Dan. I LOVE the XPro style of camera (and Leica M) but it's becoming less usable for me because the lenses have grown a bit. The XT is even close to being too small with some of the new primes. Especially the faster ones.
I still have the original 35mm 1.4 and 56mm APD plus the new versions. I much prefer the size and fit of the older lenses but there's no denying that the optics on the newer lenses has improved a lot. And now wer'e playing with 40MP that improvement helps even more. Even the 30mm macro is a bit bigger than I thought it might be.
Lenses are growing (except bizzarrely for Hasselblad where they're getting samller and faster??). 24x36mm fast glass is getting to obscene sizes (thanks for starting that trend Zeiss...). Optics are getting better with more detail from even lower resolution sensors and less aberations. It's all great. But it does affect balance.
I can't stand an unbalanced camera. One of my main reasons for not shooting Sony. Huge lenses on tiny bodies leads to hand/wrist fatigue and compromised handling. The old 56 was already close to the limit on the XPro2 for me. I don't like the new on on it at all. It's now like that on the XT5. It's the reason I have the XT5 and XH2. The XH2 is for the bigger lenses like the zooms and maybe even the 56mm and 90.
I hope Fuji do make an XPro4. I'm just not sure I'll buy all the lovely f2 primes to make it usable, for me. They're certainly not better than the f2 glass I already have on my M11 and all the XPro would offer is AF and IBIS. Which I only need some of the time. I'll probably have to spend some time in store (no easy returns here... wow, I linked to the topic. ) to see if the camera works with the lenses I want to use on it. Maybe the optional grip will make it better. But for now the XT5 does work and leaves me wanting for little.
The lens size issue has concerned me for some time. I've posted about it here, and perhaps you've run into those posts. As example, the 33mm f/1.4 is enough larger than the svelte 35mm f/1.4 that the newer lens's technical improvments are offset by increases in price, size, and weight for my purposes. This has been the case with some of the other newer, larger lenses.
However, I also have to admit that for now there is still a quite good selection of smaller, lighter lenses that also perform really well. The older 18mm lens is a near-pancake, the 27mm f/2.8 is very good and very small, and that whole series of f/2 "Fujicron" primes is available. So as long as Fujifilm keeps those around, I guess I can't complain too much about the bigger lenses. (I own one of those, too, the excellent 80mm f/2.8 macro...)
Having said that, I do wonder if a small-market-share company like Fujifilm can afford quite this diversity of lenses.
I respond differently that you to the small body with large lens issue. I actually am perfectly fine with big lenses on small camera bodies. I won't go into the whole explanation here, but I don't view these combinations as being unbalanced.
I'm already set up, of course, with a set of lenses that works quite nicely on the XPro2 and which would work fine on any 40MP XPro4 that might arrive. But one of the other things I've always liked about the XPro concept is that the cameras work equally well with typical small street photography-orented lenses... and any of the larger lenses in the Fujifilm line. I use the 16-55, 50-140, and the 80mm macro on mine at times.
NOW back on topic... maybe...
It starts to sound like the XT5 is a fine camera and nice upgrade, but that current XT4 owners may not feel quite so compelling to get it. That makes sense to me.
dave unwin wrote:
In Australia at least, camera retailers don't offer a no questions asked return policy. If it's opened there would typically be a restocking fee of 20% or so if they'd take it at all. It certainly does seem like an unusual concept for high $ items like cameras.
B&H can charge a restocking fee of 15% but that's only if the item isn't returned in the same condition as sold.
Adorama does not usually charge restocking fees, and of course, Amazon doesn't either.
Makten wrote:
Why do people order stuff they don't need, then "play" with it, and return it? So that the store either has to sell a used camera or send it back to the manufacturer to make sure it's as good as new, and get new packaging. Isn't that kind of selfish?
Online stores have mostly destroyed the Mom and Pop business. The nearest camera store to me is over 4 hours drive away. So my options are to take a full days drive, there and back, to buy a camera, or buy from an online giant. The only way to get my hands on a new camera on release day, then, is to order from an online giant. If I don’t like it, I’m certainly not going to keep it.
But look at the return policies - I pay return postage and need to return the camera in OOB condition. They’ve built this new market reality into their business model.
I'm enjoying the XT-5 so far. I don't push the iso and don't do much shooting in very dark conditions. I like the added resolution. I've had a couple Xpro1's and still have a coupla XPro2's. This is my first XT body, so I can't complain about comparing it to the predecessors. I've always been happy with Fujifilm camera systems, and still own 5 Fuji bodies. I added the new 30mm macro, the 16-80 and the 150-600 (coming in this week.)
tmoseley1 wrote:
Online stores have mostly destroyed the Mom and Pop business. The nearest camera store to me is over 4 hours drive away. So my options are to take a full days drive, there and back, to buy a camera, or buy from an online giant. The only way to get my hands on a new camera on release day, then, is to order from an online giant. If I don’t like it, I’m certainly not going to keep it.
But look at the return policies - I pay return postage and need to return the camera in OOB condition. They’ve built this new market reality into their business model....Show more →
A lot of online stores are also retail shops. Many have been around long before the internet. When the large Samy's Camera store in my town closed a few years ago, I kept doing business with their stores all over the LA area and their extensive website. Fortunately for me, my salesman there still handles sales to my area and ships next day or delivers personally. Doesn't hurt that I've been buying from him since the mid 90'!
