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Archive 2023 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?

  
 
suteetat
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p.4 #1 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


1bwana1 wrote:
None of those expensive watches can keep time as accurately or reliably as a very inexpensive Quartz watch. Never mind the usefulness of the complications the software based watches can preform. No car without software can match performance. Almost anything we do today is better with software and relies on it heavily. Why relegate camera systems to such limitations. Especially when talking about digital based cameras. Last time I looked Nikon doesn't make an analog Z mount camera.

Given approximately equal IQ results, size and weight are very important to me these days. They affect every second you I use a
...Show more

Optical lens is being apprciated because of optical design, quality of glasses etc. I don't see anybody praise any lense for superb software correction and manipulation.
Praising one lens for being better than another because of lens correction or software manipulation just does sound right to me. Lens is first an foremost a mechanical optical component.

I mentioned mechanical watches because this is where it is very obvious that craftmanship outweight any desire for most accurate time keeping and good enough is enough. Lenses are a bit different in that we value performance as well but not dissimilar to mechanical watch, optical mechanism also matters. Smartphone went to the other extreme as it is all software and very little room for true optical performance.




Aug 31, 2023 at 07:25 PM
chez
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p.4 #2 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


suteetat wrote:
Optical lens is being apprciated because of optical design, quality of glasses etc. I don't see anybody praise any lense for superb software correction and manipulation.
Praising one lens for being better than another because of lens correction or software manipulation just does sound right to me. Lens is first an foremost a mechanical optical component.

I mentioned mechanical watches because this is where it is very obvious that craftmanship outweight any desire for most accurate time keeping and good enough is enough. Lenses are a bit different in that we value performance as well but not dissimilar to mechanical
...Show more

I see many praise lenses for their final results, not how hard the engineers had to work at the design. I also see many praise their lenses for their size and weight. Looking at the Sony 300 2.8 anticipation, it’s the weight of that lens that is being talked about.



Aug 31, 2023 at 08:13 PM
swifty168
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p.4 #3 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


The fact that Sony is bringing out superb lenses is not really a comparative tool in a discussion between different mounts.
It’s just proof that a) Sony E mount is a very versatile mount and more importantly b) the engineers there have done a hell of an awesome job.
A comparison of mounts is via its attributes and only provides a theoretical framework for potential that is unrealised until someone can take advantage of it. It’s a bit like saying Nikon has a slightly bigger piece of canvas to work with but the art still needs to be produced. If the objective is to make a circular piece of artwork, the extra canvas size advantage doesn’t come into effect. If they can use the extra canvas, the artwork still needs judged on the artwork itself and not on the extra canvas bit.
What some people have gotten into their heads is that a superior mount automatically results in a superior lens in every design and all the time which is of course not true at all.

If you have to do a comparison using actual lenses it’s better to do it within the same manufacturers since you have somewhat equalised the resources available and just isolated the mount difference. Here the Z mounts pretty much solidly beats a comparable F-mount counterpart largely because the mount flexibility discrepancy is much larger. So it seems like a no-brainer why a Z mount was ‘necessary’ on a pragmatic level.



Aug 31, 2023 at 08:44 PM
suteetat
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p.4 #4 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


chez wrote:
I see many praise lenses for their final results, not how hard the engineers had to work at the design. I also see many praise their lenses for their size and weight. Looking at the Sony 300 2.8 anticipation, it’s the weight of that lens that is being talked about.


Yes, in the past final result pretty much equated to excellent optical design. Now a day, lens correction is creeping in but
it has always been in the background and unobtrusive. The way Sony handle focus breathing brings lens correction into the front
and in time, this may become a common place. However, that does not diminish a well design lens that require less correction.
Leica is being praised for its engineering just as much as final result, is it not?

Sony 300/2.8 should be the lightest in class. If it is not, Sony should just give up. When did Nikon release 300/2.8 VR ii?
When was the last time Canon release a new 300/2.8?. Now, if Sony 300/2.8 weight reduction is in line with its latest 70-200/2.8 over its competition, that could be interesting. If its weight reduction is inline with Nikon 400/2.8 VR ii to 400/2.8S TC, not so much. And while still waiting, Nikon shooter is really enjoying 400/4.5, 800PF, not to mention 300PF, 500PF for years now.




