p.1 #1 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
Just talked to an architecture photographer, a tripod enthusiast/collector, and a Leofoto distributor, we had a little debate on why Leofoto transitioned from 25 deg. primary leg angle to the current 23 deg.
From his experience as a professional photographer, his reasoning for such a transition are:
1. To raise the overall height. I thought this is the only reason to do so to look better on spec sheets. There is no standard to quantify the loss in stiffness/stability.
2. To reduce the leg spread, especially beneficial in a crowded environment (e.g. a bunch of togs taking pictures at an event, landscape attractions, etc.). This is the first time I heard of this as something to consider while buying a tripod.
He also noted Leofoto used to make all of theirs with 25.deg primary angle but they changed that later. He also pointed out that the industry already migrated to this new 23 deg. standards, even RRS with their latest gen. Versa, TFC, and Ascend. It seems that RRS did make the Ascend's angle 23, but need to verify for the rest.
What do you think of this trend and this possible explanation?
Edit: After reading through some of the early comments and reviewing some of the findings by Mr. Berryrieser of TCC, he summarized this problem well:
"From the perspective of the manufacturer, it is certainly appealing to err on the side of narrower leg angle. The tripod will be lighter and/or taller than if the leg splay were wider, padding the spec sheet. In addition, the overall material cost will be a little bit lower. There are strong use reasons not to want the leg angle to wide as well. Too wide of a stance becomes cumbersome and unwieldy. If used in a populated area, the tripod becomes that much more prone to blocking pathways and getting in the way of the photographer. A wider stance tripod is much less prone to tipping over though, and as we shall see, also produces better overall stiffness."
The TLDR version: going from 23deg. to 25deg., you lose ~1.5% in max height (and add ~8% in leg spread diameter) while gaining ~15% in average stiffness at the typical 47" (120cm) height of a travel tripod without the column up.
Now whether that is important to you is up to personal preference. The extra 15% might not matter most of the time. My take is that I would rather take that extra 15% in exchange for the drop of 1.5% (leg spread is never that important to me). So maybe I would love to hear more about how you guys would go about modifying the leg angle.
p.1 #2 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
Gosh, I also feel in nature you may be able to level it with smaller adjustments. Trying to remember my geometry.
It seems that reducing the angle from 25 to 23 takes (5,7)6cm out of each legs distance away from the centre assuming legs are 180cm extended. or 1/30th of the leg length. conversely the height only reduces by 2.5cm.
p.1 #3 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
I believe that #1 is the main reason.
Unfortunately the labeled angle doesn't necessarily match the actual angle.
I had to order one of those cheap tripods (LeoPhoto) with a narrow angle due to unplanned circumstances. It was far narrower than my Gitzos, probably closer to 20° than 23°. I was able to grind the aluminum down a bit to achieve ~25-27° leg angle. The angle makes quite a difference in windy areas.
If I ever have to buy another tripod I will look at the construction to figure out how easily the angle can be increased if necessary.
p.1 #4 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
hiepphotog wrote:
1. To raise the overall height. I thought this is the only reason to do so to look better on spec sheets. There is no standard to quantify the loss in stiffness/stability.
I'm with @EB-1. I view it as a sort of cheat to look taller.
I have a Leofoto, which is great in every other way, but definitely not as stable as my Gitzos with the larger angle. I've considered modifying it to increase the angle.
p.1 #5 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
“ From his experience as a professional photographer, his reasoning for such a transition are:
1. To raise the overall height. I thought this is the only reason to do so to look better on spec sheets. There is no standard to quantify the loss in stiffness/stability.”
Yes, there is, quite a good one. You’ll find useful. It, as well as a world of information on tripos and heads, is on The Center Column. The article you’re looking for is linked on the home page.
p.1 #6 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
MikeEvangelist wrote:
I'm with @EB-1@. I view it as a sort of cheat to look taller.
I have a Leofoto, which is great in every other way, but definitely not as stable as my Gitzos with the larger angle. I've considered modifying it to increase the angle.
p.1 #7 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
If that is true, then it's unfortunate. And I too believe that gaming the spec sheet is the only motivation behind it.
