50Mpix vs 100Mpix
But for those who don't want to watch this video, here is summary:

Files from 40Mpix sensor compared to 24Mpix are just larger - and that's it.
40Mpix sensor has very symbolic fine details advantage (almost negligible)
I believe that You can achieve similar result, by upscaling 24Mpix file to 40Mpix in Photoshop.

X-H2 40Mpix sensor vs GFX 50R 50Mpix sensor is like day and night difference when it comes to amount of fine details - it is just another league. Period.
GFX 100S 100Mpix sensor compared to GFX 50R 50Mpix sensor gives surprisingly little gain in resolving fine details.
I wish to see direct comparison from FF ~45Mpix file to MF 50Mpix, but I suspect MF will resolve definitely more fine details than any FF sensor with top lens.
No surprise in there, but conclusions from this video confirms measurements from lenstip.com, and it confirms what I see in my prints.

Fine detail gain from a X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor compared to X-Trans IV 26Mpix (or even X-Trans III 24Mpix) sensor is simply symbolic, and it only causes more trouble than it brings benefits (diffraction starts earlier, larger files, slightly worse high ISO noise levels)

Don't get any illusions guys - you can't cheat physics.
26Mpix is sweet spot for aps-c size sensor, and further increasing the resolution for this format is as pointless, as packing more pixels into sensors in mobile phones

Summary,
Anyone of You who has high standards for paper prints, needs to accept fact that for Fujifilm X system 30x45cm size print is maximum when it comes to amount of details.
Those of You, who want to print in larger sizes (like 40x60cm @300 dpi and more), high resolution FF or even better - MF are only way. There are no shortcuts.
But X-T5 or X-H2 users has little small bonus, as this 40Mpix sensor has some small room for cropping to achieve quality identical as from 26Mpix sensor
Nice to have it, when You need to correct lens or perspective distortion

Feb 04, 2024 at 10:35 AM

cbass
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p.1 #2 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

Welcome to reality. Indeed, you can't cheat physics.

Prints also have limits due to paper and printers.

I don't agree on the size though. I think you can print 40x60cm and even larger with 24MP APS-C. Just use upscaling software: use the pre-AI software and you can get away with enlarging the file pretty far. I think you have to print much larger before you see significant differences between APS-C and larger formats like FF and MF (assuming favorable conditions and good technique).

Feb 04, 2024 at 11:42 AM

gdanmitchell
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p.1 #3 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

To cut to the chase here, if you are getting a softer print at some size from a 40MP sensor than from a 26MP sensor the problem does not lie with the sensor. A higher density sensor will not make your print less sharp. (It is possible that it will not make it MORE sharp, but it can�t make it less sharp.)

If you are having this issue, your problem lies elsewhere � lens, focus accuracy, something in your post-processing workflow. (I�d take a close look at your sharpening routine, assuming that you are shooting raw.)

It is also not unusual for some folks to have odd ideas about what a �sharp� photograph actually looks like. I urge them to go visit some galleries where excellent large prints are posted and to look at them very closely to get a sense of reality.

It is useful to recognized that whilst he 40MP sensor does record more detail than the 26MP sensor, the increase is not going to be as striking as the numbers may first suggest. If you do the math regarding print dimensions with interpolated files from both sensors you�ll see that the differences isn�t gigantic. Recognize, too, that other factors play into the final result.

I print large. I have an in-house P9000, so I can print to 44� roll paper width. A while back, after reading one of these �can�t get sharp prints from my x-trans� threads I decided to make a 40� wide print from a shot that I did handheld using the XT5 and the 27mm f/2.8. (Seriously.)

It looks great. (The iPhone shot of it shown here was made in non-ideal lighting, and the actual color is better than what you see here.)

If you can�t get an utterly excellent print at 20� x 30� (not cm) from a well-shot x-trans image using a sensor of 24MP or more you need to shoot more carefully or learn how to post process and print.

