@bjhurley@, I do like the Canon P idea. The prices on eBay look pretty agreeable. How would a P compare to one of Nikon's S rangefinders? I have liked the idea of trying some of Nikon's LTM lenses anyway, now that I've got a Z.
@OregonSun@, I agree with you completely! That's why I like the F/F2/F3 bodies so much. Still relatively cheap, still reliable, and very capable.
@madNbad@, I hear ya. That B/S M2 should on the way shortly, and I am glad to have found one with a recent CLA.
And just to keep this related to Nikon... I did also buy a nicely-priced F100 today. I'll be picking it up later.
OffTrail wrote:
@bjhurley@@, I do like the Canon P idea. The prices on eBay look pretty agreeable. How would a P compare to one of Nikon's S rangefinders? I have liked the idea of trying some of Nikon's LTM lenses anyway, now that I've got a Z.
The Nikon LTM lenses are pretty spectacular and if I had to do it over again I might choose those over the Canon ones that I have. I do have one Nikkor, the 105/2.5 LTM, the first version from the mid 1950s which had a Sonnar design, and it is fantastic. Nikon subsequently had many versions of that lens, it's iconic. The Nikkor 85/2 LTM is also a Sonnar lens and really lovely and if you look on 35mmc for Agata Urbaniak's reviews of the 35mm and 28mm Nikkor LTM lenses you'll see that they're great too. The Nikkor 50/1.5 LTM is very special but also very pricey. The Nikkor LTM lenses tend to be a bit more expensive than the Canons, but they really are excellent.
I haven't tried any of the Nikon rangefinder cameras so can't say how the Canon P compares. The LTM lenses can be adapted to any mirrorless camera; I use them all the time on my Sony, and of course they can easily be adapted to M-mount as well so if you ever do decide to get a Leica camera you'll be able to use all your LTM lenses as well as M lenses on it.
OffTrail wrote:
@bjhurley@@, I do like the Canon P idea. The prices on eBay look pretty agreeable. How would a P compare to one of Nikon's S rangefinders? I have liked the idea of trying some of Nikon's LTM lenses anyway, now that I've got a Z.
@OregonSun@@, I agree with you completely! That's why I like the F/F2/F3 bodies so much. Still relatively cheap, still reliable, and very capable.
@madNbad@@, I hear ya. That B/S M2 should on the way shortly, and I am glad to have found one with a recent CLA.
And just to keep this related to Nikon... I did also buy a nicely-priced F100 today. I'll be picking it up later....Show more →
Congratulations on the M2! Give us an update when it arrives.
Careful with the door latch on the F100. If you don’t snap it shut it’ll be fine. I think Huss posted some instructions on how to keep your latch from breaking. There is also a guy making metal replacement latches.
Have fun!
madNbad wrote:
Congratulations on the M2! Give us an update when it arrives.
Careful with the door latch on the F100. If you don’t snap it shut it’ll be fine. I think Huss posted some instructions on how to keep your latch from breaking. There is also a guy making metal replacement latches.
Have fun!
Will-do! Also picked up a used Voigtlander 50 f/1.5 II MC from cameraquest to go with it. Fred's review was convincing enough, and I would like a more compact lens than the 40 f/1.2 at first.
My first F100 stood up to being slammed shut long enough for the body to just die out of nowhere. I didn't know better then, but I'll treat this one more gingerly.
I've sorta kinda wanted to replace that first one for awhile, but they're typically priced too close to F/F2/F3 bodies to interest me. But this one was priced right and looks clean. I'll probably use it for awhile and end up moving it along.
OregonSun wrote:
Remember, a film camera is just a box that holds film and you can attach a lens to. Plenty of cheap, reliable, excellent options if you're not obsessed with having a Leica
yeah but no but...
Two extremes - Nikon N80 and Leica M7/P/A/6 etc.
I like the N80 so much I have two. An absolute insane bargain (I paid $20 each but more commonly they are $50 - still crazy cheap). Takes fantastic pics. Just a great piece of equipment.
I don't know what mojo Leica used when they came up with the Ms, but they are just so pleasurable to look at, pick up, hold and use. They just make me pick them up and go out and take pics. They make me find excuses to go take pics.
