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Archive 2022 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4

  
 
Sharona
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p.5 #1 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4


Huh. That's not good. I've never had that happen with B&H, but at the very least, they will take it back. (And I do mean very least. It shouldn't happen.)

I could go into a long and ugly diatribe about my local camera store, but I will just say this: Their customer service is non-existent. I would happily buy from them (and I did buy a camera bag once) but I've had enough outrageously bad experiences there, that when it comes to expensive things like lenses and cameras, I head to B&H. I have never had a bad experience with them; when I got a monitor that seemed defective to me, they paid for the return and sent another one out. I know if something isn't right they will make it so.

I love the idea of shopping locally and I do so in many instances. But really, please lower your pedestals. Sometimes the only way to know if something works for you is to buy it. If it doesn't work for you, you return it. It's the way of the world and for many people, it's the only option.



Dec 19, 2022 at 12:28 PM
RoamingScott
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p.5 #2 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4


fotografur wrote:
Ouch Scott. That's pretty harsh.

Let's get in the Holiday spirit 🎄





Dec 19, 2022 at 12:30 PM
fotografur
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p.5 #3 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4


RoamingScott wrote:
https://media3.giphy.com/media/x7gjmBuaHrWak/giphy.gif


You wait. Come Christmas morning your heart is going to grow 2X !



Dec 19, 2022 at 12:33 PM
RoamingScott
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p.5 #4 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4


fotografur wrote:
You wait. Come Christmas morning your heart is going to grow 2X !


These covid side effects are getting worse and worse!



Dec 19, 2022 at 12:41 PM
genjy
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p.5 #5 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4


I always buy expensive lenses from B&H (and KEH as well for used lenses). Sometimes lenses are soft or decentered... I just ship them back to B&H for free. No hassle. I wouldn't want to put my local camera shops through that kind of torture, and what if they refused exchange or refund? Then I would end up getting screwed.

I try my best not to buy lenses from individuals over here at the B&S board too for the same reason.

Sharona wrote:
Huh. That's not good. I've never had that happen with B&H, but at the very least, they will take it back. (And I do mean very least. It shouldn't happen.)

I could go into a long and ugly diatribe about my local camera store, but I will just say this: Their customer service is non-existent. I would happily buy from them (and I did buy a camera bag once) but I've had enough outrageously bad experiences there, that when it comes to expensive things like lenses and cameras, I head to B&H. I have never had a bad experience with
...Show more



Dec 19, 2022 at 03:01 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.5 #6 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4


Trying to help keep the thread on the XT subject...

As circumstances allow, I'll continue to share a few files that may help answer some questions about the performance of the XT5. I'm now about a week into owning mine. I still have not had an opportunity to do much "serious" photography with it, but I have made a few photographs as I learn the new system.

Some have asked whether or not it is worth having a 40MP sensor with the APS-C camera and some of Fujifilm's lenses. (The general question has been answered previously by folks with far more technical background than I have, and the answer is yes.)

Here's a 100% crop exported as a .jpg out of Photoshop. The image here is a small section from near the middle of the exposure. It comes from a photograph shot handheld on the XT5 with the 27mm f/2.8 r wr lens. ISO 125, 1/320 second, f/8. The file is 1088 x 1088 at 360 dpi.

(At this resolution, the crop would produce a print of approx. 3" square. You can download and print at those dimensions if you want to see what a print would look like. If you want to see what it would look like at other ppi settings, keep the pixel dimensions the same and change the "resolution" value when you print.. BTW, the uninterpolated print of the original FULL image at this resolution would be about 13" x 17.5.")

As before, this is not presented as an example of great photography, just as an example of what files from the camera can look like. If you are looking for detail, I recommend looking at the holiday lights, both the individual lights and the braided electrical wire. Some of the other little odds and ends on the fascia are also quite small.

https://gallery.gdanmitchell.com/gallery/var/resizes/HumanWorld/Unclassified/Misc-Demo-Images/PizzaJacksNumber220221218.jpg

Edited on Dec 19, 2022 at 04:49 PM · View previous versions



Dec 19, 2022 at 03:31 PM
RoamingScott
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p.5 #7 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4


genjy wrote:
I always buy expensive lenses from B&H (and KEH as well for used lenses). Sometimes lenses are soft or decentered... I just ship them back to B&H for free. No hassle. I wouldn't want to put my local camera shops through that kind of torture, and what if they refused exchange or refund? Then I would end up getting screwed.