Aug 31, 2023 at 08:44 PM
1bwana1
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p.4 #5 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


suteetat wrote:
Optical lens is being apprciated because of optical design, quality of glasses etc. I don't see anybody praise any lense for superb software correction and manipulation.
Praising one lens for being better than another because of lens correction or software manipulation just does sound right to me. Lens is first an foremost a mechanical optical component.




Lenses are properly appreciated for the resultant image quality, focus speed, and reliability. Everything else is just marketing. Something I have been proven not to be immune from judging by my appreciation of the Leica M system which I do own and use daily. I will say that this largely based on the shooting experience, which I enjoy very much.

Same with expensive watches. I have never been motivated to buy one. However, I lusted after the Rolex Daytona for some years. I would never buy one. But, Rolex gives you one when you win the 24 Hours of Daytona race. I wanted that watch for the experience and accomplishment. Disappointedly, it never happened though. But I got close a couple of times. Just last Month one of my business partners offered to give me his gold Rolex Daytona. I declined. Not the way I wanted to acquire that watch.

For me, life is about experiences in the end.


Edited on Aug 31, 2023 at 09:28 PM · View previous versions



Aug 31, 2023 at 08:59 PM
Jman13
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p.4 #6 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


suteetat wrote:
When was the last time Canon release a new 300/2.8?.


Canon isn't going to release a new 300/2.8. They effectively replaced the prime with their new RF 100-300mm f/2.8L.



Aug 31, 2023 at 09:00 PM
1bwana1
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p.4 #7 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


suteetat wrote:
Yes, in the past final result pretty much equated to excellent optical design. Now a day, lens correction is creeping in but
it has always been in the background and unobtrusive. The way Sony handle focus breathing brings lens correction into the front
and in time, this may become a common place. However, that does not diminish a well design lens that require less correction.
Leica is being praised for its engineering just as much as final result, is it not?


But like all manufactures currently Leica achieves its result not solely based on optical design. To address the question posed in this thread it should be noted that Leica has possibly the smallest FF mount in the industry. Leica could have designed a larger mount but it wasn't required to achieve their Noctilux and APO lenses. Leica designs very advanced asymmetrical micro lenses into its sensor stack to fix some optical issues. leica also relies on its Maestro processing engine to apply software corrections in camera. Leica doesn't provide electric contacts for its M lenses. So no in lens processing. But it does have a six bit scanning system so that the camera knows what lens is mounted to apply the proper software corrections. The software corrections made in the Leica Q (1,2,3) cameras may be some of the largest in the industry. It is said that optically the lens is only 24mm and software corrects that to 28mm along with lots of other corrections. The end result is legendary image quality. Those images are stunning!

There is a lot of marketing and product positioning at Leica for sure. Don't forget that produce premium priced limited edition cameras based entirely on colors, and celebrity affiliation.

suteetat wrote:
And while still waiting, Nikon shooter is really enjoying 400/4.5, 800PF, not to mention 300PF, 500PF for years now.


I always find this line of logic from Nikon shooters entertaining. They never applied this type of thinking to stacked sensor mirrorless cameras with very advanced AF & AI (still way better) which other brands have been selling for many years and Nikon is just now getting. All of this stuff goes both ways at various times. We just need to decide which way works for our needs at any moment in time.

The Nikon 58mm 0.95 is s very special lens optically. We all respect that. But its price and size make it hardly relevant to the camera industry. It really is a product driven by the marketing department as part of the larger mount propaganda campaign. That doesn't change the superior results it gives those that own one however. Other manufactures have openly stated that they could produce the same lens for their mounts. However, they see no need or financial incentive to do so. Nikon had a different reputational need at the beginning of the Z mount line of cameras that drove this lens's development. It was never a meant to be financially meaningful product.




Aug 31, 2023 at 09:24 PM
suteetat
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p.4 #8 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


1bwana1 wrote:
Lenses are properly appreciated for the resultant image quality, focus speed, and reliability. Everything else is just marketing. Something I have been proven not to be immune from judging by my appreciation of the Leica M system which I do own and use daily. I will say that this largely based on the shooting experience, which I enjoy very much.

