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Archive 2023 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?

  
 
patotts
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p.3 #1 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


photo558 wrote:
I bought the A7c for its size, weight, supposed good AF performance when it came out and used it excessively since then with Sony's 85mm, 55mm, 35mm, Tamron 70-180mm & several old, manual lenses, in various scenarios.
I can only speak from my own experience, but I would never buy this camera again and here is why.

- The tiny EVF is almost useless, especially in sunny conditions, or situations with contrast and shadow near the frame. What's even worse and totally unacceptable is the fact that with sun at a particular angle behind, the EVF goes completely black and the sun
...Show more

If you want a big and bright EVF, don't go looking at sub-compact cameras. Physically impossible to get you that in a A7C-type design. Also, the camera has 1/8000 shutter in e-shutter, just switch over from mechanical shutter. Regardless, you don't seem to be the target audience for a Sony A7C-style camera so I'm surprised you still own one. There are plenty of people, even pros, that are happy with the pros/cons, e.g.

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Oct 24, 2023 at 08:04 AM
bernardl
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p.3 #2 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?




saaketham wrote:
I've owned and shot with these cameras in the past 2 years - z6ii, z7ii, zfc, z8, z9, a6600, a9, a7R4, a1, a7R5.
My current kit is a1, a7R5, z6ii and Sony lenses with ETZ adapter to use on the z6ii.

- Sony wins by far, it just works without any fuss
- a1 is top notch at BIF - it's an incredible, compact and super-performer body that keeps working without fuss
- a7R5 is incredible at subject identification and sticking on the subject's eyes
- Even the entry level APS-C a6600 and a9 (version 1) are awesome
- Sony's about to drop the a9iii

- I
...Show more

Thanks, a few questions if you don’t mind:

- Is BIF the main genre you practice to asses AF performance?
- What is the last firmware of the Z9 you used the camera with before selling it?

As a former a9II user I use my Z8/Z9 to shoot people in highly demanding situation, dance practices in poorly lit venues with very fast and impreductibke motion. And my hit rate at f1.2 is very high and way higher than what I used to get with my a9II. It’s not even close.

Btw, my hit rate did improve significantly after optimizing the AF settings of both Z8 and Z9.

Thanks.

Regards,
Bernard



Oct 24, 2023 at 10:54 AM
Cliff L.
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p.3 #3 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


CanadaMark wrote:
If it was just your personal opinion then why not qualify it as such, rather than categorically state Sony is unmatched without any real evidence?


I suspect it's because no amount of evidence, no matter how overwhelming, will ever convince some people on this forum that Nikon is not the absolute best at everything.



Oct 24, 2023 at 11:07 AM
saaketham
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p.3 #4 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


bernardl wrote:


Is BIF the main genre you practice to asses AF performance?
Yes. But the z8 also missed focus on a human sitting motionless in a series of images shot in burst mode.
The Eye AF seemed to show the right target area but the resulting images were all focused behind - very obviously.
An osprey diving into a lake - z8 + 800 PF on a tripod/gimbal (not a single usable image).
I did spend an hour shooting fast-moving swallows over a river and got several keepers, but it took a lot of effort.
The z8 was probably doing a good job, but tracking swallows at 800 is not easy, nor was it easy with hummingbirds.
I switched to the a1 + 70-200 and cropped and got decent results - with AF being fast and accurate.

What is the last firmware of the Z9 you used the camera with before selling it?
I only used it for 2 or 3 weeks before realizing it wasn't my thing - due to the size.
The image quality from the z9 was awesome though - using 50 f/1.2, and several adapted Sony lenses including 600 GM.
Between the 2, I'd pick the z9 over the z8 if I only had those 2 as options.

As a former a9II user I use my Z8/Z9 to shoot people in highly demanding situation, dance practices in poorly lit venues with very fast and impreductibke motion.
And my hit rate at f1.2 is very high and way higher than what I used to get with my a9II. It’s not even close.

Yeah, even AF is kinda subjective depending on the subject (no pun meant), lighting, shooting style, handheld vs gimbal, etc.
Glad to hear you're getting good hit rate with z8/z9 - it fits your shooting style better then.
I really wanted to like the z8 - it seemed like the perfect DSLR-style MILC.
But the missed focus on many shots, and the erratic focus in Auto mode turned me off.



Oct 24, 2023 at 11:23 AM
1bwana1
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p.3 #5 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


CanadaMark wrote:
If it was just your personal opinion then why not qualify it as such, rather than categorically state Sony is unmatched without any real evidence?

