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DPreview shutting down

jdcoletv
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p.11 #1 · p.11 #1 · DPreview shutting down

No, of course not, but the point I was making was that people who can buy expensive cameras and lenses are worth mining for other data and now that fewer people were using DPR that it no longer made sense to own it.

In my limited time there, I found it to be the most interesting and informative forum on the net. And while the discussions often degenerated, they were worth my time to read and learn and on occasion contribute to. It is unfortunate that they didn't try and sell it. Perhaps FM will grow their users over time.

Mar 26, 2023 at 07:41 AM

RCicala
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p.11 #2 · p.11 #2 · DPreview shutting down

I've had a lot of discussions with DPR employees and my own business advisors. Just throwing up their thoughts because a lot of people are talking about Amazon's mistake, why they should sell DPR, etc. (Full disclosure: I've reached out about keeping it open myself).

1. Amazon barely notices DPR. It's 13 employees are a tiny blip in the 27,000 Amazon is cutting. To the extent they notice it, they notice it's a very high expense per employee. DPR is one of the smaller parts of a larger small part they are cutting in it's entirety.
2. Amazon's goal is reducing their expense sheet by the next quarterly report. They are not focused on generating camera sales or raising some cash; they have plenty of cash. They want to cut expenses NOW. Selling takes time, costs money, and as a free standing entity DPRs business model is out of date and ineffective. It would be a hard sell for not much money.
3. Amazon hasn't known what to do with DPR for quite a while. It's changed divisions / reporting structure almost every year for several years.
4. DPR's not worth much as a business entity (although it's database is certainly worth something and that's what I'm hoping can be kept online, if not active). It has a high overhead and is not something that would be very profitable, if at all. Was it back in the day? Absolutely. Times change.

In my discussions, I have zero hope that DPR as it is now will remain. However I think is may be possible to form a nonprofit that would allow the database of DPR (review, forums, all of that) to be kept available and searchable. Some of the subforums (Science and Technology for sure, maybe some others) will be kept alive as different, nonprofit entities.

A lot of the content is at least being dowloaded and stored by various peole. As said above, Amazon isn't trying to sell DPR, they just want to cut their expense sheet. It is unlikely Amazon would try to prevent people from reposting it.

Mar 26, 2023 at 08:04 AM

AZHeaven
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p.11 #3 · p.11 #3 · DPreview shutting down

osv2 wrote:
>sigh<

monthly visits:
dpr: 7.1M
fm: 804k

https://www.similarweb.com/website/dpreview.com/vs/fredmiranda.com/#traffic

I'm constantly telling newbies on the Facebook Sony Forums about Fred Miranda and the website. Not many know about this wonderful website. DPReview seemed to have a larger visability factor perhaps?

Mar 26, 2023 at 08:31 AM

AZHeaven
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p.11 #4 · p.11 #4 · DPreview shutting down

RCicala wrote:
I've had a lot of discussions with DPR employees and my own business advisors. Just throwing up their thoughts because a lot of people are talking about Amazon's mistake, why they should sell DPR, etc. (Full disclosure: I've reached out about keeping it open myself).

1. Amazon barely notices DPR. It's 13 employees are a tiny blip in the 27,000 Amazon is cutting. To the extent they notice it, they notice it's a very high expense per employee. DPR is one of the smaller parts of a larger small part they are cutting in it's entirety.
2. Amazon's goal is reducing...Show more →

What it boils down to whenever a multi billion dollar company "cuts costs" is to screw the little guy trying to make a living while enriching the shareholders.

Mar 26, 2023 at 08:49 AM

GMPhotography
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p.11 #5 · p.11 #5 · DPreview shutting down

That’s true but as a former forum owner GetDPI there simply no money in it except for the love you have for it and really just breaking even on the expenses . We did not charge for anything or sell anything so revenue was by donations. Here Fred has his Buy and Sell that at least provides him with a living. He has something at least can generate revenue. Thrilled for him and always supported FM even when I owned my own. Great data is great data and that’s worth more than the revenue. But it’s hard to keep these small forums alive. Even the google ads only generate expense money.
Frankly I wish Roger took it over, I would have certainly helped if he needed it. But this is no surprise to me at all.

