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50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3

  
 
lifeandmylens
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3


cbass wrote:
I am surprised at how well the v2/v3 are doing compared to the asph. Now you will need to add the Summilux-R variants to the test. Just kidding about the last part.

I would also keep the V1. It's the most unique and had the shortest production run.


Hah! The last thing I need is another 50! That said I have an e58 noct f1 coming that I'd love to include in this comparison

I agree, I am keeping either the v3 (for the modern touches like MFD, lightweight etc) or the v1 (for all it's character). But most likely the v1.



Jun 14, 2023 at 05:04 AM
lifeandmylens
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3


The CLA is done on the v1 and v3. Interesting summary on the v1. Curious to try it out:

Summilux 50/1.4 version I lens - CLA'd, cleaned and lubricated both aperture and focus rings. Cleaned aperture blades removed oil on blades. Cleaned optics. Optically the lens is clean and clear now. We have the lens focus adjusted. Tested the lens with digital M body, lens is in focus and produce good images. We compared it to your Summilux 50/1.4 version III lens, and got the same sharp images from f1.4 at close distance.



Jun 14, 2023 at 05:05 AM
Matt Kerby
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3


lifeandmylens wrote:
Some of that may be more work than I can put into it (my wife has me refinishing floors right now...with a 4 month old baby haha), but will try to get to some of it

These were with the lens on each set to 5m (the scales are not the exact same). Coma/SA is not corrected on the v1 (which you can also see on some of the specular highlights on the out of focus rendering photos). Coma/SA seems very well corrected on the asph and somewhere in the middle on the v2/v3 (I'm no lens expert!). I'll do
...Show more

Wow...thanks for doing this post...Super informative and very interesting. ..In this particular post you have shots of the string of lights. My 1969 version II matches your version I. (with the "winged" coma) I also think my version II looks almost identical to the rest of the bokeh shots.
I was thinking as I browsed the 1st few sets, hmmm, his version 1 renders almost exactly like my version 2...Then I thought, I wish he'd do a coma test at night to see if the wings are similar and Wallah....The wings appear. Weird to me that your version 2 doesn't have them. (or maybe it's weird that my v2 does?)
Again, thank for the time you took to do this...I thought the same thing when trying to compare these lenses (How can there not be comparisons between the versions?)






Jun 14, 2023 at 09:14 AM
lifeandmylens
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3


Matt Kerby wrote:
Wow...thanks for doing this post...Super informative and very interesting. ..In this particular post you have shots of the string of lights. My 1969 version II matches your version I. (with the "winged" coma) I also think my version II looks almost identical to the rest of the bokeh shots.
I was thinking as I browsed the 1st few sets, hmmm, his version 1 renders almost exactly like my version 2...Then I thought, I wish he'd do a coma test at night to see if the wings are similar and Wallah....The wings appear. Weird to me that your version 2
...Show more

Thats interesting! It could also be user error on my part...I'm no Fred



Jun 14, 2023 at 09:41 AM
cbass
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3


lifeandmylens wrote:
Thats interesting! It could also be user error on my part...I'm no Fred


The coma testing results of your V2 is what is expected based on what Leica has published about the lens. Starting from V2 onward the lens should have good to excellent coma correction. I was unsure about the ASPH because I couldn't find any official documents, but you would assume Leica would only improve upon coma correction. The problem with assuming is it can make an "ass" out of "u" and "me". Your testing of the ASPH confirmed that indeed coma correction has only improved. V1 was also unknown as there just isn't much information about it other than skip V1 and buy V2, which isn't helpful.

The winged coma on the V2 is unexpected. Either is not really a V2. There is a defect with that particular copy. It is a transition piece, or it is some franken lens or perhaps even it was serviced, and an element flipped or something of that sort.

Edited on Jun 14, 2023 at 01:58 PM · View previous versions



Jun 14, 2023 at 01:43 PM
Matt Kerby
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3


cbass wrote:
The coma testing results of your V2 is what is expected based on what Leica has published about the lens. Starting from V2 onward the lens should have good to excellent coma correction. I was not unsure about the ASPH because I couldn't find any official documents, but you would assume Leica would only improve upon coma correction. The problem with assuming is it can make an "ass" out of "u" and "me". V1 was also unknown as there just isn't much information about it other than skip V1 and buy V2, which isn't helpful.