Same with expensive watches. I have never been motivated to buy one. However, I lusted after the Rolex Daytona for some years. I would never buy one. But, Rolex gives you one when you win the 24 Hours of Daytona
...Show more

True, I enjoy my 50/2 apo very much and appreciated it for the size, compactness, smooth mechanical touch and superb image quality. But I do contribute that as much to its engineering capability that they were able to deliver such product.
I sold my 35/1.4 AA awhile ago. As much as I like the rendering and enjoy the whole story of its creation,
I am just not that comfortable walking around with it and use it on daily basis knowing how clumsy I am and that most
of my lenses ended up with scratches all over the place. So when an opportunity arise to get rid of it and made about 50% profit, I did not hesitate My 50/2 apo has so many ding on it that I am not worry about reselling value anymore

I mentioned watches but I am glad I never got into it. I bought an IWC once years ago and it sat in my cabinet now and I
have not use it in years and just prefer to use smart watches now. I do appreciate their quality but just rather spend my money
on traveling and other vices more







Aug 31, 2023 at 09:27 PM
suteetat
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p.4 #9 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


1bwana1 wrote:
But like all manufactures currently Leica achieves its result not solely based on optical design. To address the question posed in this thread it should be noted that Leica has possibly the smallest FF mount in the industry. Leica could have designed a larger mount but it wasn't required to achieve their Noctilux and APO lenses. Leica designs very advanced asymmetrical micro lenses into its sensor stack to fix some optical issues. leica also relies on its Maestro processing engine to apply software corrections in camera. Leica doesn't provide electric contacts for its M lenses. So no in lens processing.
...Show more

This is one very annoying thing about Nikon, I have to admit. I am not sure who came out with subject recognition first but
Nikon implemented subject recognition very very early on. D810 has facial recognition in live view mode but I don't think
they promoted it much and did not really do anything more about it until Sony really showed that it is not a gimmick.
Kind of like pdaf, they used it in Nikon 1 and Nikon really had a heads tart in the technology but then decided not to do anything about it until its competition took it and showed how good it really is.

I agree that all Leica lens have lens correction but at least on M mount when using Sony or Nikon camera, you can see the effect of lens correction and it is not huge. I can't tell on Leica Q, how a lot of lens correction translate to what Sony or Nikon uses, who uses more or less.




Aug 31, 2023 at 09:39 PM
AcuteShadows
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p.4 #10 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


1bwana1 wrote:
Interestingly, the guys from PetaPixel discussed the lens mount issue in this video released this week. Plenty of criticism for Sony in this one. But not when it comes to the Sony lenses, their design and performance.

They labeled the Nikon mount story as marketing "propaganda", as is being proven by the fact that Sony is making lenses that are optically equal, or superior, while being smaller and lighter. They are surprised that people out there are still believing, and spreading the Nikon marketing story. After intensive testing and comparing lenses, they believe the Sony 2.8 "trinity" zooms are the best
...Show more

I'm not sure what actual insights these guys can provide. I see no indication that they have a grasp of optics as a field of physics.

Can you provide a statement from Nikon saying that the Z mount specifically makes *smaller* lenses possible? I haven't found one.

Actually, some of the smallest full frame Z mount lenses produced by Nikon do not make use of the full diameter of the Z mount. Also, the trinity lenses make no use or only limited use of the Z mount diameter.

At the same time, the new budget f/2.8 zooms show that smaller lenses are possible and that the size of the f/2.8 trinity zooms is a choice, not a necessity (Nikon is probably capable of producing the same optical designs as Tamron does, if it would not choose to adapt Tamron lenses).

The Z mount is apparently necessary, or at least beneficial, for only a smaller number of lenses, such as the 50mm f/1.2 S or the small 40mm f/2 lens. It is not useful to talk about the size of lenses that do not make use of the Z mount diameter when discussing the properties of the mount. And for those lenses that actually make use of the Z mount diameter - these often actually have to be rather bigger, so that the lens itself does not become the limiting factor with regard to vignetting.

Looking at some of the Z mount lenses gives the following results, showing that the larger Z mount diameter is by no means used by all of the Nikkor Z lenses.