Mar 26, 2023 at 09:09 AM

Daran
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p.11 #6 · p.11 #6 · DPreview shutting down

Mar 26, 2023 at 09:10 AM

chiron
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p.11 #7 · p.11 #7 · DPreview shutting down

RCicala wrote:
I've had a lot of discussions with DPR employees and my own business advisors. Just throwing up their thoughts because a lot of people are talking about Amazon's mistake, why they should sell DPR, etc. (Full disclosure: I've reached out about keeping it open myself).

1. Amazon barely notices DPR. It's 13 employees are a tiny blip in the 27,000 Amazon is cutting. To the extent they notice it, they notice it's a very high expense per employee. DPR is one of the smaller parts of a larger small part they are cutting in it's entirety.
2. Amazon's goal is reducing...Show more →

Thank you for posting this. It is great to have some insight into what is actually going on and the business reasons for the decision. Decisions that are difficult to understand from the outside usually make sense when viewed from the inside.

And thank you for taking steps to preserve what is most important and useful from the site. We all wish you well on this.

Mar 26, 2023 at 09:36 AM

chez
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p.11 #8 · p.11 #8 · DPreview shutting down

AZHeaven wrote:
What it boils down to whenever a multi billion dollar company "cuts costs" is to screw the little guy trying to make a living while enriching the shareholders.

If you don’t please your shareholders, you won’t be around very long. I take it you are invested in stocks one way or another. You probably like it when the stocks go up rather than down.

Mar 26, 2023 at 11:01 AM

molson
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p.11 #9 · p.11 #9 · DPreview shutting down

My only surprise is that it took anyone in Amazon's senior management this look to discover they actually owned DPR. There was never any realistic business case to be made for purchasing it - it was probably purchased solely because it was for sale.

Mar 26, 2023 at 11:06 AM

AZHeaven
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p.11 #10 · p.11 #10 · DPreview shutting down

What it boils down to whenever a multi billion dollar company "cuts costs" is to screw the little guy trying to make a living while enriching the shareholders.

If you don’t please your shareholders, you won’t be around very long. I take it you are invested in stocks one way or another. You probably like it when the stocks go up rather than down.

Same goes for employees. If you don't make them happy? If moral is low? They won't stay around long either. And experience is key to the success of a company or corporation. I don't own any stock. I didn't have any money to buy company stock when it was affordable. New family just starting. New job with entry level pay. And no health insurance for several months.

But....30 years in a multibillion dollar corporation. Twice a year upper management would come and meet with our station. Proudly talking about the huge profits the company made. When asked about a raise. Even just a COLA raise? We would get "well, we don't have info on that". And we would end up either not getting a raise or get a small, below COLA raise. Despite the huge profits they talked about. But then we hear of the huge dividends the share holders received.

I'm lucky. Despite injuries, horrible bosses, etc I made it to 30 years. It just would have been nice for a decent raise once in a while. Because the little guys/gals have a life and things to purchase to live also.

Mar 27, 2023 at 07:49 AM

ramesesthe2nd
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p.11 #11 · p.11 #11 · DPreview shutting down

Friedman Doctrine: "An entity’s greatest responsibility lies in the satisfaction of the shareholders"

https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/equities/friedman-doctrine/

DPReview and Consumer Camera Industry in general are at the end of life. Phones, AI, and computational photography will kill the significant portion of the remaining prosumer market soon too, as it is evident by numerous size v/s IQ discussions on this forum. It is a dying industry. Enjoy while you have the remnants of the past still lingering around.

Mar 27, 2023 at 08:01 AM

MikeEvangelist
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p.11 #12 · p.11 #12 · DPreview shutting down

Mar 27, 2023 at 08:02 AM

GMPhotography
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p.11 #13 · p.11 #13 · DPreview shutting down

Mar 27, 2023 at 08:58 AM

chiron
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p.11 #14 · p.11 #14 · DPreview shutting down

GMPhotography wrote:
For some of us here either Pro or Hobbyists after decades involved in it as a business or hobby that’s painful to read but I agree it’s a dying Art as at least we know it. I’m coming into it now as I am retiring. In a way great timing for me.

Way too much doom and gloom. There is no question that technologies are shifting, as they always do, and the consumer segment of the camera market has been very significantly impacted. Technology always rolls on.

But in fact the boom in sales of digital cameras was really only a blip on the screen in the early 2000s. In the 20th Century and throughout most of its history, photography was a somewhat arcane skill and hobby and profession that was practiced to a high state of achievement by a relatively small group of people.