Dan

https://gallery.gdanmitchell.com/gallery/var/albums/HumanWorld/Unclassified/Random-Images/IMG_5554.jpg

Feb 04, 2024 at 11:49 AM

BeatX
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p.1 #4 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

gdanmitchell wrote:
To cut to the chase here, if you are getting a softer print at some size from a 40MP sensor than from a 26MP sensor the problem does not lie with the sensor. A higher density sensor will not make your print less sharp. (It is possible that it will not make it MORE sharp, but it can�t make it less sharp.)

It is not, that Im getting softer prints from X-H2 sensor than from my former X-S10.
Prints from X-H2 (in 40x60cm size) looks like slightly upscaled from 26Mpix sensor, and that's it.
There are details, but I will say that they look like enlarged from 26Mpix sensor.

gdanmitchell wrote:
If you are having this issue, your problem lies elsewhere � lens, focus accuracy, something in your post-processing workflow. (I�d take a close look at your sharpening routine, assuming that you are shooting raw.)

I did send to lab exactly the same file, as I posted in here (the one in full size), and I write down my workflow

so I'm pretty sure I did everything right.

gdanmitchell wrote:
It is also not unusual for some folks to have odd ideas about what a �sharp� photograph actually looks like. I urge them to go visit some galleries where excellent large prints are posted and to look at them very closely to get a sense of reality.

Problem is, that I've seen photo exhibitions with excellent quality large prints, and medicore quality large prints.
Common thing was, that in every case - no one criticized the prints quality. Everyone was happy

We can both have different standards as for prints goes, so it is impossible to judge who is right.
It is the same as for audio gear, Sound output (audio quality) from one system will be enough for You - but not enough for me, and who is right?

gdanmitchell wrote:
It is useful to recognized that whilst he 40MP sensor does record more detail than the 26MP sensor, the increase is not going to be as striking as the numbers may first suggest. If you do the math regarding print dimensions with interpolated files from both sensors you�ll see that the differences isn�t gigantic. Recognize, too, that other factors play into the final result.

I print large. I have an in-house P9000, so I can print to 44� roll paper width. A while back, after reading one of these �can�t get sharp prints from my x-trans� threads I decided to make...Show more →

Well.. it is hard for me to say anything about this print.
I would have to see it with my own eyes in good lighting, to evaluate.
But Im pretty sure You are happy with this print, so I'm happy that You are happy!

Feb 04, 2024 at 12:22 PM

bobby350z
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p.1 #5 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

First I thought OP was talking 40x60". 40x60cm is a little bigger than a 16x20 print, isn't it. Even my old 8-10MP cameras did it well. Something else wrong. Just process it normally through C1 and see what you get. Why DXO and all the other stuff. Maybe I don't know or just shooting GFX spoils you. Never used any extra sharpening myself.

Feb 04, 2024 at 12:25 PM

BeatX
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p.1 #6 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

cbass wrote:
Welcome to reality. Indeed, you can't cheat physics.

Prints also have limits due to paper and printers.

I don't agree on the size though. I think you can print 40x60cm and even larger with 24MP APS-C. Just use upscaling software: use the pre-AI software and you can get away with enlarging the file pretty far. I think you have to print much larger before you see significant differences between APS-C and larger formats like FF and MF (assuming favorable conditions and good technique).

I did tested AI upscaling using Topaz Gigapixel.
So I run this photo through Topaz Gigapixel (I do sharpen only that part of the image where temple is)

DSCF8870 by Maciej Kozłowski, on Flickr

Picture was taken with X-S10 and I printed it in 40x60cm size.
Final result? very so, so. Nothing like it can replace medium format

Did You print in large format from Your aps-c camera?

Feb 04, 2024 at 12:29 PM

BeatX
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p.1 #7 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

bobby350z wrote:
First I thought OP was talking 40x60". 40x60cm is a little bigger than a 16x20 print, isn't it. Even my old 8-10MP cameras did it well. Something else wrong. Just process it normally through C1 and see what you get. Why DXO and all the other stuff. Maybe I don't know or just shooting GFX spoils you. Never used any extra sharpening myself.