These small lenses make use of the larger diameter:

https://www.cameralabs.com/nikon-z-40mm-f2-review/
https://www.cameralabs.com/nikon-z-28mm-f2-8-review/

These small lenses *do not* make use of the larger diameter:

https://www.cameralabs.com/nikon-z-26mm-f2-8-review/
https://www.cameralabs.com/nikon-z-mc-50mm-f2-8-review/
https://www.cameralabs.com/nikon-z-24-50mm-f4-6-3-review/

These larger (or not small) lenses make use of the larger diameter:

https://www.cameralabs.com/nikon-z-50mm-f1-2-s-review/
https://www.cameralabs.com/nikon-z-85mm-f1-2-s-review/
https://www.cameralabs.com/nikon-z-50mm-f1-8s-review/

These larger lenses do not make use of the larger diameter:

https://www.cameralabs.com/nikon-z-14-24mm-f2-8-s-review/
https://www.cameralabs.com/nikon-z-24-70mm-f2-8-s-review/ (does not use the full diameter)




Aug 31, 2023 at 10:03 PM
1bwana1
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p.4 #11 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


AcuteShadows wrote:
Can you provide a statement from Nikon saying that the Z mount specifically makes *smaller* lenses possible? I haven't found one.



I actually attended multiple events put on by Nikon on release of the Z system. They were constantly propagandizing the advantage of the Z mount in producing a smaller, lighter camera system. Including smaller bodies and lenses. Nikon has frequently said that the big Z mount, and short flange distance makes it possible to design fast lenses smaller.

In this Nikon video the Nikon Optical Engineer makes similar claims multiple times. He even says that the big Z mount makes producing wider aperture lenses possible. Of course we all know that this is not true as evidenced by other manufactures making such lenses at fractional sizes to the Z lenses.

&t=305s

In practice Nikon has not chosen to follow the smaller/lighter path for their own reasons. Their Z mount cameras and lenses tend to be on the larger size in respective categories when compared to the competition.

Leica makes a 50mm 0.95 Noctlux lens that only measures 2.9" X 3.0" for it's very small mount. The lens weighs only 1.5lbs despite being milled out of heavy brass.

The Nikon Noct measures nearly double at 4.02" X 6.02" and weighing an incredible 4.4 lbs.

Both lenses are manual focus.

Other manufactures make M lenses that are very fast and small also. It is because the leica system including sensor design makes this possible.

As I have been saying all along, the big sizes of lenses are really more about AF/Stabilization/Electronics that optical design. This was proved many years ago. I have also said that I believe Nikon will be able to design small, light, high performance Z mount lenses when they decide to do it. The sizing of the Z mount was a choice not a requirement. It doesn't limit what Nikon will eventually choose to produce. It is a fully competitive mount. It has yet to prove that it is a superior mount.




Aug 31, 2023 at 11:04 PM
1bwana1
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p.4 #12 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


suteetat wrote:
I agree that all Leica lens have lens correction but at least on M mount when using Sony or Nikon camera, you can see the effect of lens correction and it is not huge. I can't tell on Leica Q, how a lot of lens correction translate to what Sony or Nikon uses, who uses more or less.



My experience is that I am not happy with many of the Leica M lenses on unmodified Sony and Nikon sensors. The small leica lenses preform so well because they are part of a very intricate optical system. I notice degradation when used outside of that system.

Software correction is a basic part of optics these days. In the past it was often applied in post. But modern technology has made it so that it can now be applied in camera. That is a good thing. Once again, all that really matters is the IQ of the finished product. We have just begun to see how profoundly software will impact and improve visual content in the future.



Aug 31, 2023 at 11:11 PM
AcuteShadows
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p.4 #13 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


1bwana1 wrote:
I actually attended multiple events put on by Nikon on release of the Z system. They were constantly propagandizing the advantage of the Z mount in producing a smaller, lighter camera system. Including smaller bodies and lenses. Nikon has frequently said that the big Z mount, and short flange distance makes it possible to design fast lenses smaller.

