What would be better choice now for family/travel photography - Nikon Zf or Sony body, like A7III, A7C etc
I don't know anything about Nikon system. How's Nikon's autofocus?
Is it better than Sony in anything?
phinix wrote:
What would be better choice now for family/travel photography - Nikon Zf or Sony body, like A7III, A7C etc
I don't know anything about Nikon system. How's Nikon's autofocus?
Is it better than Sony in anything?
The Zf is Nikon's most recent camera and therefore has it's newest AF technology. It seems to be very good.
The Sony A7II, and A7c are older generation Sony cameras. They do have excellent AF, however technology as always marches forward. They and the Zf are likely very close. The latest Sony cameras with the dedicated AI driven AF processors are at an unmatched level in non stacked sensor cameras so far. But, to get that you need to get an A7RV or one of the new A7CII or A7CR cameras. These also have newer, higher resolution Sony sensors than the Zf, which is using an old lower resolution sensor from the Z6 (still very good IQ though).
Really at this point, operated competently, the AF of all of these cameras is amazing. I wouldn't let that be the sole deciding factor. I suggest you go to a store where you can handle each of them. Choose based on the one that you like the ergonomics, lens choices, workflow, and has the looks that appeal to you. They are all going to produce amazing, great images. How much you enjoy the shooting experience should be your highest priority at this time.
Sony doesn't have these issues even in their previous generation cameras. . I much prefer the simple straight forward workflow of the Sony AF system. It just works, and doesn't seem to be as finicky about small things in the workflow as the Nikon cameras.
I'd choose A7C II for family and travel photography. It's smaller and lighter than ZF, and Sony lenses in general are smaller and lighter than Nikon's.
I have ZF and A7R4. The ZF ergo is terrible, lol. It's almost impossible to shoot one hand because there's hardly anything to grip on. If you add an external grip, it destroys the LOOK. Anyway, I still have my FM2n and F3, so ZF was a must buy for me. It's old school Nikon.
I'm also debating between the ZF and the A7Cii/A7CR. I like Nikon due to their color science and also the much wider selection of lenses (because you can easily adapt any Sony lens without adding any significant bulk or weight to it).
But at the end of the day, the much higher resolution sensors and significant weight and size savings is making me lean more towards a Sony.
I would recommend you try each one in the hand. Personally I can't stand the ergonomics on Sony cameras, but a camera that feels good in the hand will give you more enjoyment than one that feels awful no matter the specs.
Agree with previous poster the a7c variants are better for travel especially if it is the a7cii or r. Plus the range of small lightweight lenses is better than for Nikon. The autofocus on the Sonys will I suspect be better too.
For family photos I doubt it matters but the Sony is probably easier to hand off to someone else.
Regardless when I had to make a choice between up grading my a7c or buying the Zf (upgrading my Zfc) I chose the latter. Two things swayed my decision one being the fully mechanical shutter and the other the better viewfinder/ display. The option for a 70-180 f2.8 that takes a Tele converter and is cheaper than the sony 70-200f4 helped a bit too.
As for the camera I like the colours straight out the camera on the Nikon so far and I love the black and white mode.
Both are good cameras - both can take lovely photos.
I did the same equation, I went and tested the Zf on a Nikon day at AD, but I found it to be too heavy, not comfortable without a Smallrig grip (which means a bit more weight and bulk, and money). Most of Nikon Z line lenses will look weird in their minimal+modern design on the Zf. But man, it is a gorgeous camera that makes you want to bring it around :-)
I ordered a Sony A7Cii instead. Better AF (in my view), 33MP sensor, lighter (by 200 gr), smaller, more 3rd party lenses at E mount to choose from. It is not a perfect camera with the small EVF, single card, etc but something I can easily bring on trips. A7CR is an utter overkill for family/travel with 61mp. You simply have to try the Sony autofocus with the new AI chip (I've been using it for close to a year on the A7R5) - it is ridiculously quick, accurate (nails the eye every time, not the eye-lash, etc) and very sticky - I found that invaluable as kids run around, go behind trees, turns around - the AI-driven AF predicts it beautifully and stays on tracking)
Sure, the A7Cii is not a dream to hold in terms of ergos, but let's face it, it is a tool to capture the memories you want. You'll get used to it and focus on what's important - taking good photos and videos.