Hi bobby!
Thx for Your insights

Feb 04, 2024 at 12:36 PM

cbass
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p.1 #8 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

@BeatX

I am not a huge fan of the AI upscale software. It is capable of making up things that weren't in the original picture and honestly, they aren't necessary if your you are doing an enlargement up to 3-4x the original, which I rarely if ever need to do.

I have a 16MP APS-C XT-1. I never upgraded to the X-T2 or anything beyond that as I couldn't see a huge difference in IQ. I upscaled the 16MP to 24MP and the differences were too minor for me to buy the next model. I also have a Fuji GFX 50S and I agree on everything you presented. There is a giant leap in IQ although pixels between 40MP and 50MP are not a big difference.

It depends on what you consider large. I rare print very large. I have printed good quantities of 16x20 inches and 11x14 inches, but I do not consider those large. For those 16MP APS-C is not an issue. You don't even need that much. 40x60cm is around 16 x 23 inches and I do not consider large or a size where you will see differences even between APS-C and larger formats.

This guy has done several such comparisons, and he printed much larger than 40x60cm.

&t=388s

&t=1017s

Edited on Feb 04, 2024 at 02:49 PM · View previous versions

Feb 04, 2024 at 12:52 PM

BeatX
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p.1 #9 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

cbass wrote:
It depends on what you consider large. I rare print very large. I have printed large amounts of 16x20 inches and 11x14 inches, but I do not consider those large. For those 16MP APS-C is not an issue. You don't even need that much. 40x60cm is around 16 x 23 inches and I do not consider large or a size where you will see differences even between APS-C and larger formats.

This guy has done several such comparisons, and he printed much larger than 40x60cm.

&t=388s

&t=1017s

Oh, that is very interesting what You said.
Since I've never used MF, not to mention to print in large size from this format.
Thanks for YT videos, I'm starting to watch it

PS. Can You tell me how You put YT video with thumbnails, instead of pure link?

Feb 04, 2024 at 01:12 PM

AuthPQ
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p.1 #10 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

Thanks for the detailed and informative input

Feb 04, 2024 at 01:19 PM

RoamingScott
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p.1 #11 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

If you have high standards for printing, why are you shooting either APS-C or X-Trans?

Feb 04, 2024 at 01:58 PM

BeatX
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p.1 #12 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

RoamingScott wrote:
If you have high standards for printing, why are you shooting either APS-C or X-Trans?

Im looking at medium format for long time, but at this moment it is out of my budget

(even if it is not as expensive compared to competition)

It would be hard for me, to convince my wife that I need better photo toys, than lets say.. new car (if You know what I mean)

But eventually I will become MF shooter. It is only matter of time.
aps-c is just a temporary part of my photo journey

(same as it was FF DSLR)

Feb 04, 2024 at 02:09 PM

RoamingScott
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p.1 #13 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

BeatX wrote:
Im looking at medium format for long time, but at this moment it is out of my budget

(same as it was FF DSLR)

I can appreciate all of that. I don't think it's necessary in the least to shoot MF to get great prints. I'm regularly printing FF 45-60mp files at 60" wide.

I have enjoyed all of my Fuji prints when printed at reasonable sizes for the sensor, all the way down to the 24 MP sensors.

I think having realistic expectations is the most important thing here.

Feb 04, 2024 at 02:14 PM

bobby350z
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p.1 #14 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

BeatX wrote:
Hi bobby!
Thx for Your insights

But seems like for me, that You are not fully aware about demosaicing process of RAW files and how important it is for "squeezing" max fine details from Fujifilm X-Trans sensor.