In this Nikon video the Nikon Optical Engineer makes similar claims multiple times. He even says that the big Z mount makes producing wider aperture lenses possible. Of course we all know that this is not true as evidenced by other manufactures making
...Show more

The Nikon engineer in the video says the smaller flange distance makes smaller camera bodies possible. He does not talk about it making smaller lenses possible. In fact, he says that the choice of the lens diameter was a tradeoff between accomodating optical designs and trying to keep lenses small. So he actually implies that the larger mount means larger lenses. (It's not clear whether he only talks about the diameter of lenses, or about both diameter and length.)

The Noctilux 50mm f/.95 has only 15 % light transmission in the corner, while the Nikkor 58mm f/.95 S Noct has almost 30 %. The Noctilux, by todays standards, must be regarded as a character lens, while the Noct may, in extremis, be used as a repro lens.

Edited on Sep 01, 2023 at 01:30 PM · View previous versions



Aug 31, 2023 at 11:28 PM
suteetat
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p.4 #14 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


1bwana1 wrote:
My experience is that I am not happy with many of the Leica M lenses on unmodified Sony and Nikon sensors. The small leica lenses preform so well because they are part of a very intricate optical system. I notice degradation when used outside of that system.

Software correction is a basic part of optics these days. In the past it was often applied in post. But modern technology has made it so that it can now be applied in camera. That is a good thing. Once again, all that really matters is the IQ of the finished product. We have
...Show more

Yes, many M lenses don't like the thick sensor cover. M lenses were designed initially with film in mind and they don't have
to worry about angle of incident etc etc as there is no such thing as peripheral smearing to worry about like with digital sensor.
Leica addressed that in M9 with very thin sensor cover which backed fire as they had problem with sensor corrosion.
I think their current approach is better but the micro lens design is there to accomodate limitation imposed by M mount
so it is a work around rather than intrinsic benefit of the mount.
I was playing with Leica M11 monochrome the other day at my local dealer and ouch, love the camera hate the price.
I bought M246 monochrome then sold it. Bought M10 monochrome then sold it. Now I lust after M11 monochrome. When am I going to learn my lession on my buy-sell monochrome and lost lots of money there




Aug 31, 2023 at 11:32 PM
AcuteShadows
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p.4 #15 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


As long as there is no spatial degradation of the image (such as astigmatism), i.e. only color shift towards the periphery, you can use Lens Cast Calibration (LCC) files.



© AcuteShadows 2023


Lens color cast and vignetting of the Leica Summarit f/2.4 lens on the Nikon Z 6 at f/4 and focus at infinity.







Lens color cast (without vignette) of the Leica Summarit f/2.4 lens on the Nikon Z 6 at f/4 and focus at infinity.




Aug 31, 2023 at 11:39 PM
ilkka_nissila
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p.4 #16 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


Not sure if it is really a factor but Nikon is reported in several reviews to have an advantage in VR when using telephoto lenses. Fotomagazin gave the Z 70-200/2.8 S high marks for stability and Duade Paton was very impressed with the 180-600mm's stabilization (compared to Sony).

I believe this could be in part due to the greater freedom of sensor movement afforded by the larger Z mount. But I have no real data or inside information about it, it just seems logical that the image circle of Z lenses can be a bit bigger and this can help IBIS. I have noticed that having the sensor moving part of VR can make a big difference in hand-held stability with telephotos e.g. at 300mm focal length. Viewfinder is very stable when my VR 300/2.8G II is used with a Z camera while it is much harder to keep stable with a DSLR.

Of course there can be other contributing factors in addition to the mount size.



Sep 01, 2023 at 03:45 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.4 #17 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


1bwana1 wrote:
I actually attended multiple events put on by Nikon on release of the Z system. They were constantly propagandizing the advantage of the Z mount in producing a smaller, lighter camera system. Including smaller bodies and lenses. Nikon has frequently said that the big Z mount, and short flange distance makes it possible to design fast lenses smaller.

In this Nikon video the Nikon Optical Engineer makes similar claims multiple times. He even says that the big Z mount makes producing wider aperture lenses possible. Of course we all know that this is not true as evidenced by other manufactures making
...Show more


I think Nikon has followed a pretty clear but somewhat different strategy from other manufacturers. I am not sure it is a better strategy, but I think it is a defensible strategy.