The perfect camera is the one that you want to use. I use Leicas more than my other gear.
OffTrail wrote:
Will-do! Also picked up a used Voigtlander 50 f/1.5 II MC from cameraquest to go with it. Fred's review was convincing enough, and I would like a more compact lens than the 40 f/1.2 at first.
My first F100 stood up to being slammed shut long enough for the body to just die out of nowhere. I didn't know better then, but I'll treat this one more gingerly.
I've sorta kinda wanted to replace that first one for awhile, but they're typically priced too close to F/F2/F3 bodies to interest me. But this one was priced right and looks clean. I'llprobably use it for awhile and end up moving it along. ...Show more →
F100 is a great camera. Just remember to hold the back release latch up when you close the back. Instead of just letting it snap shut. This will extend the life of the plastic door latch. N80/75 etc have the same issue. For some reason Nikon switched to plastic from metal, and only on the pro single digit Fs they kept the metal latches.
Desmolicious wrote:
F100 is a great camera. Just remember to hold the back release latch up when you close the back. Instead of just letting it snap shut. This will extend the life of the plastic door latch. N80/75 etc have the same issue. For some reason Nikon switched to plastic from metal, and only on the pro single digit Fs they kept the metal latches.
I don't remember if I've commented this before or not, but there's a guy on eBay making repair kits with metal latches for these cameras. $40-something a piece, and in my view worth a shot if you did break the latch.
I have very mixed feelings about the FM2n. From a tactile standpoint, it's always been the ultimate camera for me -- simplicity and lightweight, and perfectly functional when you've lost battery power and had to continue shooting without a meter. I learned photography on cameras with no light meters, and to me a light fully manual camera was the right answer. To me the FM2n was the full-on Zen camera experience for the Nikon ecosystem. I was a left-eye shooter but never got poked, probably because my nose was big enough to protect me.
In the days of early AF I carried an N8008 in my pack, which was a very versatile and surprisingly robust camera. I carried the FM2n for backup for those times that batteries would run out and the 8008 would completely stop working. One of the beautiful aspects of the FM2n was that it didn't require batteries to function -- fully mechanical other than for the light meter that I didn't really need. The only problem? The FM series of cameras were definitely consumer grade in terms of durability.
On one of my western USA motorcycle trips during the early AF era I got broadsided by a compact car going about 40. Luckily the horizontally opposed boxer engine on the bike protected my leg from amputation by the car's front bumper. The bike got thrown about 40 feet, I left the bike in midair, and we both had very hard sliding landings.
All of my camera gear was readily accessible (and minimally protected) in the tank bag because I was too lazy to put it into the hard pannier cases. The N8008 survived without a problem, as did my 20mm AF, 28-70 and 80-200 push-pull zooms. The FM2n didn't fare so well. It took a hit that caved-in the top of the prism, sheared off the film rewind lever/shaft and bent the top of the body around the film rewind lever. From a functional standpoint the shutter, prism and meter still work fine, but the cost of a body case top and film rewind system have been cost-prohibitive to the repair, so it's been a shelf display item since the 90s.
I absolutely love the ergonomics and the simple camera experience of the FM2n, but I wouldn't buy another one today. If I were shopping for a film body I'd definitely go with a more durable professional grade body -- either the F2 or more likely the F3HP (I wear glasses). I've owned the F4. It was a beast of a camera and I really don't miss it.
I'd really like to have an F3 if I get back into shooting film, but if I'm going to commit to film again, that would mean doing my own in-house processing. If I go to all that trouble, I seriously doubt that I would mess with 35 -- at that point I think that the commitment to film requires enough critical mass to justify going back to a Rollei TLR or a 500 C/M. To me, it's worth continuing to shoot digital in lieu of 35mm, and when committing to the work involved with processing film, medium format provides a higher return for your time commitment.
I like Fred's idea for a Pentax 67, but in my case I'd go 'blad.
coralnut wrote:
I have very mixed feelings about the FM2n. From a tactile standpoint, it's always been the ultimate camera for me -- simplicity and lightweight, and perfectly functional when you've lost battery power and had to continue shooting without a meter. I learned photography on cameras with no light meters, and to me a light fully manual camera was the right answer. To me the FM2n was the full-on Zen camera experience for the Nikon ecosystem. I was a left-eye shooter but never got poked, probably because my nose was big enough to protect me.
