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Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses

  
 
bcaslis
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p.18 #1 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses


Nikon decided (rightly or wrongly) that a shutter is too delicate to use as a sensor shield. The only Nikon cameras with this are the Z8 & Z9 which don't have shutters but have a sensor shield instead.

For sensor cleaning, they are saying you need the camera powered on (which bother me also) but you need to do the same with an M11which costs a lot more.



Nov 13, 2023 at 03:46 PM
pdesopo
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p.18 #2 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses


bcaslis wrote:
Nikon decided (rightly or wrongly) that a shutter is too delicate to use as a sensor shield. The only Nikon cameras with this are the Z8 & Z9 which don't have shutters but have a sensor shield instead.

For sensor cleaning, they are saying you need the camera powered on (which bother me also) but you need to do the same with an M11which costs a lot more.


The camera needs to be on? Where did you find that information? I'm still looking at the manual, but I don't see that part being mentioned.



Nov 13, 2023 at 03:49 PM
akul
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p.18 #3 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses


I did not realize that IBIS on Zf does not lock when turned off. I wonder what the rational behind that was. If it is not locked, when shaken, does it make any sound that suggests sensor is moving around ? I am a bit skeptical that it is not somehow 'stabilized' if not 'locked'..... Wet sensor cleaning is basic and we should be allowed to do so without sending it in. Due to the lack of sensor shield, need for we cleaning is more often than Nikon engineer may be dreaming of.

Luka



Nov 13, 2023 at 04:06 PM
bcaslis
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p.18 #4 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses


Since the IBIS does not lock in the Zf (unlike other cameras) it's going to move when off. You're right I don't see it in the manual, but I'm not sure how you can do a sensor cleaning with the sensor moving around.



Nov 13, 2023 at 04:10 PM
bcaslis
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p.18 #5 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses


akul wrote:
I did not realize that IBIS on Zf does not lock when turned off. I wonder what the rational behind that was. If it is not locked, when shaken, does it make any sound that suggests sensor is moving around ? I am a bit skeptical that it is not somehow 'stabilized' if not 'locked'..... Wet sensor cleaning is basic and we should be allowed to do so without sending it in. Due to the lack of sensor shield, need for we cleaning is more often than Nikon engineer may be dreaming of.

Luka


Yes, when you move the camera you can hear something moving around inside the camera.



Nov 13, 2023 at 04:11 PM
akul
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p.18 #6 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses


bcaslis wrote:
Yes, when you move the camera you can hear something moving around inside the camera.


OH NO. That is wild. Really ? Huh. Hm. Is that the way it will be from now on ? It makes me weary....



Nov 13, 2023 at 04:17 PM
CanadaMark
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p.18 #7 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses


bcaslis wrote:
Nikon decided (rightly or wrongly) that a shutter is too delicate to use as a sensor shield. The only Nikon cameras with this are the Z8 & Z9 which don't have shutters but have a sensor shield instead.

For sensor cleaning, they are saying you need the camera powered on (which bother me also) but you need to do the same with an M11which costs a lot more.


In the case of the Z8/Z9, you want the camera powered off with sensor shield set to stay open when the camera is powered off. Then remove the battery and obviously the lens. In that state, IBIS is parked & locked and it's safe to clean the sensor. Nikon's official recommendation is to never touch the sensor physically yourself and to let their service centers do it because there is more room for error, but everyone has different risk tolerances they're comfortable with.



Nov 13, 2023 at 04:20 PM
pdesopo
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p.18 #8 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses


About the moving IBIS, that was one of my previous questions. I've been told it was indeed the IBIS.

To be honest, that doesn't bother me. I assume that if that's the way they built the camera, other than the wobbling, it should be fine.



Nov 13, 2023 at 04:21 PM
1bwana1
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p.18 #9 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses




bcaslis wrote:
Nikon decided (rightly or wrongly) that a shutter is too delicate to use as a sensor shield. The only Nikon cameras with this are the Z8 & Z9 which don't have shutters but have a sensor shield instead.

