p.2 #1 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
Then there's the issue of how different users define "stability". There's a heckuva difference between "tip-over",, vs a barely out-of-focus field-mouse,,, shot from 600 feet away with a Nikon P900 at 2000 mm's..
p.2 #2 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
hiepphotog wrote:
snipped
1. To raise the overall height. I thought this is the only reason to do so to look better on spec sheets. There is no standard to quantify the loss in stiffness/stability.
2. To reduce the leg spread, especially beneficial in a crowded environment (e.g. a bunch of togs taking pictures at an event, landscape attractions, etc.). This is the first time I heard of this as something to consider while buying a tripod.
snipped more
What do you think of this trend and this possible explanation?
Looking way back, I'd suggest the enthusiastic photo community has changed a lot in what they pay attention to. One thing we have now is far more information going far more into the depths of esoterica that could well be simply taking up data space.
#1? I tend to think a tad ill of Leofoto. But their angle might originally just have been the one they copied. However, it might also not be so much of getting overall heights to look good but also the manufacturing economies from using less material, and that could apply to a number of makers. I think the older true photo companies might have users and engineers who fought the bean counters and considered stability first, too.
#2 seems a bit unlikely. I think the level of cooperation I've seen at times was more along the lines of thinking we were lucky to not see a tripod (or its owner) tossed into a hot spring or off a cliff (or in front of a train).
p.2 #3 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
Cinstance wrote:
The tip over is for real. I had my Leofoto LS-365CEX tipped over twice within the same windy winter day on the snow, which was what pushed me to modify the angle to 25 degree. Before the modification, if I tap on the upper leg with adequate force, it actually makes small jumps. After the modification, it does not move at all using the same test.
The mod reduced the height for only 1", but the spread between the legs increased by almost 5". The physics says the weight center has to stay within the base triangle to avoid tip over. After the modification, the base triangle is a lot bigger. ...Show more →
How did you do the modification to increase the angle? I was wishing mine had a bit more spread.
p.2 #4 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
tschopp wrote:
How did you do the modification to increase the angle? I was wishing mine had a bit more spread.
I used a ski sharpener. You need be a little creative though, because straightly out of the box most of the sharpener won't have enough clearance to do the job. The main point is to have an angled guide edge that is about 87 degree, so you can lay a file on one of the surface.
p.2 #6 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
Cinstance wrote:
I used a ski sharpener. You need be a little creative though, because straightly out of the box most of the sharpener won't have enough clearance to do the job. The main point is to have an angled guide edge that is about 87 degree, so you can lay a file on one of the surface.
---------------------------------------------
EB-1 wrote:
I used a Dremel tool with the sanding bands (drums) on the LeoPhoto.
It's easy to go overboard on aluminum, so go slow.
EBH
Did you guys plan out how much to remove, or more like remove then measure approach? Do you guys sand down both the leg stop on the spider and the pull tab or just either one? TIA.
p.2 #7 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
I ground the "pull tab". There was not much planning since it was an emergent situation. I actually started working again on the leg that was finished, so it became a bit wider and then I made the others wider also. I threw the tripod in the luggage the day I was going to the airport.
p.2 #8 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
Some very interesting personal anecdotes. The difference might not matter much in most cases but the extreme/niche ones. People can make great photos with a phone, just like some people can do just fine with a Leofoto (or any lesser quality Chinese brand). I do not have any Leofoto yet, so just curious to see what people think of their approach, and now maybe on how to modify their tripod if I decide to go with a Leofoto. They do have some models that might fit some of my niche needs.
p.2 #9 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
Jeffbuzz:
Perhaps you didn’t read the entire article, in which he states;
“The implications here are non-trivial. Wider leg angle results in better tripod performance.”
And concludes:
“For me, I prefer a wider leg angle. For example, lets consider two hypothetical tripods that are otherwise identical except one has a leg angle of 22.5 degrees, and the other is at 25 degrees. The data above shows that the second one would be roughly 15% stiffer in the yaw direction, which is the weakest and therefore the most critical direction of motion.”
The results of rigorous experimental evidence such as above are considerably more reliable than the purely anecdotal experience you describe, especially when the former is based upon comparing, as Berryrieser is careful to mention, “two hypothetical tripods “THAT ARE OTHERWISE IDENTICAL” except for the leg angle. So yes, leg spread is indeed a critical factor in stiffness, and as I originally posted, it is absolutely measurable.
p.2 #10 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
I built a jig so that I could cut the spider with a 10" 4mm thick sanding disc on my table saw. The jig made it possible to make accurate and repeated cuts. If I simply free-handed it with a dremel or a file, it would be uneven and rough. I wanted all the angles to be pretty close to one another. I filed a small amount from each side in succession without adjusting the height of the blade. Cut the three sides, raise the blade a tiny bit, repeat. I guessestimated how much I needed to cut off. When I reassembled the legs, it was around 26deg. At first, I thought it was too much, but after a while, it's fine.
I don't have a pay account so I cannot post photos. Sorry, guys.
p.2 #11 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
The two attached photos show how much material it needs to remove to reach an angle of 25 degree. It is not only the angle itself, but also the overall height. The one on the left is unmodified.
I first removed the angle stops from the tripod to do the rough mod. After that I do fine tuning with them assembled on the tripod. Just pull one out and stand the leg in vertical position, using some cardboard for protection. Slowly work on each angle stops in turn to make sure the leg spreads are even at all sides and the angle stops have good flat contacts with the apex.