Nikon's AF is AI based as well, and at least based on Sony's promo video attempting to showcase the AI performance, there is nothing in that video that other cameras can't already do. It looks like it's aimed at A7R4 users trying to get them to upgrade to the 5. Exactly how the AI is used, implemented and processed is not public knowledge, and without knowing that, how can one say if it would be better
...Show more

The entire thread is based on asking people for opinions. Almost every post in these forums is opinion. Many of your posts are opinion. Yet, I rarely see anyone explicitly says so. That includes your posts. I expect that you will uphold that requirement going forward? I guess we will all need a short cut key for this so it won't become too big a typing burden. I expect you will also be living up to your own standard here?

All object identification algorithms depend on o a database of objects to match against. That includes what Nikon refers to as "deep learning". However this is very different than motion based, predictive intelligence which is what Sony is claiming. Yes, they all do things that may look very similar in the viewfinder. In they majority of circumstances they may also produce similar results. The additional advantages from AI Motion AF will likely be seen in the more difficult situations. Where objects are further, smaller, in more cluttered surrounds, or moving in different ways.

What else is Nikon going to say about it's processor when faced with completion that is moving on to AI/AF dedicated processors. They said the same things in the past in their mirrorless line. Then doubled up on processors, which even then couldn't keep up just as you said. As you have pointed out, most things at these levels is not public knowledge.

Sony's marketing is not primarily targeted towards its existing user base. Although the upgrade cycle is important to sales.
Sony tends to be more evangelical in trying to attract new camera buyers, amd motivate people to switch to Sony products. this is how they went from a very low market share in the industry to 2nd overall nad number 1 in FF mirrorless. They stated this as their goal years ago, and have handily accomplished it. It seems to me (IMO ), that Nikon to a large extent is playing the defensive selling to their existing user base strategy for now. It shows up in the way their products are designed, the Zf, Z8,Z9 cameras being a very good example of this. Their stubbornly flat market share in mirrorless seems to confirm that they are not attracting many new customers with their current strategy.




Oct 24, 2023 at 11:30 AM
1bwana1
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p.3 #6 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


molson wrote:
I suspect it's because no amount of evidence, no matter how overwhelming, will ever convince some people on this forum that Nikon is not the absolute best at everything.


That and they don't uphold this standard themselves. There is an actual word for that...



Oct 24, 2023 at 11:32 AM
1bwana1
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p.3 #7 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


bernardl wrote:
As a former a9II user I use my Z8/Z9 to shoot people in highly demanding situation, dance practices in poorly lit venues with very fast and impreductibke motion. And my hit rate at f1.2 is very high and way higher than what I used to get with my a9II. It’s not even close.

Regards,
Bernard


But you are comparing an older design product without Sony's latest AF technology. The A9II will be replaced in the next few weeks it looks like. That is like comparing the Z7II as Nikon's current AF standard.

Sony's new Ai/AF is designed to hit focus on the surface of the eye even wide open. While from my experience and ready many articles and posts the Nikon AF tends to very often hit on eyelash and eyebrow unless the distance and aperture allow for a large enough DOF to include both those and the surface of the eye. On of the small advantages I was speaking about earlier. But when looking through an EVF video of the focus boxes being drawn they will look like they are doing very similar things. As I have said, the differences in technology is getting down to this level of performance detail because they are all so good at the easier stuff.




Oct 24, 2023 at 11:41 AM
JadedWriter
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p.3 #8 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


As usual people in here talking about Sony elitism and I'm just over here churning out work with my plebeian Nikon Z9 and Fuji X-H2S. Oh how do I survive and pay my bills without Sony's AF tech?


Oct 24, 2023 at 11:42 AM
bernardl
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p.3 #9 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


1bwana1 wrote:
That and they don't uphold this standard themselves. There is an actual word for that...


Replace Nikon by Sony in the sentence above and we have a more relevant depiction of what’s happening here…

I only brought up the a9II because of the claim made that even older Sony bodies were superior.

I also notice that the person I replied to based his BIF assessment on an old Z9 firmware he didn’t want to share and what appears to be a single instance of the Z8 missing focus on people.

I note a mention of the Z8/Z9 missing focus on the pupil of the eye by someone not owning either cameras… but this is not what I experience.

Having first hand experience with all of these cameras except the a7rV I know full well that they all miss focus sometimes, including the Z8 and Z9. Sony is far from being as perfect as it is claimed and the Z8/Z9 is an outstanding performer in absolute terms. Now probably as good for BIF, a weak point originally, and still brilliant for people as it always was, which is by far the most important use case all things considered.

Going back the Zf wouldn’t it be reasonable to admit that until we compare the cameras we can’t convey any relevant assessment of it’s AF performance vs other bodies?

Cheers,
Bernard


Edited on Oct 24, 2023 at 11:56 AM · View previous versions



Oct 24, 2023 at 11:51 AM
Spectro
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p.3 #10 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?




JadedWriter wrote:
As usual people in here talking about Sony elitism and I'm just over here churning out work with my plebeian Nikon Z9 and Fuji X-H2S. Oh how do I survive and pay my bills without Sony's AF tech?