For sensor cleaning, they are saying you need the camera powered on (which bother me also) but you need to do the same with an M11which costs a lot more.


The camera being on is one thing. But I have heard that the sensor being activated may statically attract dust and keep it from being blown off.

On the M11 the camera is on to hold the shutter open but the sensor has no power going to it. That is why you must enter a specific program to clean the sensor. The M11 also automatically closes the shutter to protect the sensor any time the lens is removed. Leica must think this important. Does the Zf impliment either of those featuures?



Nov 13, 2023 at 04:31 PM
akul
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p.18 #10 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses


I have a question to folks who has experience with Voigtlander lenses on E mount vs VM. My dilemma is the adapter.

For M-Z, Voigtlander makes an adapter which is not cheap, but coming from Voigtlander, I feel it is trustworthy at least for the hardware is concerned. I do not know this adapter is smart enough requiring frequent firmware update, and if so, how good Cosine is on that aspect. Though, it still feels like I would know how to track information and service down with Voigtlander than many adpters available for E-Z adapters.

For E-Z, we have multiple options, like Techart, Megadap, Fotodiox, etc. So far, however, what I have been hearing the inconsistency of product reliability, and sudden incompatibility from firmware update, etc. making some models not able to function poroperly with the adapters. That makes me not want to go that route so much.

When looking at what I gathered so far, from the adapters point of view, I feel more inclined to search for M version of Voigtlander lenses to be adapted to Z, however, knowing that M lenses are specifically designed to work with Leica's thin sensor glass and the microlens etc, I wonder adapting M versions will not yield the true potential of Voigtlander lenses on Z system. What is your experience of adapting E and M versions to Z cameras, and which one works better There are few lenses on VM version that are interesting to me, such as 90mm Apo Skopar, 21/3.5 Color Skopar, or even the Hyper Wide Heliar 10mm F5.6 Aspherical. The Hyper Wide may just not adapt so well to Z, but intriguing..

Anyway, would love to hear any first hand experience.


Luka



Nov 13, 2023 at 04:37 PM
 


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CanadaMark
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p.18 #11 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses


akul wrote:
I did not realize that IBIS on Zf does not lock when turned off. I wonder what the rational behind that was. If it is not locked, when shaken, does it make any sound that suggests sensor is moving around ? I am a bit skeptical that it is not somehow 'stabilized' if not 'locked'..... Wet sensor cleaning is basic and we should be allowed to do so without sending it in. Due to the lack of sensor shield, need for we cleaning is more often than Nikon engineer may be dreaming of.

Luka


The Z8/Z9 are the only cameras I'm aware of that actually have an IBIS lock. Other cameras allow the sensor to move when in a powered-off state but aside from very early Sony cameras it doesn't seem to be an issue if you don't abuse your gear. The IBIS mechanisms are why most manufacturers recommend you do not wet clean the sensors (or do anything that physically touches them) yourself.

When powered on, IBIS holds your sensor in place with extreme precision using electromagnets similar to voice coil actuators used for seeking in hard drives. When the assembly is not energized, there is nothing to securely hold it in place.

Durability doesn't seem to be a major issue with any other brand/camera that does not park the IBIS, but obviously its better to have a sensor that is locked down when in transit than not. I don't recommend shaking them but you can hear it rattling around if you really want to. Personally I wouldn't take a camera without a locking IBIS mechanism anywhere with extreme or prolonged vibrations, such as on a motorcycle, but that's just my comfort level. Smartphones with IBIS also do not deal well with vibrations and you will often see specific cautions against this in the fine print (again a motorcycle or mountain biking often used as an example of the types of scenarios you want to avoid).



Nov 13, 2023 at 04:41 PM
bcaslis
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p.18 #12 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses


1bwana1 wrote:
The camera being on is one thing. But I have heard that the sensor being activated may statically attract dust and keep it from being blown off.