From an engineering and safety perspective, a wider spread is better. You can always close the legs if you're standing close to others, and still have a positive stop should the legs splay. You could use a narrow tripod with a wider spread by disengaging the angle selector but you lose the safety catch.
I've modified by original (2018) PMG TR 344L from 22.5 to 26. AFAIK, as of 2021, PMG went to 24.
p.1 #10 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
in the world of weight and balance and geometry yes small that it is. i just means you may need to adjust leg lengths for slope angles more. and of course, what you have piled on top. of the platform.
p.1 #11 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
I think Gitzo's various leg-angles are designed to go hand-in-hand with the intended load-capability of each specific model. Depending on the model, you'll find that Gitzo leg-angles range from 23, 24, 25, and 26 degrees, You'll also find different leg-angles within the same "family",,, for example, a 4-series Systematic (23*) vs a 5-series Systematic (26*). The Gitzo Travellers are 25* and the Mountaineers vary, with the 1-series Mountaineer coming in at 24* and the 2-series at 23*.
With the extensive range of Gitzo series (lengths,, number of sections, quality of twist-locks, and leg-girth) ,, they simply don't need to broaden leg angles to achieve a miniscule added height of 1".
p.1 #12 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
Yes, it has quite a significant effect. See my earlier post. It is not speculation, but the result of careful experimentation by David Berryrieser on The Center Column.
p.1 #13 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
The tip over is for real. I had my Leofoto LS-365CEX tipped over twice within the same windy winter day on the snow, which was what pushed me to modify the angle to 25 degree. Before the modification, if I tap on the upper leg with adequate force, it actually makes small jumps. After the modification, it does not move at all using the same test.
The mod reduced the height for only 1", but the spread between the legs increased by almost 5". The physics says the weight center has to stay within the base triangle to avoid tip over. After the modification, the base triangle is a lot bigger.
p.1 #14 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
The shortest tip-over point distance, is between the center of the legs, and the mid-point between the two opposite legs. This can boil down to a simple set-up issue,,, simply by aiming one leg down-wind. The center-point distance, to any foot, is the longest distance from center.
p.1 #15 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
Just to be sure, it's about the tripod primary leg angle reduction from 25 to 23 degrees. Wow, that sounds exciting and maybe it's totally unfair to assume a leofoto salesman launched this on this forum to get some attention from the photography amateur group for the purpose to increase sales. Let's talk about stability or extension hight. Or let's not.
p.1 #16 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
Angle for angle a Gitzo or RRS will be usually more stable than the cheap Chinese tripods. Angle is only one of the properties that affects the rigidity and vibration of the load. LeoPhoto is more of a disposable tripod IMO.
p.1 #17 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
sjms wrote:
i am glad i have the sticks i have.
My mainstay is an old GT-353xLS and RRS 3-series leveling base with rock solid AS Q-R head system. The legs have outlasted several ball and gimbal heads, and a dozen digital bodies. I'm keeping it forever if possible.
p.1 #19 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
Maybe my initial posting was to harsh, instead of a salesman looking for sales the thread was started by a fellow photographer motivated by GAS. That's totally OK, I've got three tripods and one monopod, which is one monopod and two tripods more than I actually need.
p.1 #20 · Tripod primary leg angle - Is 23 deg. the new trend?
billyboy wrote:
Yes, it has quite a significant effect. See my earlier post. It is not speculation, but the result of careful experimentation by David Berryrieser on The Center Column.
The Tripod Stiffness vs. Leg Angle study Mr. Berryrieser conducted shows the expected correlation between increasing leg angle and stiffness. However, it also shows greater differences in stiffness between various tripods of the same leg angle than it does between some having different angles. So, yes, leg angle is *a* factor but it is not *the* factor.
I've spent some time with tripods in the wind. There has not been a single instance where I had a 23 degree tripod and thought to myself "this would be so much more stable if it was 25 degrees". In the wind or on uneven ground, using a 45 degree leg spread and a counterweight is the only way I'd trust any tripod in wind gusting over 30mph.