Yeah , me too with my Z9 and D5. And after reading this it’s amazing that I spent almost a month in Europe with a Z50! I don’t know how it managed to focus on anything!

One thing is consistent here as demonstrated again in this string. If you read a post in the Nikon Forum, you can bet it will devolve into a fight by page two…



Oct 24, 2023 at 11:54 AM
JadedWriter
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p.3 #11 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


And the most interesting thing is you really don't see me, an ex Sony user diving into a lot of the Sony threads taking a lot of digs at Sony. Meanwhile here it's the usual suspects.
Spectro wrote:
Yeah , me too with my Z9 and D5. And after reading this it’s amazing that I spent almost a month in Europe with a Z50! I don’t know how it managed to focus on anything!

One thing is consistent here as demonstrated again in this string. If you read a post in the Nikon Forum, you can bet it will devolve into a fight by page two…





Oct 24, 2023 at 11:57 AM
JustShootMe
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p.3 #12 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


JadedWriter wrote:
And the most interesting thing is you really don't see me, an ex Sony user diving into a lot of the Sony threads taking a lot of digs at Sony. Meanwhile here it's the usual suspects.



It's the same handful of folks on all the forums too , some just like to argue I guess. Nothing wrong with healthy debate , when it is actually that.



Oct 24, 2023 at 11:59 AM
dalegaspi
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p.3 #13 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


the users who are obvious Sony fanbois continuing to participate in the NIKON forum with a holier-than-thou attitude are fascinating to me.

me personally it's irrelevant if Sony AF is better...the Z9 AF is so good already that i hardly yearn for anything better...but hey that's the Nikon advantage with FIRMWARE UPDATES...



Oct 24, 2023 at 12:07 PM
cvrle59
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p.3 #14 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


This young girl doesn't know much about technical aspects of gear, and she didn't have superior gear when she won first award.
On the other live stream, just recently, she claimed that she doesn't know much about composition rules either, but that doesn't stop her to be so recognized in photography world.
Some may wonder why I'm plugging this here, because I am inspired with her art, and I'm not inspired with discussions like this, but contrast is welcome in photography, I guess...

&t=13s&ab_channel=RachelBigsby



Oct 24, 2023 at 12:09 PM
saaketham
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p.3 #15 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


Do you prefer this?
https://cdn-7.nikon-cdn.com/Images/CPCAssets/pdp/zf/img/intro-six-colors.png

Or this?







Oct 24, 2023 at 12:15 PM
JadedWriter
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p.3 #16 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


I just checked my posting history and yeah, I'm not really in the Sony threads stirring the poop pot. I chime in if I have to to debunk nonsense and will like an image here and there. I have much better things to do with my time that doesn't involve pissing people off.
JustShootMe wrote:
It's the same handful of folks on all the forums too , some just like to argue I guess. Nothing wrong with healthy debate , when it is actually that.





Oct 24, 2023 at 12:19 PM
Cliff L.
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p.3 #17 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?




Replace Nikon by Sony in the sentence above and we have a more relevant depiction of what’s happening here…



That's probably true, but for some reason the Nikon "my brand is the best" bias seems to reach toxic levels on this forum. As much as I like Nikon (my primary camera system), you have to hold your nose to participate in some of these discussions...



Oct 24, 2023 at 12:29 PM
bernardl
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p.3 #18 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


I personally also work with Fuji and P1, find Sony equipment to be excellent.

What I find irritating is the permanent insistance by some that Sony is the measuring stick of camera performance.

I have a lot of respect for the brand but nothing is perfect and I find Nikon to offer a better solution in many ways.

Cheers,
Bernard



Oct 24, 2023 at 12:36 PM
Max Power
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p.3 #19 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?




That's probably true, but for some reason the Nikon "my brand is the best" bias seems to reach toxic levels on this forum. As much as I like Nikon (my primary camera system), you have to hold your nose to participate in some of these discussions...


I think most Nikon users in these forums will tell you they are not the best at everything. I do notice some go on the defensive quite a bit because, well........they kind of have to. If the people who want to talk about Sony all the time would just stick to their own forums, we wouldn't see this defensiveness.

If I ever could be bothered to go to the Sony forum, I would probably not see nearly as much Nikon content over there than we see Sony content here.

I knew right away when I saw this thread it was gonna be a problem and who was going to show up.



Oct 24, 2023 at 12:45 PM
dalegaspi
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p.3 #20 · Nikon Zf or Sony camera?


molson wrote:
That's probably true, but for some reason the Nikon "my brand is the best" bias seems to reach toxic levels on this forum. As much as I like Nikon (my primary camera system), you have to hold your nose to participate in some of these discussions...


...but Nikon is the best brand, tho.




Oct 24, 2023 at 12:53 PM
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