I try my best not to buy lenses from individuals over here at the B&S board too for the same reason.



My local-ish store is the best of both worlds. I had a $2700 lens that had some marked sharpness issues at the long end and they happily exchanged in store the next day. He took the 2nd lens out of the box and told me to shoot it outside to make sure I was happy before I left. The smaller shops live and die by customer service.

I've been curious if B&H has an unspoken "strike" count for their customers, before they stop accepting returns/swaps. Amazon certainly does.



Dec 19, 2022 at 04:44 PM
jakelindsay
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p.5 #8 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4


JustShootMe wrote:



Good video find. To my eye, the X-T5 files look slightly bigger (more resolution) and the X-T4 images look sharper and crisper. In pretty much every example in this video I feel that is the case. ISO performance seems really close - which is a win for the X-T5, imo.

I give a slight edge for overall IQ to the X-T4 but the end of the day, both look perfectly acceptable for my use case so I'm happy with my X-H2.



Dec 19, 2022 at 04:47 PM
mdude85
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p.5 #9 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4


RoamingScott wrote:
Uploading direct to FM isn’t a valid showcase of these, given how much the site will compress them. You’d need to host externally and embed.



If we're talking about 100% crops here (no resizing), I think the question is whether the compression actually degrades the image quality to a degree that anyone would notice. If not, then it doesn't really matter if the images are compressed.



Dec 19, 2022 at 04:55 PM
JustShootMe
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p.5 #10 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4


gunmetal wrote:
Good video find. To my eye, the X-T5 files look slightly bigger (more resolution) and the X-T4 images look sharper and crisper. In pretty much every example in this video I feel that is the case. ISO performance seems really close - which is a win for the X-T5, imo.

I give a slight edge for overall IQ to the X-T4 but the end of the day, both look perfectly acceptable for my use case so I'm happy with my X-H2.


wish I still owned an older body to test what you are seeing , maybe I'll borrow one and throw some macro lenses at them.

Regardless of all the photo talk, I'm most impressed by some of the videos I see being created with this gear.



Edited on Dec 19, 2022 at 08:25 PM · View previous versions



Dec 19, 2022 at 05:41 PM
bobby350z
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p.5 #11 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4


RoamingScott wrote:
It's not quite that simple, as of course FF has better AF, IBIS, more lens options, less weight, etc. But yes, there are lots of good options that aren't Fuji APS-C.


You don't need AF, IBIS for these things "camera for landscape/non action applications". Weight is also that not much more than FF counter parts.




Dec 19, 2022 at 07:14 PM
chez
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p.5 #12 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4




bobby350z wrote:
You don't need AF, IBIS for these things "camera for landscape/non action applications". Weight is also that not much more than FF counter parts.



What advantage do you see using a 50r over a Sony A7R4? I know with the Sony you have a great number of lenses from 10mm right up to 600mm. That in itself is a big advantage and one that keeps me using Sony for my landscapes.



Dec 19, 2022 at 07:35 PM
RoamingScott
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p.5 #13 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4


JustShootMe wrote:
wish I still owned an older body to test what you are seeing , maybe I'll borrow one and throw some macro lenses at them.

Regardless of all the photo talk, I'm most impressed by some of the videos I see being created with this gear.



Would love to see some BTS on this, a lot more goes into making videos like this than most people would think.



Dec 19, 2022 at 08:33 PM
bobby350z
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p.5 #14 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4


chez wrote:
What advantage do you see using a 50r over a Sony A7R4? I know with the Sony you have a great number of lenses from 10mm right up to 600mm. That in itself is a big advantage and one that keeps me using Sony for my landscapes.