For their S lenses (i.e., professional lenses) they have generally not followed a smaller lighter design philosophy and this is especially so the higher level the lens is that is offered. They have, however, offered a wide range of S lenses with smaller apertures that although not small are not especially big either. These S lenses include the 20 f/1.8; 24 f/1.8; 35 f/1.8; 50 f/1.8; 85 f/1.8; 400 f/4.5; 800 f/6.3 PF; 14-30 f/4; 24-70 f/4; 100-400 f/4.5-5.6. The higher the level of the lens, however, the larger they seem to become, so the f/1.2 primes and the fastest long lenses, and even the f/2.8 zooms are all pretty big compared to the competition. For professional lenses small and light just does not seem to be a major priority and they offer smaller lenses in this category by going with smaller max aperture. Said simply for these professional lenses top IQ is a priority over small and light.

For their non S lenses, however, Nikon offers some very small and light options that are quite competitive with the competition on small and light. If you look at the roadmap they even have a whole category of lenses called "compact primes." They only have a few lenses in this category at this point but they are very small and light. The cooperation with Tamron has also brought a number of small and light f/2.8 zooms to the table and brought the 17-28, 28-75, and 70-180 f/2.8 to the table with a Nikon badge. As Nikon added these lenses they also seem to care more about having small and light fast zooms lenses than about getting Tamron's most recent and highest quality lenses. The recent 180-600 f/5.6-6.3 zoom seems to fit in this category as well. It is a lens that is very competitive on size and weight, a non-S lens with quite decent IQ but not optimized IQ either (note the omission of the best lens coatings with this lens). So Nikon is putting together a pretty broad set of the lenses that are not their professional or best lenses, but are meant to be small and light. Said simply small and light for these lenses is a priority over top IQ.

So, it seems that for Nikon as they have developed the Z mount they are offering small and light lenses, but primarily at the non-pro level and if they offer smaller pro lenses it is by reducing the max aperture and not designing the lenses to be small for the aperture they are. This may well be a reasonable strategy. If pros in general are a lot less concerned with the size of the lenses and if when they want small they are generally fine with just using smaller max aperture lenses, then it is actually a really smart strategy. if, however, there are a lot of pros that want small pro lenses, then they will probably lose many of those pros to other mounts. At the non-Pro level, however, I think Nikon is doing a reasonably good job competing on size and weight and in time they will have a very competitive set of lenses. They obviously still need some development of these lenses, but they have made excellent progress with small light non-Pro lenses in the last couple of years.

So, I don't think it is as simple as Nikon doesn't design for small and light, but rather that small and light is a low priority for Pro lenses and a high priority for at least some non-Pro lenses. I think we see this strategy to some extent even in cameras. If we think of Z6, Z7, Z8, and Z9 cameras as pro level cameras, then we again see that size and weight is a lower priority and especially so at the highest level Z9. In contrast the non-Pro Z5, Z50, and especially Z30 are much more competitive on size and weight.

So, I would not say that size and weight isn't something Nikon cares about, but they seem to care about it a lot more for their non-Pro cameras and lenses than for the Pro cameras and lenses and it seems to be a very low priority for their highest level Pro cameras and lenses.



Sep 01, 2023 at 07:18 AM
AcuteShadows
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p.4 #18 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


Steve Spencer wrote:
I think Nikon has followed a pretty clear but somewhat different strategy from other manufacturers. I am not sure it is a better strategy, but I think it is a defensible strategy.

For their S lenses (i.e., professional lenses) they have generally not followed a smaller lighter design philosophy and this is especially so the higher level the lens is that is offered. They have, however, offered a wide range of S lenses with smaller apertures that although not small are not especially big either. These S lenses include the 20 f/1.8; 24 f/1.8; 35 f/1.8; 50 f/1.8; 85
...Show more

I generally agree. However, I would point out that not all of the small, non-S FX lenses make use of the larger diameter. (The same is true for the telephoto lenses, which don't need the larger mount because at f/2.8 and smaller apertures, the cone of light hitting the sensor is narrow and does not need the larger mount.) The 40/2 does, and the 28/2.8 appears to use the larger mount to a limited degree. For many of these smaller lenses, maybe it's weight that becomes the limiting factor, thus leading to smaller optical elements that have a smaller diameter.