Now if I was buying a true all-around camera at this point, I'd pick Nikon Z8, but that was not the use case today.
A used A7RV will still be $1K more than the other options.
If you are a photographer that 100% needs a big and bright EVF, then going for the smaller travel cameras might disappoint. I fully expect to have to change my shooting style to get along with the A7Cii - the EVF will be more for framing and composition. I don't expect to be hanging out there and wait for the "decisive moment", which you probably can't see through that little peep-hole. I also expect to have to transition more to shooting of the backscreen, which will be a new experience for me.
Also, with A7R5/A7CR - expect to use the mechanical shutter a lot because the senor readout speed is dreadful. You can't use it even to photograph a kids soccer game. Now, the details, resolution, DR, etc of the sensor are fantastic.
At any rate, the Zf, since this is a Nikon forum, is something you buy with your heart. It is Nikon marketing betting that those of use who used Nikon F-bodies in our youth now have the disposable cash to spend it on an extra camera checking all the nostalgia boxes (or the hipster crowd wanting something along their film cameras). I think and hope it will do well. It is beautifully retro. It will looks great on the table at Café De Flore in Paris next to your cafe au lait, but my main point is that while it is a very compelling modern tech camera (Z8/9 AF, good IBIS, etc) in a retro package, I don't find it to be a great travel camera, if you are looking for something that is small and light.
1bwana1 wrote:
The latest Sony cameras with the dedicated AI driven AF processors are at an unmatched level in non stacked sensor cameras so far. But, to get that you need to get an A7RV or one of the new A7CII or A7CR cameras.
Can you link us to the testing you've seen on this specifically against the Zf? Curious to see it. I was not that impressed with the A74 or A7R5 AF granted I was mostly shooting birds.
CanadaMark wrote:
Can you link us to the testing you've seen on this specifically against the Zf? Curious to see it. I was not that impressed with the A74 or A7R5 AF granted I was mostly shooting birds.
Just do a search on Sony's new AI driven AF processor. The A74 doesn't have it, but the A7V does and there is notable improvement. neither of these cameras is orientated for BIF applications. Neither is the Zf. I doubt many will buy the Zf to do BIF shooting. That is the realm of the stacked sensor cameras. The Zf will also not be a good platform for BIF for the same reasons. However, the benefits of the AI AF processor are very well tested and documented out there. They show that the AF performance of the models that have it approach and even exceed the stacked sensor cameras in many circumstances. Notably the predictive capabilities that greatly increases initial acquisition, re-acquisition, and tracking performance with humans and other subjects. It is amazing in that regard.
As a simple example the Sony AI driven AF can instantly calculate where the eye is on a face even if the eye is hidden by sunglass and other objects. It knows the shape of many subjects and can calculate the eye position. It is much less likely to be fooled int thinking black dots are eyes like some other systems. That coupled with advanced motion predictions make a huge improvement to AI. The Zf has none of that.
A direct comparison to the newly released Zf has not been published yet. They will surely come. However, there are a number of good of reviews out there that do show the Zf AF in action. It is a meaningful advancement from the uncompetitive Z6II/Z7II AF performance. But doesn't approach the level of the stacked sensor cameras even though it implements much of the workflow. The Sony AI/AF processor equipped cameras do in many circumstances.
Here is a nice short video that shows the improvement over previous generations of AF in even when compared to Sony's already industry leading AF.
It is all out there if you care to look.
Now whether this all makes a difference on which camera one selects is another question. My A1 doesn't have this technology. That will come in the A1 II. But the A1 performs at a level that meets or exceeds my needs. I likely wouldn't upgrade for that feature alone. I suspect that the Zf will meet the needs of most, in most circumstances that it will be used in. As I said earlier it is the other things that may be more important to a particular user.
phinix wrote:
What would be better choice now for family/travel photography - Nikon Zf or Sony body, like A7III, A7C etc
I don't know anything about Nikon system. How's Nikon's autofocus?
Is it better than Sony in anything?
For family/travel photography I doubt you’ll notice major differences with af. Pick the one that fits best in your hands.
Something that might be worth mentioning for video - the Sony lenses are really silent whereas the Nikon Z lenses I personally own (28,40,85 Z) have some very slight AF noise that can be audible on the recording. The 28 is pretty quiet.