I had A7r4 for 2+ yrs with GFX50s and GFX50s was better in picture quality. None of you have shot them side by side. I don't need 10mm to 600mm for landscapes but then I am just a hobbyist. Existing GF 23mm, 20-35mm, 35-50mm, 45-100mm, 110mm, 250mm with 1.4xTC cover me well and then I add my Canon 24mm TSE, 50mm TSE and 90mm TSE when I want something different than all normal wide angle FF crowd.



Dec 19, 2022 at 11:26 PM
DaveB88
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p.5 #15 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4


For me, what makes the XT5 (or XH2) worth owning is the superior way it captures light. The more natural tone and texture of materials are more believable imo. You can tell that it is a modern sensor, as soon as you start working with the files. The quality of the files is what makes it special to me. 'Truer to reality' and a dream to work with. It just makes me want to go out and shoot more. I would like the AF to be better (maybe a firmware upgrade down the line) but I love what this camera delivers when I get it right.

Also, match it with a modern lens like the 33mm f1.4, for instance. Do a back-lit shoot and see the difference when you start work in Capture One (or whatever your chosen software is). This combination captures light in a different way to what I have come to expect from the X system using X100, XPro3, XT4.

I feel lucky to have a tool like this and I don't think I am overstating it to say, it has enhanced my love of photography.



Dec 21, 2022 at 10:40 AM
RoamingScott
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p.5 #16 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4




Another day, another video that shows how the 40mp Fuji sensor is just a spec sheet bullet.



Dec 23, 2022 at 10:06 PM
rbf_
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p.5 #17 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4


RoamingScott wrote:



Another day, another video that shows how the 40mp Fuji sensor is just a spec sheet bullet.


I would expect more diffraction from the 40mp sensor and he's stopped all the way down to f/7 which is probably well into diffraction on both sensors. Most of the reviews showing issues seem to be with the AF/eye detect missing on the 40mp sensors and one of the reviewers has said he didn't notice the same in video eye detect. I suspect/hope the issues are software related as all this was tuned first for a XH2S stacked sensor.



Dec 23, 2022 at 10:33 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.5 #18 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4


The above-mentioned video has a major problem. I'm surprised that anyone doing such a comparison would not know this.

I'm sorry, but this is not going to be short. But it is important, and it addresses a very common fallacy about using 100% crops to compare camera "sharpness." Anyone using 100% crops to compare sharpness needs to understand this.

- - -

MAIN POINT UP FRONT: Evaluating sharpness of sensors with differing MP by comparing 100% crops will always favor the lower MP sensor. It is a fundamentally flawed comparison in all cases.

- - -

I know it seems like "looking at 100% crops" should be the best, most accurate way to compare sharpness. Unfortunately, it turns out that it is pretty much the worst and least accurate way to evaluate comparative sharpness of different systems unless they use both use the same format and the same sensor pixel dimensions.

When comparing 100% crops from cameras with sensors that have different MP resolution and therefore different pixel dimensions, the 100% magnification crop from the higher MP camera is equivalent to looking more closely at its image than that of the lower MP sensor. (The problem and the confusion it creates has been around for a long time. Over a decade ago I wrote an article explaining it... back when we were comparing much lower resolutions: WHY YOUR 21MP FILE “LOOKS SOFTER” THAN YOUR 12MP FILE AT 100% MAGNIFICATION.)

Let's compare two cameras whose pixel dimensions just happen to match those of the XT4 and the XT5. Let's say that the lower MP camera has pixel dimensions of 6240 x 4160 and the higher MP camera has 7728 x 5152 pixels. (Yes, these numbers represent the XT4 and XT5/XH2.)

Let's look at 1000 x 1000 pixel 100% magnification crops from both cameras. Both crops will be exactly the same size on your screen. But: We should expect the 100% crop from the higher MP system to look softer.

Wait! What? Doesn't that mean that the higher MP camera is softer?

No. It does not.

It is at least as sharp and probably sharper.

In the first case the crop is approximately 15.6% of the image width. In the second the "same" 1000 x 1000 pixel 100% crop is only 13%% of the image width.

That's significant. Keep reading.

Let's say that you used exactly the same lens, same aperture, same shutter speed, same focus, same everything in both cases. If they were equally sharp - and in optical terms they would be identical — the higher MP 100% magnification crop will look slightly less sharp... not because the lens became less sharp or because the sensor is somehow less sharp, but because...

