p.1 #1 · LED Lights, Silent Shutter, Sensors, Banding, and Color Effects
Incandescent bulbs are being phased out in favor of LEDs. I am hoping to gather in this thread information about the extent to which people are having LED issues with their indoor photography and what they are doing about it.
LED bulbs have two problems as far as photography is concerned: Their flickering can cause banding on most camera sensors when they are used with silent shutter; and their color characteristics can produce very flat and inaccurate color images that can be quite difficult to correct because of the nature of the defect.
The banding problem either does not occur or is much reduced when using mechanical shutter. Electronic or silent shutter is very prone to the problem. Shutter speed is a relevant variable--the faster, the worse. And different LEDs flicker at different rates, so the problem is worse with some bulbs than with others.
You can avoid the banding by using a stacked sensor, but this limits your choices in cameras. For Sony, the only stacked sensor mirrorless cameras are the A1 and the A9/A9II. The color distortion can be handled by installing LEDs with a CRI (color rendering index) of about 95 or above--but these bulbs are less common and more expensive. I've put them in my home and they do produce good light, but the flickering/banding remains a problem.
Some cameras have a variable shutter that can help to reduce the problem. But in all cases I have seen, the use of the variable shutter, even the automatic variable shutter, is kludgy and requires some attention while shooting. What are people experiencing with their variable shutters?
Within a year or two, most indoor lighting everywhere is likely to be LEDs. To what extent are people encountering photography problems with this?
p.1 #2 · LED Lights, Silent Shutter, Sensors, Banding, and Color Effects
Adding flash/strobes is a possible partial workaround, although not a complete solution for all situations.
I have been shooting A1's for the last several years, so I essentially forgot about this potential problem. I recently acquired an A7RV, and as a result of your post, just shot it around the several LED lights I have in the house (LED strips and bulbs), at varying shutter speeds. Luckily, I experienced zero banding; however, I do not expect to be so lucky when out in the world, shooting. Fortunately, I have the option of shooting the A1 in such conditions.
Used A9's have been selling fairly cheaply on FM B&S, lately.
p.1 #3 · LED Lights, Silent Shutter, Sensors, Banding, and Color Effects
InFocus2014 wrote:
Adding flash/strobes is a possible partial workaround, although not a complete solution for all situations.
I have been shooting A1's for the last several years, so I essentially forgot about this potential problem. I recently acquired an A7RV, and as a result of your post, just shot it around the several LED lights I have in the house (LED strips and bulbs), at varying shutter speeds. Luckily, I experienced zero banding; however, I do not expect to be so lucky when out in the world, shooting. Fortunately, I have the option of shooting the A1 in such conditions.
Used A9's have been selling fairly cheaply on FM B&S, lately. ...Show more →
I assume you were using silent electronic shutter--I should have said that the problem either does not occur or is very much reduced with mechanical shutter, but it does occur regularly with silent shutter.
I have an A1 and an A9, so I don't myself worry about banding at this point. But I do feel like it is an issue if I decide to get a camera with a non-stacked sensor like the A7RV, the A7C or its successors, or the A6700. Or even a GRIIIX.
I am very interested by the fact that you did not have problems with the A7RV near a few LED lights in your home. Do you know why you didn't? Were the LEDs mixed with daylight or other lighting? Was the variable shutter turned on?
Theatrical and sports stadium LEDs may be more of a problem than home LEDs, but the ones at home and in stores or markets would often produce banding on my A7Cs.
It would be very interesting and also very helpful if you could obtain some shots with A7RV that did have LED banding and then make adjustments and changes until you did not get banding so that we would all know more about causes and workarounds.
Depending on what you find, I might wind up with an A7RV.
p.1 #4 · LED Lights, Silent Shutter, Sensors, Banding, and Color Effects
Complicated subject and I went into this already pretty heavy and the real answer is it depends on the LED mostly but there are ways around it but you need to figure it out. Variable shutter is one tool in mechanical shutter and kits also about the amount of light as you could reduce shutter speed to a point that is not usable as well. Test is the only way to know if it works both with electronic and mechanical shutter. You can’t go by numbers so much you really have a lot of variables
p.1 #5 · LED Lights, Silent Shutter, Sensors, Banding, and Color Effects
chiron wrote:
I assume you were using silent electronic shutter--I should have said that the problem either does not occur or is very much reduced with mechanical shutter, but it does occur regularly with silent shutter.
The only time use mechanical shutter on the A1 is when I need 1/400 synch speed, which is rare. Unless I am shooting motion and/or strobes, I use electronic shutter on the A7R5 most of the time.
I have an A1 and an A9, so I don't myself worry about banding at this point. But I do feel like it is an issue if I decide to get a camera with a non-stacked sensor like the A7RV, the A7C or its successors, or the A6700. Or even a GRIIIX.
I am very interested by the fact that you did not have problems with the A7RV near a few LED lights in your home. Do you know why you didn't? Were the LEDs mixed with daylight or other lighting? Was the variable shutter turned on?
The rooms were fairly dimly lighted, so the LED's provided most of the light, but I will re-test after dark.
Theatrical and sports stadium LEDs may be more of a problem than home LEDs, but the ones at home and in stores or markets would often produce banding on my A7Cs.
Yeah, I expect to see banding on the A7R5 with electronic shutter in commercial settings.
It would be very interesting and also very helpful if you could obtain some shots with A7RV that did have LED banding and then make adjustments and changes until you did not get banding so that we would all know more about causes and workarounds.
I would welcome the opportunity to test in banding conditions so that I can see the extent of adjustments required. I'll see what I can find this weekend.
