p.1 #1 · New to Leica: Questions Regarding 28mm and 40mm
Hi everyone. I’ve never been a big fan of SLRs, so I haven’t enjoyed 35mm film all that much so far. I really enjoy my medium format rangefinder, so I want to go that route with 35mm film. My favorite focal length is 80mm on my 6x7, so that means the closest thing is 40mm. I see that the Leica/Minolta 40mm f/2 is highly regarded, and would be my choice if I went that way. I also love 28mm. For me, 35mm has always felt like a boring compromise and 50mm is too tight. For some reason 28mm and 40mm is more my style.
I have been looking at the M5 for a number of reasons. The biggest drawback to me is that it doesn’t have frame lines for 28mm (and 40mm). Well that, and it is hard to repair or service. Anyone have any experience shooting those lenses with an M camera?
I have read that the 35mm lines are very close to 40mm, and Leica measures them with a little wiggle room. Any truth to that? Also, the pictures I have seen of the standard viewfinder shows that the 28mm lines are right up to the edge. Are the frame lines really important since it is at the edge of sight anyways?
I don’t really have the budget to reach for the M6, and I would rather have the M5 spot meter anyway. Are these focal lengths really viable for an M5? Thank you all for your thoughts!
p.1 #2 · New to Leica: Questions Regarding 28mm and 40mm
Some M5s have the 28mm frame lines. They don't start out that way, but the M5 is notorious for rf delamination - tell tale sign is tear/rain drop like marks on the RF patch. If/when that fails - it did on mine - the repair includes replacing the frame line set. As the original for the M5 is no longer available, techs often use those from the current MP.
Which is how my M5 has frame lines that include the 28mm. It's not an ideal camera to use w 28s as the frame lines are right out at the edges, but it has them.
As for 40mm, I basically frame for it between the 35 and 50 frame lines - you can preview that by moving the frame line selector lever - and it has worked great.
I use a bunch of 40mm lenses on my Ms, including the Summicron 40 (similar to the Minolta), the CV 40mm 2.8 and the CV 40 1.2. They all work great, but the Summicron is very easy to get to flare in a bad way if the sun is just out of frame. It gets the kind of flare that ruins an image as it looks like a flamethrower is blowing across it.
The CVs - especially the 40 2.8 - laugh in the face of flare. Downside with the 2.8 is the aperture ring rotates when you focus, so you need to set aperture first, then focus.
As the M5 is a husky camera, bigger lenses handle great on it, which is why I like using the 40 1.2 on it.
For repair? Jadon at Red Dot Repair works on them. I originally had Sherry Krauter/Goldentouch work on mine, but she messed it up and DAG had to fix it. DAG however apparently does not touch them anymore.
p.1 #3 · New to Leica: Questions Regarding 28mm and 40mm
I don't have the M5 / film bodies. But, I do have the 40 Cron, and while the frame lines are not set for 40 ... I can bring up either the 35 or 50 and just make the mental adjustment whether I prefer to shoot looser or tighter than a given frame line.
As to the 28 vs. the edge ... similar mental adjustment.
Bear in mind, it's been my (historical) nature to be an uber-precision shooter, but I've found that "I'm over it" ... in certain regard after shooting my 40 for a bit.
As to the flare on the 40 cron ... it can be a wicked good effect or wicked not so good aberration, depending on how you play it. You just kinda learn to understand if you're in lighting that will produce it or not. Of course, shooting on film, you don't have a preview option like on digital, so it might be a bit more challenging to "study" its effect.
+1 at how it's kinda "weird" that you can like a 40 (or 45), but not like a 35 or 50 as much. Wish there were more 40 / 45 options. I've got my cron, but Huss (above) has quite the experience with them.
p.1 #5 · New to Leica: Questions Regarding 28mm and 40mm
When I had my M6ttl the 35mm frame was quite innacurate, showed less than than was recorded on the film. Comparison with a 40mm Voigtlander Ultron on my Nikon FM2 showed that the M6 35 frame was actually pretty accurate for 40mm. I think any Leica with 0.72x finder with 28mm frame would be the same. As others have said, if you want an M5 with those frames it will had to have had a replacement finder,
M5 seems to beca tricky one to get repaired now, too many unique parts!
Gerry
Oct 08, 2023 at 01:39 AM
mahimihi Offline • [X]
p.1 #6 · New to Leica: Questions Regarding 28mm and 40mm
An M5 is the worst one you can buy. And it looks terrible also. It looks like a blind engineer with mental problems designed it.
Get an M4-P.
To answer about 28mm frame lines at 0.72x. They’re very hard to see. You’ll have to shove your eye right in the viewfinder to see all of it at once. If you wear glasses you won’t see them. Whether that’s important or not is up to how you shoot. They’re too annoying for me so I shoot 35 and 50. You shoot 28 and 40. One is uncomfortably too much at the edges and the other doesn’t exist so you’ll have to guesstimate with 35mm frame lines.
If you want 100% accuracy then get a mirrorless camera with an EVF. You can’t have it with a rangefinder. Sorry.