In the days of early AF I carried an N8008 in my pack, which was a very versatile and surprisingly robust camera. I carried the FM2n for backup for those times that batteries would run out and the 8008 would completely stop working. One of the beautiful aspects of the FM2n was that it didn't require batteries to function -- fully mechanical other than for the light meter that I didn't really need. The only problem? The FM series of cameras were definitely consumer grade in terms of durability.
On one of my western USA motorcycle trips during the early AF era I got broadsided by a compact car going about 40. Luckily the horizontally opposed boxer engine on the bike protected my leg from amputation by the car's front bumper. The bike got thrown about 40 feet, I left the bike in midair, and we both had very hard sliding landings.
All of my camera gear was readily accessible (and minimally protected) in the tank bag because I was too lazy to put it into the hard pannier cases. The N8008 survived without a problem, as did my 20mm AF, 28-70 and 80-200 push-pull zooms. The FM2n didn't fare so well. It took a hit that caved-in the top of the prism, sheared off the film rewind lever/shaft and bent the top of the body around the film rewind lever. From a functional standpoint the shutter, prism and meter still work fine, but the cost of a body case top and film rewind system have been cost-prohibitive to the repair, so it's been a shelf display item since the 90s.
I absolutely love the ergonomics and the simple camera experience of the FM2n, but I wouldn't buy another one today. If I were shopping for a film body I'd definitely go with a more durable professional grade body -- either the F2 or more likely the F3HP (I wear glasses). I've owned the F4. It was a beast of a camera and I really don't miss it.
I'd really like to have an F3 if I get back into shooting film, but if I'm going to commit to film again, that would mean doing my own in-house processing. If I go to all that trouble, I seriously doubt that I would mess with 35 -- at that point I think that the commitment to film requires enough critical mass to justify going back to a Rollei TLR or a 500 C/M. To me, it's worth continuing to shoot digital in lieu of 35mm, and when committing to the work involved with processing film, medium format provides a higher return for your time commitment.
I like Fred's idea for a Pentax 67, but in my case I'd go 'blad....Show more →
coralnut wrote:
You, my friend, are what we call an 'enabler'.
I’m just an equal opportunity film abuser. I mean user.
Plus excellent 35mm cameras are cheeeeep as lomg as you don’t do anything dumb like buy a Leica…
And as the honorable gentleman above mentioned, if you are developing 120, you already are set up to do 35.
coralnut wrote:
I have very mixed feelings about the FM2n. From a tactile standpoint, it's always been the ultimate camera for me -- simplicity and lightweight, and perfectly functional when you've lost battery power and had to continue shooting without a meter. I learned photography on cameras with no light meters, and to me a light fully manual camera was the right answer. To me the FM2n was the full-on Zen camera experience for the Nikon ecosystem. I was a left-eye shooter but never got poked, probably because my nose was big enough to protect me.
In the days of early AF I carried an N8008 in my pack, which was a very versatile and surprisingly robust camera. I carried the FM2n for backup for those times that batteries would run out and the 8008 would completely stop working. One of the beautiful aspects of the FM2n was that it didn't require batteries to function -- fully mechanical other than for the light meter that I didn't really need. The only problem? The FM series of cameras were definitely consumer grade in terms of durability.
On one of my western USA motorcycle trips during the early AF era I got broadsided by a compact car going about 40. Luckily the horizontally opposed boxer engine on the bike protected my leg from amputation by the car's front bumper. The bike got thrown about 40 feet, I left the bike in midair, and we both had very hard sliding landings.
All of my camera gear was readily accessible (and minimally protected) in the tank bag because I was too lazy to put it into the hard pannier cases. The N8008 survived without a problem, as did my 20mm AF, 28-70 and 80-200 push-pull zooms. The FM2n didn't fare so well. It took a hit that caved-in the top of the prism, sheared off the film rewind lever/shaft and bent the top of the body around the film rewind lever. From a functional standpoint the shutter, prism and meter still work fine, but the cost of a body case top and film rewind system have been cost-prohibitive to the repair, so it's been a shelf display item since the 90s.