It's personal preference , just choose the one you will likely lug around. Full frame sounds great until you slap on a monster lens , who wants to carry that around while exploring. A7C is nice and small , but the viewfinder isn't for me. The Sony/Canon AF will be slightly better, but if you aren't shooting at the extremes all brands will be good enough. I would go out to the local camera store and hold them in hand with the lens of choice attached then make a decision.
1bwana1 wrote:
Just do a search on Sony's new AI driven AF processor. The A74 doesn't have it, but the A7V does and there is notable improvement. neither of these cameras is orientated for BIF applications. Neither is the Zf. I doubt many will buy the Zf to do BIF shooting. That is the realm of the stacked sensor cameras. The Zf will also not be a good platform for BIF for the same reasons. However, the benefits of the AI AF processor are very well tested and documented out there. They show that the AF performance of the models that have it approach and even exceed the stacked sensor cameras in many circumstances. Notably the predictive capabilities that greatly increases initial acquisition, re-acquisition, and tracking performance with humans and other subjects. It is amazing in that regard.
As a simple example the Sony AI driven AF can instantly calculate where the eye is on a face even if the eye is hidden by sunglass and other objects. It knows the shape of many subjects and can calculate the eye position. It is much less likely to be fooled int thinking black dots are eyes like some other systems. That coupled with advanced motion predictions make a huge improvement to AI. The Zf has none of that.
A direct comparison to the newly released Zf has not been published yet. They will surely come. However, there are a number of good of reviews out there that do show the Zf AF in action. It is a meaningful advancement from the uncompetitive Z6II/Z7II AF performance. But doesn't approach the level of the stacked sensor cameras even though it implements much of the workflow. The Sony AI/AF processor equipped cameras do in many circumstances.
Here is a nice short video that shows the improvement over previous generations of AF in even when compared to Sony's already industry leading AF.
It is all out there if you care to look.
Now whether this all makes a difference on which camera one selects is another question. My A1 doesn't have this technology. That will come in the A1 II. But the A1 performs at a level that meets or exceeds my needs. I likely wouldn't upgrade for that feature alone. I suspect that the Zf will meet the needs of most, in most circumstances that it will be used in. As I said earlier it is the other things that may be more important to a particular user....Show more →
But it is not a comparison with the Zf, right?
Since you do not have processing power numbers comparing the core processor of the a1 vs the Exceed 7, how can you be certain that the added power of the a7rV core processor + added AF processor is superior to that of the Exceed 7?
I am just curious about the rationale for your claims.
bernardl wrote:
But it is not a comparison with the Zf, right?
As I said I don't expect to find such a comparison at this point. I am guessing more than one will come in the next few Months.
bernardl wrote:
Since you do not have processing power numbers comparing the core processor of the a1 vs the Exceed 7, how can you be certain that the added power of the a7rV core processor + added AF processor is superior to that of the Exceed 7?
I am just curious about the rationale for your claims.
Cheers,
Bernard
But I am not comparing processor power as the only advantage. I am referencing a dedicated AI driven AF processor, that along with a proprietary implementation of of object recognition, motion, and predictive technology, provides meaningful improvements in AF. Sony says is partly derived from it's proprietary competency in digital gaming, which of course Nikon has none of.
The fact that none of us can fill in the unknowns doesn't change what is known. You guys keep wanting to ask the old "prove something doesn't exist" UFO style questions. That can never be answered by us. Myself I am not much interested in hunting Big Foot. But we know many things because they have been demonstrated by it's creator Sony, and broadly tested in the press with great success (note not perfect).
By the way this technology is not just about stills, it is also fully implemented in video on the Sony cameras. I believe that having a dedicated processor to hand that off to is an advantage. There is a link to a demonstration of this in the video I posted above. It is also worth watching.
1bwana1 wrote:
As I said I don't expect to find such a comparison at this point. I am guessing more than one will come in the next few Months.
Sorry maybe I am misunderstanding something then, but you made the comment that the Sony AF was unmatched in the non-stacked realm but you haven't actually seen any testing against the Zf? What am I missing there?
I watched Sony's promo video but I didn't see anything in there that the Z8/Z9 don't already do AF-wise. I don't have a Zf to comment on that though. With Expeed 7 the basic AF performance (subject recognition, etc.) should be very similar to the higher end bodies, albeit with a much slower refresh rate.