About lens flare. The only way a flare ruins the image is when you don’t know how to use your lens. We have a lot of lens collectors here. They have every lens ever made by anyone who makes lenses for the Leica M. They probably have a large closet filled with lenses. I only own 2 lenses at any one time. I really use them a lot and know them. My 50mm flares and I use the flare to my advantage. I can predict when and how it will flare. It has to do with how you use your lens and how well you know the lens.
If a flare ruins your image it means you don’t know this lens well.
As to which 40mm to get, get the Voigtlander 40f1.4 Nokton classic.
Also there is no such thing as a “boring” lens. If your image is boring don’t blame the lens. 5mm really doesn’t make that much of a difference, which is why you can guess a 40mm with 35mm frame lines.
From my experience shooting Leica 28-35-50 I feel the best most comfortable frame lines to shoot are 35mm & 50mm.
p.1 #7 · New to Leica: Questions Regarding 28mm and 40mm
If you don't mind using an external viewfinder, any of the earlier M film cameras without 28mm framelines would work. Also note that the Minolta CLE has 28 and 40mm framelines so that's an alternative to consider for your particular preferences. It takes M-mount lenses. You may have to replace the light seals, and it has an electronic shutter so it's not a fully mechanical camera.
I use the Voigtländer brightline 28mm viewfinder when I am shooting with a 28mm lens on my M2R and it's a wonderful experience. You focus with the rangefinder and use the bright, sharp, beautiful viewfinder to frame. I love looking through that viewfinder.
p.1 #8 · New to Leica: Questions Regarding 28mm and 40mm
What you have to understand is that framing with a Leica is an approximate thing. Treat it like that and you won't mind using the whole viewfinder for 28mm and the 50mm framelines that most 40mm lenses bring up (they do not bring up the 35!).
In general, let go of SLR mindset of exact framing. After a couple of rolls with each lens you'll just know what you're getting.
p.1 #9 · New to Leica: Questions Regarding 28mm and 40mm
Appreciate the info! It is hard enough finding a good copy of the M5, and I haven’t seen one with an upgraded rangefinder yet. I guess if I had all of that done, I’d probably hold onto it. Funny, I have read more stories about DAG messing up and hard to deal with and Sherry fixing it. Thanks for the tip about Red Dot, I’ll have to save that info.
Desmolicious wrote:
Some M5s have the 28mm frame lines. They don't start out that way, but the M5 is notorious for rf delamination - tell tale sign is tear/rain drop like marks on the RF patch. If/when that fails - it did on mine - the repair includes replacing the frame line set. As the original for the M5 is no longer available, techs often use those from the current MP.
Which is how my M5 has frame lines that include the 28mm. It's not an ideal camera to use w 28s as the frame lines are right out at the edges, but it has them.
As for 40mm, I basically frame for it between the 35 and 50 frame lines - you can preview that by moving the frame line selector lever - and it has worked great.
I use a bunch of 40mm lenses on my Ms, including the Summicron 40 (similar to the Minolta), the CV 40mm 2.8 and the CV 40 1.2. They all work great, but the Summicron is very easy to get to flare in a bad way if the sun is just out of frame. It gets the kind of flare that ruins an image as it looks like a flamethrower is blowing across it.
The CVs - especially the 40 2.8 - laugh in the face of flare. Downside with the 2.8 is the aperture ring rotates when you focus, so you need to set aperture first, then focus.
As the M5 is a husky camera, bigger lenses handle great on it, which is why I like using the 40 1.2 on it.
For repair? Jadon at Red Dot Repair works on them. I originally had Sherry Krauter/Goldentouch work on mine, but she messed it up and DAG had to fix it. DAG however apparently does not touch them anymore....Show more →
p.1 #10 · New to Leica: Questions Regarding 28mm and 40mm
Love that first shot. Yeah, it’s definitely a look, for better or worse. I know the Minolta has a later multi coated version, so hopefully that might reign in the flare.
Desmolicious wrote:
Leica M4-2 w Summicron 40. Same roll of film - cool flare vs ruin your image flare:
p.1 #11 · New to Leica: Questions Regarding 28mm and 40mm
panos.v wrote:
What you have to understand is that framing with a Leica is an approximate thing. Treat it like that and you won't mind using the whole viewfinder for 28mm and the 50mm framelines that most 40mm lenses bring up (they do not bring up the 35!).
In general, let go of SLR mindset of exact framing. After a couple of rolls with each lens you'll just know what you're getting.
It may not be exact like an EVF, but it’s pretty darn close to exactly what you framed. It’s not always 100% exact of course.
p.1 #12 · New to Leica: Questions Regarding 28mm and 40mm
Thanks, but I will only get another external viewfinder if it is a special lens I must have. Otherwise it is a bit of a pain IMO. I have one for my 43mm on my Mamiya 7. It might be my favorite lens, but it is a little bit of a hassle. So from personal experience, I’d rather avoid it and am willing to guesstimate as long as it’s feasible. The M5 has features that are more important to me than the CLE, even though it looks like a good camera.
bjhurley wrote:
If you don't mind using an external viewfinder, any of the earlier M film cameras without 28mm framelines would work. Also note that the Minolta CLE has 28 and 40mm framelines so that's an alternative to consider for your particular preferences. It takes M-mount lenses. You may have to replace the light seals, and it has an electronic shutter so it's not a fully mechanical camera.