Software like Iridient X-Transformer or DXO PureRAW 3 are crucial, if You want to get best results from Fujifilm X-Trans sensors

I do recommend You to read this short article:
https://www.dxo.com/news/unique-sensor/

I started with XT-1. At the time Lr wasn't good but later it improved quite a bit. Didn't see much problems with Lr or C1. Maybe the lens is no good in the corners. Maybe some shooting techniue can be improved. I can't imagine that 40MP is not good for 16x20 print. Should be plenty good for 20x30 sharp print.

Feb 04, 2024 at 02:48 PM

BeatX
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p.1 #15 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

bobby350z wrote:
Maybe some shooting techniue can be improved.

You find anything problematic in my first image? (the one with full resolution), because it was exactly this file which I send to online photo lab for prints

bobby350z wrote:
I can't imagine that 40MP is not good for 16x20 print. Should be plenty good for 20x30 sharp print.

Pure number of megapixel count in sensor itself, is one of many aspects for final output in paper prints.
But its not crucial.
I think lens sharpness, understanding of diffraction limit, is more important than pure megapixel count, when You care about lots of fine details in final image.

My wife Huawei P30 smarphone has 40Mpix sensor in main camera (Sony IMX650 sensor)
Does it mean, it will produce same amount of fine details compared to X-H2 and my Viltrox 13/1.4 and 27/1.2 ?

Feb 04, 2024 at 03:04 PM

cbass
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p.1 #16 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

BeatX wrote:
Im looking at medium format for long time, but at this moment it is out of my budget

(same as it was FF DSLR)

I was in a similar position/mindset. It came to the point where my X-T1 was starting to age and a new X series body was over $1500. I found a new old stock Fuji GFX 50s for less than $2K, which was what a new X body would cost me. The hang up, however, was that each GFX lens was more than a new X body. When Fuji released the 35-70 and sold them for $500 that's all I needed to push me over the edge. Also, used prices on the GFX lenses have dropped where they aren't cheap, but aren't worse than most high-end FF lenses.

I would not buy a GFX for the print size you mentioned. At those print sizes you mentioned you shouldn't be seeing any significant detail differences. The videos I sent you the guy can't see differences in detail between prints and he's probably right. However, I still see differences. They are in the highlights and if they are able to retain good color accuracy and saturation or have started to blow out. This is also true for the shadow area, although you won't see that in a youtube video. The medium format sensors are able to maintain color accuracy and saturation up to 4500 ISO. FF depending on sensor generation does around 3000-3500 ISO. This isn't just for low light shooting. This makes a difference in landscapes where you need to pull up deep shadows. It gives you some extra room. Typically, they will tell you to expose to the right to help with noise in shadows. The MF sensor has an advantage in such scenarios over FF.

Feb 04, 2024 at 03:59 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.1 #17 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

BeatX wrote:
Well.. it is hard for me to say anything about this print.
I would have to see it with my own eyes in good lighting, to evaluate.
But Im pretty sure You are happy with this print, so I'm happy that You are happy!

Indeed, you cannot personally evaluate the quality of that print in the form I presented it here. It is difficult, I hear, to upload 40� prints to FM.

It isn�t that I�m �happy with this print.� It was a test to see what a print at that size would look like. It looks very good.

bobby350z wrote:
First I thought OP was talking 40x60". 40x60cm is a little bigger than a 16x20 print, isn't it. Even my old 8-10MP cameras did it well. Something else wrong. Just process it normally through C1 and see what you get. Why DXO and all the other stuff. Maybe I don't know or just shooting GFX spoils you. Never used any extra sharpening myself.

Exactly. This poster tells us that a 40MP x-trans sensor camera is limited to print of about the 12� x 18� size. That�s simply ridiculous.

cbass wrote:
@BeatX@

I am not a huge fan of the AI upscale software. It is capable of making up things that weren't in the original picture and honestly, they aren't necessary if your you are doing an enlargement up to 3-4x the original, which I rarely if ever need to do.

I have a 16MP APS-C XT-1. I never upgraded to the X-T2 or anything beyond that as I couldn't see a huge difference in IQ. I upscaled the 16MP to 24MP and the differences were too minor for me to buy the next model. I also have a Fuji GFX 50S...Show more →

I agree that such software for upscaling should rarely be necessary and mostly only in edge cases with extremely large prints. There�s no reason at all to use it with the print sizes we are talking about here.