The winged coma on the V2
...Show more

Interesting...I'll have to take a closer look.



Jun 14, 2023 at 01:46 PM
lifeandmylens
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3




Matt Kerby wrote:
Interesting...I'll have to take a closer look.


Just curious what are the first four of the s/n? And can you weigh your copy?



Jun 14, 2023 at 01:47 PM
Matt Kerby
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3


Well, I'm a complete knucklehead. After grabbing my 50 v2 and throwing it on my SL2 and running the same test as you (pretty much) I see it has no "wings". Must be my 35 pre-asph v2 I was thinking of (now I have to check.)

For what it's worth, my 50 v2 is 288 grams naked and the serial # is 2345898.



Jun 14, 2023 at 02:13 PM
RustyRus
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3


Matt Kerby wrote:
Well, I'm a complete knucklehead. After grabbing my 50 v2 and throwing it on my SL2 and running the same test as you (pretty much) I see it has no "wings". Must be my 35 pre-asph v2 I was thinking of (now I have to check.)

For what it's worth, my 50 v2 is 288 grams naked and the serial # is 2345898.


Now that I know the serial # of your lens, I am opening a credit card in its name right now!

I do always laugh when people black it out. Not sure what you could do with it




Jun 14, 2023 at 02:32 PM
RustyRus
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3


Great test here though! I really enjoy all 3 of the tests and honestly would be more than happy with any of them!

I often start digging in on character, and what lens I like more etc. The 50 Lux in all its iterations is just so damn good. I think this test proves it even more. To have to pick a favorite, its between 1 and 3.

I like the bokeh balls more in test 1 with the ver1 lens but in the second test with the chair, I like the smoother falloff into OOF areas with the 3.

If all 3 lenses where in similar condition, I would choose ver 1. I would want a modern Leica Lux to go with it though.

Judging by your purchase of 3 of them, I'm guessing this isn't an issue. HAHA




Jun 14, 2023 at 02:43 PM
 


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highdesertmesa
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3


lifeandmylens wrote:
The CLA is done on the v1 and v3. Interesting summary on the v1. Curious to try it out:

Summilux 50/1.4 version I lens - CLA'd, cleaned and lubricated both aperture and focus rings. Cleaned aperture blades removed oil on blades. Cleaned optics. Optically the lens is clean and clear now. We have the lens focus adjusted. Tested the lens with digital M body, lens is in focus and produce good images. We compared it to your Summilux 50/1.4 version III lens, and got the same sharp images from f1.4 at close distance.


Iím about to the point where I take comparisons with non-CLAed vintage lenses, even good comparisons, as somewhere between factual and anecdotal. Without a CLA, the performance of any given copy is mostly dependent on how it has aged, and they ALL have aged to some degree ó lost focus calibration and developed haze from the blade oil or lens grease, etc., all to varying degrees.

Itís also probably worth considering that a CLAed vintage M lens today (CLAed by a good service like DAG) gives you a lens that may perform better than any copy that came off the assembly line when new.

So while some things like character-based observations are largely unaffected by a CLA, sharpness and contrast can be markedly different afterward.



Jun 14, 2023 at 05:15 PM
cbass
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3


highdesertmesa wrote:
Iím about to the point where I take comparisons with non-CLAed vintage lenses, even good comparisons, as somewhere between factual and anecdotal. Without a CLA, the performance of any given copy is mostly dependent on how it has aged, and they ALL have aged to some degree ó lost focus calibration and developed haze from the blade oil or lens grease, etc., all to varying degrees.

Itís also probably worth considering that a CLAed vintage M lens today (CLAed by a good service like DAG) gives you a lens that may perform better than any copy that came off the assembly
...Show more

You have a point here. The older a lens the more likely something is off with it to affect IQ to a varying degree. However, this does not mean that meaningful comparisons can't be done. Even if you take brand new lenses out of a box there are still issues if you are only looking at minor "sharpness" differences. There is sample variation, but even sample variation is likely to be a smaller factor than slight errors in manually focusing. Even when you try your best with a tripod and remote release or timer there will still be slight errors introduced with manually focusing.