Depending on what you find, I might wind up with an A7RV....Show more →
p.1 #6 · LED Lights, Silent Shutter, Sensors, Banding, and Color Effects
I replied, above, to your questions by attempting to interlace my responses, but obviously do not know how to do that, correctly. Hope you can find my responses.
p.1 #8 · LED Lights, Silent Shutter, Sensors, Banding, and Color Effects
Not all LEDs use PWM (Pulse Width Modulation). PWM is the most common and cheapest way of adjusting LED brightness though. PWM causes the flickering. If current control is used, there is no flickering and this can apply to LEDs with and without brightness control.
p.1 #9 · LED Lights, Silent Shutter, Sensors, Banding, and Color Effects
airfrogusmc wrote:
The faster shutter speeds with a mechanical shutter will cause issues. 1/125 and slower is usually pretty safe.
I think I could go a bit faster than 1/125th with the A7C (which I don't have any more to do a test). It may vary a bit with the different readout speeds of the various cameras with non-stacked sensors and also vary with the specific LED in use.
p.1 #10 · LED Lights, Silent Shutter, Sensors, Banding, and Color Effects
Choderboy wrote:
Not all LEDs use PWM (Pulse Width Modulation). PWM is the most common and cheapest way of adjusting LED brightness though. PWM causes the flickering. If current control is used, there is no flickering and this can apply to LEDs with and without brightness control.
Interesting. If current control is used in a dimmable LED bulb, would that also eliminate the various issues that arise with the wall dimmer switches?
p.1 #11 · LED Lights, Silent Shutter, Sensors, Banding, and Color Effects
With my Leica M 10s (mechanical shutter only)I had issues with speeds faster than 1/125 in several different situations. So to be safe I just stick to under 1/125.
p.1 #12 · LED Lights, Silent Shutter, Sensors, Banding, and Color Effects
I don't think stacked sensors are completely immune to the more "tricky" LEDs, while A7RV has auto flicker frequency detection in variable shutter, which I think is the most failsafe solution available currently.
p.1 #13 · LED Lights, Silent Shutter, Sensors, Banding, and Color Effects
chiron wrote:
Interesting. If current control is used in a dimmable LED bulb, would that also eliminate the various issues that arise with the wall dimmer switches?
What issues?
One issue with PWM circuits is that they can create an audible high frequency sound. Usually associated with a poorly (or cheaply) designed product.
p.1 #15 · LED Lights, Silent Shutter, Sensors, Banding, and Color Effects
I wanted to add that with older fluorescent light I know that I need to be at even shutter speeds up to 1/125 of a second. So 1/125, 160, 1/30, 1/15, 1/8 1/4 etc but not faster than 1/125. I have never tested this with LED.
p.1 #16 · LED Lights, Silent Shutter, Sensors, Banding, and Color Effects
I encounter it at wedding receptions quite a bit. Unable (or perhaps unwilling) to use flash the whole time during speeches and candids, I have to use mechanical shutter and hope for the best. I have no input on the lights used at these venues so its trial & error with mechanical shutter. When I don’t see banding, I stuck to those settings. Still creeps in at times even with my A9.
p.1 #17 · LED Lights, Silent Shutter, Sensors, Banding, and Color Effects
I am a Nikon Z7 amateur photographer that has been capturing granddaughters’ dance performances for the past several years. These performances tend to be held at community performance centers and have encountered that most are all using LED backlighting (and suspect spotlighting as well). I also visit historic homes across the country and have encountered LED lighting everywhere at these venues as well. My interest here, is the fact that I encounter the LED banding effect from time to time. It varies everywhere I go but I do max my aperture and lower my shutter speed to uncomfortable speeds for the fast movements on stage to avoid the banding. I get positive results, but my post production efforts can vary dramatically to achieve consistent results. The banding affect however is one I can’t dismiss. I will alter my practices to disable my noiseless shutter setting to see if it helps, despite being a Nikon
p.1 #18 · LED Lights, Silent Shutter, Sensors, Banding, and Color Effects
Big_Dude wrote:
I am a Nikon Z7 amateur photographer that has been capturing granddaughters’ dance performances for the past several years. These performances tend to be held at community performance centers and have encountered that most are all using LED backlighting (and suspect spotlighting as well). I also visit historic homes across the country and have encountered LED lighting everywhere at these venues as well. My interest here, is the fact that I encounter the LED banding effect from time to time. It varies everywhere I go but I do max my aperture and lower my shutter speed to uncomfortable speeds for the fast movements on stage to avoid the banding. I get positive results, but my post production efforts can vary dramatically to achieve consistent results. The banding affect however is one I can’t dismiss. I will alter my practices to disable my noiseless shutter setting to see if it helps, despite being a Nikon ...Show more →
Try keeiping your shutter speeds on even speeds and not faster than 1/125. So like I mentioned in a previous post 1/125,/ 1/60, 1/30, 1/15 ect.
p.1 #19 · LED Lights, Silent Shutter, Sensors, Banding, and Color Effects
Some LEDs invert to DC and have no banding. I have seen LEDs with cycle time of 10,000 per second. I am doing a lot of small objects and find a couple of LED flashlights work well but color can be problematic.
p.1 #20 · LED Lights, Silent Shutter, Sensors, Banding, and Color Effects
I've definitely noticed the issues you mentioned with LED lighting in my photography. The color distortion was my main problem, but I managed to mitigate it by experimenting with white balance settings on my camera. It took some trial and error to get colors that looked natural. As for the flickering issue, I haven't found a perfect solution yet. However, I've read on this website called leds.to some photographers have had success with specific camera settings or lighting arrangements to minimize it; take a look; maybe it could save your problem.