Edited on Sep 01, 2023 at 02:18 PM · View previous versions



Sep 01, 2023 at 01:38 PM
ilkka_nissila
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p.4 #19 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


I disagree that they don't care about weight on their professional lenses; although the f/1.8 S primes are not small, they're not especially large either, and certainly not heavy. The longer lenses (> 200mm) in the S line all seem to be optimized for low weight as well as image quality. The 14-24/2.8 is very small and light for its specs and image quality. The 24-70/2.8 I would argue is exceptionally high quality and smaller and lighter than the F-mount versions. The only lenses in the Z line which are unexpectedly large and heavy for their specs and quality are the very fast f/1.2 and f/0.95 primes. The 400/4.5 and 800/6.3 are examples of unusually lightweight teles for their focal lengths and apertures.

Sure, there are other manufacturers' lenses which are in some cases smaller and lighter, such as the 70-200/2.8. In this case it seems Nikon took the very highly regarded 70-200/2.8 FL and because of its success only made moderate changes to it while Canon went for a much smaller lens which unfortunately loses a lot of focal length when focused close (which they Nikkor does not). Also the Canon lens is incompatible with TCs. I agree with Nikon's approach for minimizing angle of view changes when focusing, and think this is a very valuable characteristic and would not choose the smaller lens if it has significant breathing. TC support is less important to me but it seems people report the 70-200/2.8 S does well with the Z 1.4x TC.

IMO there is no tendency for Z lenses to be overly large or heavy, there are more examples of very lightweight Z Nikkors (also in the S line) than examples of heavy lenses.



Sep 01, 2023 at 02:00 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.4 #20 · Why was the larger Z mount necessary, exactly?


ilkka_nissila wrote:
I disagree that they don't care about weight on their professional lenses; although the f/1.8 S primes are not small, they're not especially large either, and certainly not heavy. The longer lenses (> 200mm) in the S line all seem to be optimized for low weight as well as image quality. The 14-24/2.8 is very small and light for its specs and image quality. The 24-70/2.8 I would argue is exceptionally high quality and smaller and lighter than the F-mount versions. The only lenses in the Z line which are unexpectedly large and heavy for their specs and quality are
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I don't think we actually disagree. I said Nikon provides smaller S lenses by making them with a smaller max aperture but not that they don't offer smaller lenses at all. That said even the f/1.8 primes while smaller are a little bigger than at least their Sony competitors. I will just report weights to keep it simple, but size differences are similar:

Nikon 20 f/1.8S - 505g; Sony 20 f/1.8G - 373g
Nikon 35 f/1.8S - 363g; Sony 35 f/1.8 - 280g
Nikon 50 f/1.8S - 415g; Sony/Zeiss 55 f/1.8 - 281g
Nikon 85 f/1.8S - 470g; Sony 85 f/1.8 - 371g

So where Nikon and Sony do make similar lenses the Sony lenses are a bit smaller. That said Nikon does make a 24 f/1.8S; the 400 f/4.5S, and the 800 f/6.3S PF, and Sony makes no similar smaller aperture lenses.

Now let's look at the f/2.8 zooms

Nikon 14-24 f/2.8S - 650g; Sony 16-35 f/2.8 II GM - 547g (Sony also makes a 12-24 f/2.8 that weighs 847g but is a wider lens which does add weight)
Nikon 24-70 f/2.8S - 805g; Sony 24-70 f/2.8 II GM - 695g
Nikon 70-200 f/2.8S - 1,360g; Sony 70-200 f/2.8 II GM - 1,045g

So with the exception of the significantly wider wide angle lens the Sony f/2.8 pro zooms are all a bit lighter than their Nikon counterparts. This is obviously true for the 400 f/2.8 and 600 f/4 pro lenses as well as Nikon took the step of building in a custom TC which does improve optical quality at the cost of adding additional weight. I stand by my earlier comments. For their pro lenses it seems that Nikon has prioritized excellence in optics over reducing size and weight or at least it looks that way when comparing with similar Sony lenses.



Sep 01, 2023 at 02:43 PM
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