Even with haze or focus calibration issues, the biggest factors affecting "sharpness" are going to be aberrations and other attributes. Curvature. Distortion, Coma. Spherical aberrations. Astigmatism, etc. These should all be obvious even without a CLA and provide valuable information. Out of focus areas and how they render should also not be affected with a CLA. Here, unfortunately, it is a bigger crap shoot. These can be affected by sensor glass thickness and other factors. These aberrations should be visible to an obvious degree. If you are looking at two very sharp parts and trying to pick out minor differences of 5% at large magnification, then you are missing the point.



Jun 14, 2023 at 05:35 PM
lifeandmylens
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3


highdesertmesa wrote:
they ALL have aged to some degree ó lost focus calibration and developed haze from the blade oil or lens grease, etc., all to varying degrees.


I agree as I mentioned earlier. Regarding focus calibration issues...that's the very first thing I do when I get a new lens. The v2 and v3 were spot on. The v1 was off, it front focused slightly. So all these tests were of course done with an EVF. I'm told the focus has now been fixed.

My choice of which version to get for me was mostly about "character" and OOF rendering.

That said, just received my Summarit 50 1.5 back from CLA and it's much higher contrast than it was before. I am curious to compare it to the lux v1 which I've read several times is supposedly the same lens just with different coatings (which I don't think is true). Both will be freshly CLA'd.



Jun 14, 2023 at 05:55 PM
lifeandmylens
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3


RustyRus wrote:
Great test here though! I really enjoy all 3 of the tests and honestly would be more than happy with any of them!

I often start digging in on character, and what lens I like more etc. The 50 Lux in all its iterations is just so damn good. I think this test proves it even more. To have to pick a favorite, its between 1 and 3.

I like the bokeh balls more in test 1 with the ver1 lens but in the second test with the chair, I like the smoother falloff into OOF areas with the 3.
...Show more

Thanks for the feedback! I'm definitely not keeping all three



Jun 14, 2023 at 05:56 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3


cbass wrote:
You have a point here. The older a lens the more likely something is off with it to affect IQ to a varying degree. However, this does not mean that meaningful comparisons can't be done. Even if you take brand new lenses out of a box there are still issues if you are only looking at minor "sharpness" differences. There is sample variation, but even sample variation is likely to be a smaller factor than slight errors in manually focusing. Even when you try your best with a tripod and remote release or timer there will still be slight errors
...Show more

I specifically said rending wouldn't be much affected, therefore most of the tests in this thread are still very useful and meaningful. But the softness of the v1 that was demonstrated has now been rectified according to the CLA notes. This wasn't a case of the tester having missed focus, it was a case where the v1 needed a CLA in order to be completely fair in comparing it to the other versions, at least with regard to sharpness.

Also, a CLA that removes haze can greatly increase the clarity and contrast of the images made by the lens, and bokeh is affected by contrast. Not saying it would have made a difference here, but something to keep in mind. My 35 Lux pre-ASPH v2 came back from a CLA a different lens Ė so different I was worried something was wrong with it!



Jun 14, 2023 at 06:23 PM
Andrew CD
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3


This thread is great! And of real interest to me, even though it does not help me in my struggle against temptation (I already have a lovely non-APO Summicron plus a couple of CVs, so there is no sense in which I need another 50mm lens Ö. ). Itís really good of @lifeandmylens to have spent the time doing the comparisons ó thank you!

Much as I admire the ĎLux Asph, I have also seriously wondered about ó and am fascinated by ó the v2/v3 pre-Asph. So you can imagine why I am really enjoying this thread. From what little I have seen and read, my impression has always been that the v2/v3 OOF areas would be quite smooth (albeit with some swirl) due, at least in part, to having lower contrast than the Asph. Which I would be happy with, particularly for B&W and film.

Perhaps it is fair to say that the pre-Asphsí bokeh can be more variable? Sometimes smoother than the Asph, sometimes rather muddled (with what l, perhaps simplistically, would describe as astigmatism, which is apparent in some of the tests here).