I use the Voigtländer brightline 28mm viewfinder when I am shooting with a 28mm lens on my M2R and it's a wonderful experience. You focus with the rangefinder and use the bright, sharp, beautiful viewfinder to frame. I love looking through that viewfinder....Show more →
p.1 #13 · New to Leica: Questions Regarding 28mm and 40mm
legionarius wrote:
Thanks, but I will only get another external viewfinder if it is a special lens I must have. Otherwise it is a bit of a pain IMO.
Agreed, although the experience of looking through that Voigtländer brightline viewfinder is the best viewing experience I've ever had on any camera, any analog viewfinder, or any EVF, so for me it ends up being worth the hassle. There's something about that view that I find downright exhiliarating; I've had other people look through it as well and they always give a little gasp. It's so sharp and bright; I wish the resulting photos looked just like that but of course they never do. :-)
p.1 #14 · New to Leica: Questions Regarding 28mm and 40mm
Thanks, but I understand the rangefinder mindset. I use mine all the time. I’m just looking for people’s personal experience with 40 on the M’s and what they use as a jumping off point. Some seem to think the 35mm lines are closer, some say they use a loose 50mm. It isn’t precise, but rangefinders aren’t by nature. However, some people have experience with 40mm on Leicas and can give guidance from their perspective. That’s what I am looking for.
panos.v wrote:
What you have to understand is that framing with a Leica is an approximate thing. Treat it like that and you won't mind using the whole viewfinder for 28mm and the 50mm framelines that most 40mm lenses bring up (they do not bring up the 35!).
In general, let go of SLR mindset of exact framing. After a couple of rolls with each lens you'll just know what you're getting.
p.1 #15 · New to Leica: Questions Regarding 28mm and 40mm
Gerry, thanks! This is exactly the perspective I am looking for. I know that framing on rangefinders isn’t that precise, but personal experience can show the best jumping off point.
gyoung143 wrote:
When I had my M6ttl the 35mm frame was quite innacurate, showed less than than was recorded on the film. Comparison with a 40mm Voigtlander Ultron on my Nikon FM2 showed that the M6 35 frame was actually pretty accurate for 40mm. I think any Leica with 0.72x finder with 28mm frame would be the same. As others have said, if you want an M5 with those frames it will had to have had a replacement finder,
M5 seems to beca tricky one to get repaired now, too many unique parts!
p.1 #16 · New to Leica: Questions Regarding 28mm and 40mm
bjhurley wrote:
Agreed, although the experience of looking through that Voigtländer brightline viewfinder is the best viewing experience I've ever had on any camera, any analog viewfinder, or any EVF, so for me it ends up being worth the hassle. There's something about that view that I find downright exhiliarating; I've had other people look through it as well and they always give a little gasp. It's so sharp and bright; I wish the resulting photos looked just like that but of course they never do. :-)
I have a Voigtlander 28/35 finder on the M3, for when I used 28 or the aspheric 35 in place of my goggled one. And regularly used 21 finder of course. I've got finders from 15 to 135, plus quite a few multifinders, to use on a III, which I also used on smal. Digital until I bought an XPro2. I never heard anyone rhapsodising about them before :-), useful they are, but not as nice as the camera's own brightline frame finder IMHO
p.1 #17 · New to Leica: Questions Regarding 28mm and 40mm
legionarius wrote:
Love that first shot. Yeah, it’s definitely a look, for better or worse. I know the Minolta has a later multi coated version, so hopefully that might reign in the flare.
Fyi with the second flare pic, the lens had a hood on it and I did NOT have a filter on it.
The link has a mix of lenses that includes the 40 Cron. #28 is the obvious 40 Cron showing its flare capability, along with my intentional placement of its location in the frame. There are others in the collection that are shot with the 40 Cron which have no flare in play.
In that regard, the flare can be applied and avoided, yet there may be instances where you have no control over it. Without being able to see it (TTL), it would take some getting used to knowing how it reacts to different lighting conditions / orientation.
p.1 #19 · New to Leica: Questions Regarding 28mm and 40mm
You also have to understand that just because the lens says 40mm on it, it may be more, it may be less. So the only thing to do is try it. It’s not like a 40 on an SLR where is doesn’t actually matter because you are viewing the final result if you have a 100% finder like on an F3.
All my 40s have different actual focal lengths. Also forgot to mention my favorite 40 - the Rollei 40 2.8. Just a lovely lens with fantastic coatings.
Here are uncropped images showing the difference in focal lengths (and colour temp) between my Rollei 40 and my Cv 40 2.8:
Someone above mentioned it’s better to only have one lens and know how it handles - well it is better to have many lenses and know how they handle so you can pick the right tool for the job.
Another 40 Cron flare image with creative application, by intent.
I would imagine that with film, it would be difficult to "place" the flare where you want it. With the EVF, I have the option to put the flare in the scene where I want it. I don't know that I'd have that much control over it via the RF only (without a TTL view).