I absolutely love the ergonomics and the simple camera experience of the FM2n, but I wouldn't buy another one today. If I were shopping for a film body I'd definitely go with a more durable professional grade body -- either the F2 or more likely the F3HP (I wear glasses). I've owned the F4. It was a beast of a camera and I really don't miss it.
I'd really like to have an F3 if I get back into shooting film, but if I'm going to commit to film again, that would mean doing my own in-house processing. If I go to all that trouble, I seriously doubt that I would mess with 35 -- at that point I think that the commitment to film requires enough critical mass to justify going back to a Rollei TLR or a 500 C/M. To me, it's worth continuing to shoot digital in lieu of 35mm, and when committing to the work involved with processing film, medium format provides a higher return for your time commitment.
I like Fred's idea for a Pentax 67, but in my case I'd go 'blad....Show more →
I agree that the FM2N isn’t the last word in durability. Its nothing better than average for advanced consumer grade cameras of its era. I always laugh at the ‘can be used to hammer nails’ argument that some people make about the camera. If you did that you would immediately dent the thin brass covers and probably do internal mechanical damage.
Having said that I would never judge the durability of a camera on its ability to survive a motorcycle crash! Thats not something that would be in the design brief, even for the heavy duty pro cameras. Most of the issues with 30 year old pro cameras is not caused by physical robustness, but the robustness of its electronic circuits, LCD panels and switch gear.
Yeah that 'can be used to hammer nails' line is ridiculous. I've heard it applied to many cameras including the FM2n.
You think your 'insert camera brand and model' camera is tough? Go outside and just drop it onto concrete. Or actually try to hammer nails with it..
But now let me give you an anecdote. A few years ago I was skateboarding with a Nikonos V. I mis-judged a kerb and went flying - totally face planted. My Nikonos also went flying, bounced a few times, then skidded down the street like a hockey puck.
Damage to it? A slight nick on one corner, and very slight scuffing. If this had been any one of my other cameras - Nikon F, F2, FM, Leicas, Minoltas, Pentaxes etc - it would have just broken parts. I still was really bummed out about my Nikonos because it was in perfect shape. Just immaculate.. Oh well.
Just pick up a Nikonos V - it really feels like a block of steel. An upside is that solid body really muffles the shutter sound. And yeah, you can hammer nails with it if you want. But just get a freakin hammer!
Desmolicious wrote:
Yeah that 'can be used to hammer nails' line is ridiculous. I've heard it applied to many cameras including the FM2n.
You think your 'insert camera brand and model' camera is tough? Go outside and just drop it onto concrete. Or actually try to hammer nails with it..
As cool as they are, fully mechanical cameras are actually a lot more prone to failing after shock damage. Sure, no battery needed, but honestly I never had my FE2 battery totally die on me (unless at -40degrees), and if it did the button-cells were commonly available. Not to mention it has a mechanical M250 back-up shutter-speed which always works.
And no way the prosumer Nikons are useful as hammers: Thin brass, plastic, etc. My F3/T on the other hand..
Desmolicious wrote:
But now let me give you an anecdote. A few years ago I was skateboarding with a Nikonos V. I mis-judged a kerb and went flying - totally face planted. My Nikonos also went flying, bounced a few times, then skidded down the street like a hockey puck.
Damage to it? A slight nick on one corner, and very slight scuffing. If this had been any one of my other cameras - Nikon F, F2, FM, Leicas, Minoltas, Pentaxes etc - it would have just broken parts. I still was really bummed out about my Nikonos because it was in perfect shape. Just immaculate.. Oh well.
Just pick up a Nikonos V - it really feels like a block of steel. An upside is that solid body really muffles the shutter sound. And yeah, you can hammer nails with it if you want. But just get a freakin hammer!...Show more →
Sorry to hear about your Nikonos damage, but not surprised it shrugged off the incident. I just bought a Nikonos III which I hope to start using next summer, and that thing is built like a tank.