On the M11 the camera is on to hold the shutter open but the sensor has no power going to it. That is why you must enter a specific program to clean the sensor. The M11 also automatically closes the shutter to protect the sensor any time the lens is removed. Leica must think this important. Does the Zf impliment either of those featuures?


I haven't cleaned the M11 with the new firmware, but when I did before you entered a mode from the menu but you needed to leave the camera on. Did you clean the sensor with the camera turned off? That didn't work when I tried it.

The Zf never closes the shutter with the camera on and not taking a picture, I explained that. You can disagree with the implementation but that is how Nikon does it. Not everyone does what Sony does (thank goodness).



Edited on Nov 13, 2023 at 04:50 PM · View previous versions



Nov 13, 2023 at 04:49 PM
ilkka_nissila
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p.18 #13 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses


AFAIK also the Z6/Z7 series lock the sensor position as well when the camera is turned off. The Zf is to my understanding the first Nikon camera which has in-camera VR and doesn't park the sensor. The Z8/9 seem to also park it when going into the menu and when going from live view to playback mode, and not only when the camera is turned off.

My understanding is that the Zf got a redesigned VR mechanism because the camera is so thin. On the one hand the lock is gone, but there are improvements to the efficacy of the stabilization.

CanadaMark wrote:
The Z8/Z9 are the only cameras I'm aware of that actually have an IBIS lock. Other cameras allow the sensor to move when in a powered-off state but aside from very early Sony cameras it doesn't seem to be an issue if you don't abuse your gear. The IBIS mechanisms are why most manufacturers recommend you do not wet clean the sensors (or do anything that physically touches them) yourself.

When powered on, IBIS holds your sensor in place with extreme precision using electromagnets similar to voice coil actuators used for seeking in hard drives. When the assembly is not energized,
...Show more



Nov 13, 2023 at 04:50 PM
akul
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p.18 #14 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses


CanadaMark wrote:
The Z8/Z9 are the only cameras I'm aware of that actually have an IBIS lock. Other cameras allow the sensor to move when in a powered-off state but aside from very early Sony cameras it doesn't seem to be an issue if you don't abuse your gear. The IBIS mechanisms are why most manufacturers recommend you do not wet clean the sensors (or do anything that physically touches them) yourself.

When powered on, IBIS holds your sensor in place with extreme precision using electromagnets similar to voice coil actuators used for seeking in hard drives. When the assembly is not energized,
...Show more

Whoa. Ok, I did not realize that. Well, I have done wet wipes multiple times with no issues so far. I certainly won't stop doing that, but will be more careful from now on. Thank you for that information.

Luka




Nov 13, 2023 at 04:57 PM
nehemiahphoto
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p.18 #15 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses


I was excited about the zF, then I held one this weekend. Looks lovely, really enjoy the manual buttons and overall look, but uncomfortable to hold and bigger than I would have liked. And if the camera is going to be bigger, I'd hope for a better EVF, a joystick and more comfortable when using. Oh well. I just saved some more money.

And those selfies screens are really annoying.



Nov 13, 2023 at 06:52 PM
1bwana1
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p.18 #16 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses


This sensor cleaning discussion is probably not very meaningful without true insider knowledge. It does seem unreasonable to have to send the camera to the manufacturer to clean od some simple dust spots. I think that this just cannot be true in practice no matter what the manal says.

Lets just say that if the tech at your local camera store can clean the sensor without damaging anything, and without any specialized tool to hold the IBIS still, then it is likely that you can as well. In the end, that is what will really count in your ownership experience.



Nov 13, 2023 at 07:22 PM
pdesopo
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p.18 #17 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses


@1bwana1

I reached out to Nikon again, this time via email.

I asked if the customer is supposed to send the camera to a Nikon technical repair center in case the automatic cleaning didn't get rid of the dust.

Here's their response:
Unfortunately, Yes. We can't advise on any other way, but if what you've done is working, proceed with caution.

To be honest, I'm a little disappointed.
The technical support I called earlier didn't sound like she was an expert at all.