All that is happening is that we are going back to that smaller group of dedicated photographers, who practice photography as an art and as a rewarding craft. The numbers of photographers and their market segments will be more like they were in the 1970s. Fewer people will own cameras, but those who do will be more expert and dedicated. The prices of a camera or a lens may go up but the technology that each contains will be better and more powerful and more sophisticated.

The great photographers of the past all worked in a photography market for high end gear that was much smaller than ours will become. How many Leicas do you think were sold in 1946 when Cartier-Bresson had his first show at MOMA?

And the truth is that people are taking many, many more photographs now, not fewer.

Edited on Mar 27, 2023 at 10:44 AM · View previous versions

Mar 27, 2023 at 10:12 AM

LBJ2
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p.11 #15 · p.11 #15 · DPreview shutting down

ramesesthe2nd wrote:
Friedman Doctrine: "An entity’s greatest responsibility lies in the satisfaction of the shareholders"

https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/equities/friedman-doctrine/

DPReview and Consumer Camera Industry in general are at the end of life. Phones, AI, and computational photography will kill the significant portion of the remaining prosumer market soon too, as it is evident by numerous size v/s IQ discussions on this forum. It is a dying industry. Enjoy while you have the remnants of the past still lingering around.

The end of photography is not near. Just changing as it always has. In fact, it is well known more and more people are taking photos and video now than ever.

DPR is shutting down because FREE always runs out of other people’s money eventually.

Smartphones are the much better point & shoot products people buy and use for years now. Enthusiasts will continue to buy the latest greatest gear and chat about it on-line and professionals will continue to use whatever tools they can to deliver to their clients to include AI and computational right alongside traditional photography gear and techniques.

No end in sight, just change and some will make it through the change(s) and some will not.

Mar 27, 2023 at 10:22 AM

Richie S
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p.11 #16 · p.11 #16 · DPreview shutting down

The problem here is that DPReview is such a weird niche for a company like Amazon to be running. As others have said it's simply not worth it for Amazon to find a buyer for something this small and move it as a going concern.

Mar 27, 2023 at 10:28 AM

chiron
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p.11 #17 · p.11 #17 · DPreview shutting down

Richie S wrote:
The problem here is that DPReview is such a weird niche for a company like Amazon to be running. As others have said it's simply not worth it for Amazon to find a buyer for something this small and move it as a going concern.

Yes, no question that the business models of photography-related businesses will require some adjustment and change. Sometimes this will be hard, as in dpreview. But sometimes it might be to the advantage of photographers--I don't know of any weddings where there was not at least one paid photographer, and a decline in the consumer popularity of cameras might over time be good for the wedding photography business and other event photography. Same for real estate photography and even portrait photography. It may become more of a profession again. Certainly, advertising and fashion and fine art photography aren't going to diminish as professional activities.

Mar 27, 2023 at 10:40 AM

Ross Martin
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p.11 #18 · p.11 #18 · DPreview shutting down

chiron wrote:
Yes, no question that the business models of photography-related businesses will require some adjustment and change. Sometimes this will be hard, as in dpreview. But sometimes it might be to the advantage of photographers--I don't know of any weddings where there was not at least one paid photographer, and a decline in the consumer popularity of cameras might over time be good for the wedding photography business and other event photography. Same for real estate photography and even portrait photography. It may become more of a profession again. Certainly, advertising and fashion and fine art photography aren't going to diminish...Show more →

I think this is a valid perspective, thanks for sharing your thoughts. i agree that there will be opportunity for skilled professionals in a variety of genres to demonstrate why there services and their images can be valuable and worth paying for in a cell-phone-shooting world.

Mar 27, 2023 at 11:08 AM

jwpstl
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p.11 #19 · p.11 #19 · DPreview shutting down

chiron wrote:
Certainly, advertising and fashion and fine art photography aren't going to diminish as professional activities.

I think AI has the potential to seriously diminish advertising and fashion photography as professions.

Mar 27, 2023 at 11:09 AM

MARKFER
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p.11 #20 · p.11 #20 · DPreview shutting down

Amazon foresaw Dpreview as a possibility of being something far different than what it turned out to be. An imaging marketplace linking with their core technology sales. It never became that. It was just a place to go bs or complain with some good content intermixed. Why would it not be the first thing to cut for them? As with any recent death we ruminate about the persons or things life. Truth is taking them out of the mix is a good thing. Mix the pot some, create new places to go and to learn.

Mar 27, 2023 at 11:11 AM

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