Did you guys plan out how much to remove, or more like remove then measure approach? Do you guys sand down both the leg stop on the spider and the pull tab or just either one? TIA.
p.2 #13 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
I did not. I could not remove the pull tabs from the legs because the screws are likely semi-permanently glued with some kind of loctite. And I couldn't think of a way to cut the pull tabs in a controlled fashion, while still attached to the legs.
p.2 #14 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
billyboy wrote:
Jeffbuzz:
Perhaps you didn’t read the entire article, in which he states;
“The implications here are non-trivial. Wider leg angle results in better tripod performance.”
And concludes:
“For me, I prefer a wider leg angle. For example, lets consider two hypothetical tripods that are otherwise identical except one has a leg angle of 22.5 degrees, and the other is at 25 degrees. The data above shows that the second one would be roughly 15% stiffer in the yaw direction, which is the weakest and therefore the most critical direction of motion.”
The results of rigorous experimental evidence such as above are considerably more reliable than the purely anecdotal experience you describe, especially when the former is based upon comparing, as Berryrieser is careful to mention, “two hypothetical tripods “THAT ARE OTHERWISE IDENTICAL” except for the leg angle. So yes, leg spread is indeed a critical factor in stiffness, and as I originally posted, it is absolutely measurable. ...Show more →
Perhaps you didn't read my previous statement or understand how to interpret the data. I never said leg angle did not matter. I said it is one of many factors that matter.
If you look at the data chart shown on https://thecentercolumn.com/2018/05/19/tripod-stiffness-vs-leg-angle/ you can clearly see there are larger differences in stiffness among tripods all having the same 24 degree leg angle than there are between some tripod having 23 and 25 degree leg angles. It is quite obvious that leg angle alone does not determine stiffness. If it did, all tripods of the same angle would be the same stiffness.
data source thecentercolumn.com with my comments added
p.2 #15 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
jeffbuzz wrote:
Perhaps you didn't read my previous statement or understand how to interpret the data. I never said leg angle did not matter. I said it is one of many factors that matter.
If you look at the data chart shown on https://thecentercolumn.com/2018/05/19/tripod-stiffness-vs-leg-angle/ you can clearly see there are larger differences in stiffness among tripods all having the same 24 degree leg angle than there are between some tripod having 23 and 25 degree leg angles. It is quite obvious that leg angl
e alone does not determine stiffness. If it did, all tripods of the same angle would be the same stiffness.
I don't think any one would think the leg angle is the only factor to affect the stiffness of a tripod . The performance of a system most time is the harmonic mean of the effects of many factors. One characteristic of the harmonic mean is that more weight is given to the weaker factor. If there is one factor that seriously reduces the performance, it would become a bottleneck. That is the same as saying a system can only be as good as the weakest link.
p.2 #16 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
No one is - at least I’m not- saying it’s the only thing, The OP complained of a lack of verifiable measurement of the relationship between leg spread and stiffness. Berryrieser’s work showed that there is; it also showed that yaw was more important than pitch in determining how steady a tripod is. Only a fool would suggest that leg diameter, for instance, has no effect or that steadiness is the result of a number of factors, I’m at a loss why anyone has a hard time accepting the fact that leg spread has a definite, quantifiable, critical effect on tripod stiffness.
p.2 #17 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
Another way to think about stiffness; Set-up the tripod at full height,,, then, collapse the legs fully and compare. None of the angles have changed, but the collapsed version's yaw stiffness should be MUCH stiffer. Mass matters, along with many other factors.
p.2 #18 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
jeffbuzz wrote:
The Tripod Stiffness vs. Leg Angle study Mr. Berryrieser conducted shows the expected correlation between increasing leg angle and stiffness. However, it also shows greater differences in stiffness between various tripods of the same leg angle than it does between some having different angles. So, yes, leg angle is *a* factor but it is not *the* factor.
I've spent some time with tripods in the wind. There has not been a single instance where I had a 23 degree tripod and thought to myself "this would be so much more stable if it was 25 degrees". In the wind or on uneven ground, using a 45 degree leg spread and a counterweight is the only way I'd trust any tripod in wind gusting over 30mph.
p.2 #19 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
billyboy wrote:
No one is - at least I’m not- saying it’s the only thing, The OP complained of a lack of verifiable measurement of the relationship between leg spread and stiffness. Berryrieser’s work showed that there is; it also showed that yaw was more important than pitch in determining how steady a tripod is. Only a fool would suggest that leg diameter, for instance, has no effect or that steadiness is the result of a number of factors, I’m at a loss why anyone has a hard time accepting the fact that leg spread has a definite, quantifiable, critical effect on tripod stiffness....Show more →
I'm all about a more stable tripod. However, I do think David's work does not give us a complete picture yet. An increase of 15% stiffness going from 23 to 25 means what exactly. Similarly to an optical test/Imatest, it's hard to know the real world implication of the difference; are there any situation in that you will see the difference? That's partly why I think a lot of people are okay with the 23 deg. leg stop.
p.2 #20 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
hiepphotog wrote:
I'm all about a more stable tripod. However, I do think David's work does not give us a complete picture yet. An increase of 15% stiffness going from 23 to 25 means what exactly. Similarly to an optical test/Imatest, it's hard to know the real world implication of the difference; are there any situation in that you will see the difference? That's partly why I think a lot of people are okay with the 23 deg. leg stop.
The 15% improvement is in the panning direction. It won't due much to help with tipping over in a strong wind.
. The performance of a system most time is the harmonic mean of the effects of many factors. One characteristic of the harmonic mean is that more weight is given to the weaker factor. If there is one factor that seriously reduces the performance, it would become a bottleneck. That is the same as saying a system can only be as good as the weakest link.