I also started using Fujifilm x-trans cameras when the sensors were 16MP. If one knows what they are doing, even the 16MP files can often produce excellent prints are surprisingly large sizes.

I once had a client enquire about a particular architectural image of mine that I had show with a 16MP x-trans camera and the Fujifilm 14mm f/2.8 lens. They were interested in a print that was, IIRC, something like 36� on the long size or a few inches larger. At that point I had not printed a Fujifilm 16MP x-trans file that large, so I told the client that I�d need to make some test prints first to see if it could work, and that I was not certain that it would. (My policy is to

Somewhat to my surprise it worked beautifully, and the client ended up pleased with the result, too.

My personal rule of thumb, starting with the 24MP sensors, was that I could trust that a well-shot and appropriately post-processed x-trans file could reliably produce a good 20� x 30� print. It is even possible to go larger depending on the image. (I regard 30� x 45� as the comparable dividing line for FF images.) Yes, these are generalizations.

bobby350z wrote:
I started with XT-1. At the time Lr wasn't good but later it improved quite a bit. Didn't see much problems with Lr or C1. Maybe the lens is no good in the corners. Maybe some shooting techniue can be improved. I can't imagine that 40MP is not good for 16x20 print. Should be plenty good for 20x30 sharp print.

That�s really the bottom line here. If someone can�t get a excellent print from a 40MP x-trans file at sizes larger than 12� x 18�, the problem is not the camera and probably not the lenses either.

We made fine prints at that size and larger from 8MP originals back in the day.

Feb 04, 2024 at 04:49 PM

cbass
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p.1 #18 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

@BeatX

Here is something else to consider.

Camera pixel size limited resolution (in lp/mm) = 1000/(2 x pixel-size-in-μm)
Fuji GFX 50 pixel size:5.3μm
1000/2 x 5.3μm = 94 lp/mm

Fuji X-T5 pixel size: 3.04μm
1000/2 x 3.04μm = 164 lp/mm

That assumes sensor can achieve 100% of the theoretical limit and it won't. However, a lens that can do 94 lp/mm is an excellent lens but with today's technology pretty achievable. A lens that can do 164 lp/mm is a completely different story. That is a world class lens and the cost to make it is going to be high and the design complex.

Let's be generous and assume the sensor can achieve the theoretical. You still have mm, which is a size measurement.

Fuji GFX 50 = 1441.02mm2 (43.80mm x 32.90mm)
Fuji X-T5 = 366.6mm2 (23.50mm x 15.60mm)

43.80 x 94 = 4,117.2
32.9 x 94 = 3,092.6

23.50 x 164 = 3,854
15.6 x 164 = 2,558.4

However, I wouldn't get caught up in all that because generally almost nobody prints at sizes where that is going to make a difference. What you have is capable of much larger prints. Are you sure you are using a quality print shop? The other simpler explanation is you didn't see a difference between 24 or 40 MP APS-C is because you printed too small at 16x23 inches (40x60cm).

Feb 04, 2024 at 04:49 PM

Geoff D F
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p.1 #19 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

I've printed 90cm wide landscape prints taken with a 12mp camera. If you can't get at least 60cm wide detailed prints, or more like 90cm wide prints with the X-T5, good lenses and good technique then something other than the camera is wrong. I've printed detailed 30x45cm prints with taken with a 6mp Canon Rebel and the original 18-55 kit lens.

Feb 04, 2024 at 06:18 PM

cbass
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p.1 #20 · My opinion and thoughts about Fujifilm X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor

BeatX wrote:
PS. Can You tell me how You put YT video with thumbnails, instead of pure link?

I did nothing special. I literally just copy and pasted the youtube url to the post and it automatically embedded.

Feb 04, 2024 at 09:02 PM

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