Then comes this confirmation via email.
I understand they want to be crystal clear about the risks involved when cleaning a sensor, but honestly, I never heard of such a strict policy. Or perhaps I never realized Fuji applies the same rule.

I followed up and asked if they could confirm whether the camera needed to be on or off in case of cleaning. They haven't responded yet (not sure they will).




Nov 13, 2023 at 07:39 PM
akul
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p.18 #18 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses


pdesopo wrote:
@1bwana1@

I reached out to Nikon again, this time via email.

I asked if the customer is supposed to send the camera to a Nikon technical repair center in case the automatic cleaning didn't get rid of the dust.

Here's their response:
Unfortunately, Yes. We can't advise on any other way, but if what you've done is working, proceed with caution.

To be honest, I'm a little disappointed.
The technical support I called earlier didn't sound like she was an expert at all.

Then comes this confirmation via email.
I understand they want to be crystal clear about the risks involved when cleaning a sensor, but
...Show more

Chances are that low level service person doesn’t know or even care to know. Last timeI talked to a service person, he was pretty much ‘cookie cutter’ ‘say as my worker’s manual says’ type. No one wants to say anything outside of the given protocol to avoid liability. Too bad.

Luka



Nov 13, 2023 at 09:27 PM
pdesopo
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p.18 #19 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses


akul wrote:
[...]
Chances are that low level service person doesn’t know or even care to know. Last timeI talked to a service person, he was pretty much ‘cookie cutter’ ‘say as my worker’s manual says’ type. No one wants to say anything outside of the given protocol to avoid liability. Too bad.

Luka


Yeah, that makes sense, it's just that I did not expect it as my technical support experience has been only with Fuji, and in that case, it's been excellent.
At the time I needed it, the guy did know what he was talking about and tried his best to help me out.
With Nikon, it felt more like "not much we can do about it, have a good day" type of thing.

Perhaps just different philosophies about technical support between manufacturers.



Nov 13, 2023 at 09:35 PM
Juha Kannisto
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p.18 #20 · Nikon Zf as a platform for adapted/native manual focus lenses


akul wrote:
I have a question to folks who has experience with Voigtlander lenses on E mount vs VM. My dilemma is the adapter.

For M-Z, Voigtlander makes an adapter which is not cheap, but coming from Voigtlander, I feel it is trustworthy at least for the hardware is concerned. I do not know this adapter is smart enough requiring frequent firmware update, and if so, how good Cosine is on that aspect. Though, it still feels like I would know how to track information and service down with Voigtlander than many adpters available for E-Z adapters.

For E-Z, we have multiple
...Show more

Cosina Voigtländer M-Z adapter doesn't have any electronics in it so it's not going to need any firmware updates, it's a dumb adapter without any contacts. It has the close-focus helicoid which makes it useful for improving the minimum focus distance, but the adapter is also fairly heavy at 105g.

https://www.cosina.co.jp/voigtlander/en/accessories/vm-z-close-focus-adapter/

If the helicoid is not must-have, I'd also look into other M-Z adapters such a Rayqual LM-NZ:
https://www.rayqual.com/NikonZ.html

I use mostly Rayqual adapters for M-E, M-X, M-L and C/Y-E and I think they are the best ones out there for spec-accurate thickness and quality but they don't come with close focus helicoids. I also use CV M-E close focus adapter II, which is also of very high quality. It's a little thinner at infinity locked position so most lenses can't be used at hard infinity without adjusting the focus on the lens or the adapter.

As I don't have a Z camera can't really comment on the specifics of adapting M-mount lenses vs. E-mount lenses to Z. I think 90/2.8 VM and 21/3.5 VM should adapt pretty well though. I have 90/2.8 VM and 21/3.5 E-mount version personally. I'm a bit of CV enthusiast and I currently have 29 of their lenses across E-mount, X-mount, VM and LTM.

I would avoid adapting APO Lanthars from M to Z at least as the M-mount versions are reported to work much worse on E when compared to the native E-mount versions.



Nov 13, 2023 at 09:50 PM
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