... you are looking more closely at a smaller section of the image.

In fact, you are looking at about a 20% wider section of the sensor in the case of the lower MP sensor, which is significant.(For comparisons, that is almost as big as the percentage width difference between a 36mm wide FF sensor and a 44mm wide miniMF sensor.)

Essentially, this is like looking at a piece of film with a magnifying lens and pronouncing it sharp... then picking up a more powerful magnification lens, looking at the same piece of film a bit closer and now stating that the film became less sharp. ;-)

Comparing sharpness on screens is tricky business, full of all kinds of traps. The 100% crop comparison is one of the most familiar. Another is resizing one of the two compared images to supposedly adjust for its different pixel dimensions. The problem here is that now you are comparing an "interpolated" image against an uninterpolated image. Guess which one gets degraded... and which one doesn't? Either way, the comparison is not valid.

How then to compare them? Not the way it is done in the video, that's for sure. (I don't mean to insult the gentleman doing the review. These things are hard, and the errors are pretty common.)

One option is to compare prints since typically printing at some given size will at least require both images to be interpolated. In addition, it is a real-world comparison. This isn't the only option, but it is the one in which it is easiest to overcome the problems with comparing on-screen.

Or one can just look at images from the target camera on their own and ask, "Is it sharp?"

By the way, this problem crops up in other ways, too. For example...

rbf_ wrote:
I would expect more diffraction from the 40mp sensor...


Nope.

At a given aperture on a APS-C camera there is exactly the same amount of diffraction whether you use s 6MP sensor, a 26MP sensor, a 40MP sensor, or a 400MP sensor. Diffraction is an optical phenomenon and it does not change with sensor resolution.

If you take a 26MP camera and a 40MP camera that are otherwise identical, fit them with exactly the same lens, and use precisely the same settings...

... they will produce exactly the same amount of diffraction blur at any aperture. If you make, for example, a 20" x 30" print from both, the effect of diffraction on each will be identical, regardless of the aperture used. There is no diffraction disadvantage for the higher MP system.

However (#1)..

... if you use an excellent lens, control for camera vibration, focus carefully, and so forth, you might get a bit more sharpness at a slightly larger ideal "diffraction-limited" aperture on the higher MP system.

However (#2)...

... if you compare 100% crops (see above!) you will be, again, looking more closely at a smaller section of the image from the higher MP sample, tricking the unwary into imagining that the diffraction is "larger" if you forget about the problem with 100% crop comparisons.

In the end, the higher MP system will always be at least as sharp as the lower MP system, and in ideal situations it may be a bit sharper. Increasing photo site density does NOT ever reduce the sharpness of the image.

Key point: If all else remains the same, INCREASING MP NEVER MAKES THE IMAGE SOFTER

Edited on Dec 24, 2022 at 12:24 PM · View previous versions



Dec 23, 2022 at 11:52 PM
DaveB88
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p.5 #19 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4


The only meaningful screen test would be viewed at 8K imo. Even viewing at 4K is compromised in a true test.

I do my PP on Capture One at relatively lowly 4K but the tone and texture of materials is superior than the XT4. It is simply more true to life and believable. Then when you work with the files you find you can be quite aggressive with contrast and clarity slider if necessary but still maintaining believable surface texture for all materials in the photograph. This is simply not true of the 26mp sensor imo. It used to drive me crazy just trying to get wood looking like 'real' wood, metal like metal, stone like stone etc. This sensor provides a significant improvement in that area and would benefit pro Architectual and Product photographers imo.

I say to anyone considering the XT5, rent the camera out and try for yourself before you buy. Work with the full size RAW files. See for yourself.



Dec 24, 2022 at 06:41 AM
JustShootMe
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p.5 #20 · I returned the X-T5 and kept the X-T4


Im about 10k images in between the two cameras. My thought is, as with other high megapixel cameras , this sensor is unforgiving. Flaws in your technique will show up faster and result in blurry or muddy looking images. Proper technique and enough light and the cameras will shine.







handheld @ 900mm equiv







100% crop C1 export




Dec 24, 2022 at 08:22 AM
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