In several of the v1-3 comparisons, I prefer the v3 (in one or two instances, it almost gives the impression of having a slightly wider aperture). This probably puts me in a minority ó but I say this from the perspective of not expecting to ever have more than one ĎLux (I can see how the v1 might better complement the Asph).

But I am surprised by two things: the fact that I think there is a discernible difference between the v2 and v3 in some of the tests (might this have changed post-CLA?); and the extent to which the Asph can look more blurred than all of the pre-Asphs (does it have faster transition?). I liked @highdesertmesa 's comment, that it makes the others look like f/2.

Am I wrong to be surprised by these things, I wonder?

With apologies for a rather rambling post.

Andrew



Jun 15, 2023 at 04:32 AM
lifeandmylens
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3


Andrew CD wrote:
Am I wrong to be surprised by these things, I wonder?


Thanks. Great feedback and observations! I donít think itís wrong to be surprised by these things. The asph is 50 years newer!

I agree with you. I no longer am as crazy about the buttery smooth rendering of the asph like I used to be. Lately, Iíve been preferring more character, less perfection and sometimes unpredictable and wild rendering. So I like the pre asph luxes more



Jun 15, 2023 at 03:03 PM
lifeandmylens
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3


Matt Kerby wrote:
For what it's worth, my 50 v2 is 288 grams naked and the serial # is 2345898.


I'm guessing yours is black by the lower weight



Jun 15, 2023 at 03:04 PM
lifeandmylens
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3


lifeandmylens wrote:
just received my Summarit 50 1.5 back from CLA and it's much higher contrast than it was before. I am curious to compare it to the lux v1 which I've read several times is supposedly the same lens just with different coatings (which I don't think is true). Both will be freshly CLA'd.


Might've been wrong!

Here's a few comparisons with CLA'd v1 and a Summarit.




  LEICA M10-R    Summilux 50mm f/1.4 Pre Asph v1 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/2000s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  






  LEICA M10-R    Summarit f=5cm 1:1.5 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/2000s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  






  LEICA M10-R    Summilux 50mm f/1.4 Pre Asph v1 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/350s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  






  LEICA M10-R    Summarit f=5cm 1:1.5 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/350s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  






  LEICA M10-R    Summilux 50mm f/1.4 Pre Asph v1 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/2000s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  






  LEICA M10-R    Summarit f=5cm 1:1.5 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/1500s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  






  LEICA M10-R    Summilux 50mm f/1.4 Pre Asph v1 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/2000s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  






  LEICA M10-R    Summarit f=5cm 1:1.5 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/2000s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  






  LEICA M10-R    Summilux 50mm f/1.4 Pre Asph v1 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/180s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  






  LEICA M10-R    Summarit f=5cm 1:1.5 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/180s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  






  LEICA M10-R    Summilux 50mm f/1.4 Pre Asph v1 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/350s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  






  LEICA M10-R    Summarit f=5cm 1:1.5 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/350s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  




Jun 15, 2023 at 03:09 PM
lifeandmylens
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · 50 Summilux (pre asph) - v1, v2 & v3


A few comparisons with the newly CLA'd v3 and v1 at 1.4. These have a preset applied to them instead of adobe default. But the same exact processing. Trying to highlight the differences with how I might normally process these.




  LEICA M10-R    Summilux 50mm f/1.4 Pre Asph v1 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/1000s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  






  LEICA M10-R    Summilux 50mm f/1.4 Pre Asph v3 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/1000s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  






  LEICA M10-R    Summilux 50mm f/1.4 Pre Asph v1 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/750s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  






  LEICA M10-R    Summilux 50mm f/1.4 Pre Asph v3 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/750s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  






  LEICA M10-R    Summilux 50mm f/1.4 Pre Asph v1 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/4000s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  






  LEICA M10-R    Summilux 50mm f/1.4 Pre Asph v3 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/4000s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  







v1 MFD

  LEICA M10-R    Summilux 50mm f/1.4 Pre Asph v1 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/500s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  






  LEICA M10-R    Summilux 50mm f/1.4 Pre Asph v3 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/500s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  







v3 MFD

  LEICA M10-R    Summilux 50mm f/1.4 Pre Asph v3 lens    50mm    f/1.4    1/500s    100 ISO    0.0 EV  




Jun 15, 2023 at 06:04 PM
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