I have a similar story with my FE2. When I lived in Copenhagen, I was biking down the highest hill in the city (the "Berg" where the Carlsberg brewery is located), and the rear hub on the bike failed causing it to jam up. I had my FE2 + Nikkor 24/2 in the ever-ready case inside my backpack. I was going at least 30MPH and went flying over the handlebars, did a flip in the air, and landed on my back to slide down the pavement until coming to a stop. I pulled off my backpack and could see all the way to the front element of the lens: The pavement had worn completely through the backpack and the case. When I got home and opened up the case, the glass from the destroyed 52mm filter fell on the floor, but the camera AND the lens were totally fine! I honestly couldn't believe that nothing was damaged.
andrewd01 wrote:
I agree that the FM2N isn’t the last word in durability. Its nothing better than average for advanced consumer grade cameras of its era. I always laugh at the ‘can be used to hammer nails’ argument that some people make about the camera. If you did that you would immediately dent the thin brass covers and probably do internal mechanical damage.
Having said that I would never judge the durability of a camera on its ability to survive a motorcycle crash! Thats not something that would be in the design brief, even for the heavy duty pro cameras. Most of the issues with 30 year old pro cameras is not caused by physical robustness, but the robustness of its electronic circuits, LCD panels and switch gear. ...Show more →
Pound nails?!? Seriously?!?
I never had interest in the FM2 and similar Nikon consumer cameras for their outright durability, I was more interested in their extremely light weight, simple control interface, and the reduced electronics count to minimize the number of things that could go wrong in the field. I carried one next to an N8008 as an extremely lightweight backup as I expected the high tech circuit-laden new camera to be the one that would fail. I thought the compact nature and light weight of the FM2 would make it a good backup.
As it turned out, the plastic camera ended up being more durable in that MC crash. Due to the way things were packaged, and the way that the bike slid on it's side rather than tumbling, the contents of the tank bag never contacted the pavement directly. They just got jostled around enough in the tank bag to bang on one another, and in that bag the fight was won by the plastic N8008 and the metal pro-grade zooms and lost by the flimsy bodied FM2n.
The problem was one of plasticity. The engineering definition of plasticity runs counter to what we think of as the meaning of the term "plastic." In engineering terms "plastic deformation" is the ability of a solid material to undergo permanent deformation after yielding to an external force. The metal body of the FM2n lacked elastic behavior and exhibited plastic behavior; it did not return to it's original shape after minimal stress (elastic behavior) and yielded under the force to undergo permanent deformation (plastic behavior) with comparatively little force applied to it; funny thing, the plastic body N8008 camera and the metal push-pull zooms all exhibited elastic behavior, failed to yield under stress, and exhibited no plastic deformation.
I was surprised at how bad the damage was to the FM2 while everything else just shrugged off the event. The biggest surprise was that the internals (meter, shutter) were undamaged while the flimsy metal body is what yielded to destroy the camera. That "pound nails" idea is just silly. The FM2 body isn't at all durable. The N8008 plastic camera body really was more durable than the flimsy metal one. When it came to designing cameras, Nikon actually knew what they were doing when they changed the body composition to make them more durable. Yes, the FM2 will never be good for pounding nails. It's a flimsy camera, but a wonderful camera nonetheless.
Somehow nostalgia gives us the tendency to remember things as better than they actually were. I think that applies to the FM2 where people tend to over romanticize it.
In terms of durability, my hat is off to Nikon's more modern designs like the D810. I had left mine sitting on a kitchen chair, which when moved caused the camera to roll off of the chair, bounce a couple of times, then tumble down a flight of tile covered stairs into my basement. I was horrified. Luckily the camera was sporting a tiny 20mm AF lens and a battery grip, and the package was "round" enough to just roll down the stairs. I'm sure that if I had been using a longer lens there would have been enough leverage applied during one of the impacts to destroy the F-mount, but with the little 20mm lens there was nothing to catch on, and the camera just tumbled down the stairs without any damage. I hate to admit it, but my D810 has rolled off of a couch or a chair more times than I care to remember. the good thing about short lenses is that they allow the camera to roll without much risk of injury. the good thing about long lenses is that they tend to keep the camera from rolling off of a chair in the first place.