Thanks for sharing your experience. I am looking at upgrading to the X-T5 or the X-H line. I think the X-T4 is great camera, but would like the newest autofocus. I shoot alot of action, and video so Im trying to decide if the autofocus is really worth the cost in price.
tmoseley1 wrote:
Online stores have mostly destroyed the Mom and Pop business. The nearest camera store to me is over 4 hours drive away. So my options are to take a full days drive, there and back, to buy a camera, or buy from an online giant. The only way to get my hands on a new camera on release day, then, is to order from an online giant. If I don’t like it, I’m certainly not going to keep it.
Agreed. There are no camera stores where I live, and even ones in "major" cities a few hours away are unlikely to stock a full line of Fuji gear.
I started out my career buying everything at a very small local shop, then kept shopping at local camera stores as we moved to larger towns. But they slowly went out of business. Even ten years ago I looked forward to visiting my in-laws in the Washington, DC area so I could go to a real camera store, but now that's gone too.
The large online retailers are perfectly content to have eliminated the local shops, where I could handle a camera or lens and make a decision. They can deal with a return if I decide not to keep something.
gdanmitchell wrote:
Continuing off topic. Hey, I blame you! ;-)
The lens size issue has concerned me for some time. I've posted about it here, and perhaps you've run into those posts. As example, the 33mm f/1.4 is enough larger than the svelte 35mm f/1.4 that the newer lens's technical improvments are offset by increases in price, size, and weight for my purposes. This has been the case with some of the other newer, larger lenses.
However, I also have to admit that for now there is still a quite good selection of smaller, lighter lenses that also perform really well. The older 18mm lens is a near-pancake, the 27mm f/2.8 is very good and very small, and that whole series of f/2 "Fujicron" primes is available. So as long as Fujifilm keeps those around, I guess I can't complain too much about the bigger lenses. (I own one of those, too, the excellent 80mm f/2.8 macro...)
Having said that, I do wonder if a small-market-share company like Fujifilm can afford quite this diversity of lenses.
I respond differently that you to the small body with large lens issue. I actually am perfectly fine with big lenses on small camera bodies. I won't go into the whole explanation here, but I don't view these combinations as being unbalanced.
I'm already set up, of course, with a set of lenses that works quite nicely on the XPro2 and which would work fine on any 40MP XPro4 that might arrive. But one of the other things I've always liked about the XPro concept is that the cameras work equally well with typical small street photography-orented lenses... and any of the larger lenses in the Fujifilm line. I use the 16-55, 50-140, and the 80mm macro on mine at times.
NOW back on topic... maybe...
It starts to sound like the XT5 is a fine camera and nice upgrade, but that current XT4 owners may not feel quite so compelling to get it. That makes sense to me....Show more →
The diversity of lenses and bodies and one thing I love about the X system. The XF 27 has become my on the camera lens for my XT5 and the GF 50 on my GFX, how convenient. I wouldn't worry about the market share and lens diversity as the last few quarterly reports (including one in Nov/2022) have shown increased profit and sales yet again. Increased sales and profit in a declining market (with Covid supply issues and whatnot) is a great sign. Sometimes it's better to have a smaller market share and be a smaller, leaner and nimbler organization. They got through the film apocalypse and I think they'll survive this one as well
tmoseley1 wrote:
Online stores have mostly destroyed the Mom and Pop business. The nearest camera store to me is over 4 hours drive away. So my options are to take a full days drive, there and back, to buy a camera, or buy from an online giant. The only way to get my hands on a new camera on release day, then, is to order from an online giant. If I don’t like it, I’m certainly not going to keep it.
But look at the return policies - I pay return postage and need to return the camera in OOB condition. They’ve built this new market reality into their business model....Show more →
It's mostly the same over here, but it doesn't mean you can't find out most of what you need to know prior to ordering. I've bought a ton of photo gear online and not once returned an item. If I don't like something (I mostly don't), I will resell it.
Edit: The reason for online stores taking over, is that people don't want to pay extra for what it costs to run a physical store. It's not the online stores fault. The ones "destroying mom and pop business" are people buying from online stores.
FrugalStew wrote:
Thanks for sharing your experience. I am looking at upgrading to the X-T5 or the X-H line. I think the X-T4 is great camera, but would like the newest autofocus. I shoot alot of action, and video so Im trying to decide if the autofocus is really worth the cost in price.
Thank you. My purpose of the post is to share my experience and thought with people who are thinking about upgrading to X-T5, especially for those who owns X-T4. Unfortunately, I got accusations from those "moral police" for being "selfish" "immoral" "unethical" because I returned the camera. I checked my BH purchase history. I have purchased over $50k camera and lighting fears from them in the pst years and only returned 2 or 3 items. I think I am a normal customer.
Jeffrey wrote:
I'm enjoying the XT-5 so far. I don't push the iso and don't do much shooting in very dark conditions. I like the added resolution. I've had a couple Xpro1's and still have a coupla XPro2's. This is my first XT body, so I can't complain about comparing it to the predecessors. I've always been happy with Fujifilm camera systems, and still own 5 Fuji bodies. I added the new 30mm macro, the 16-80 and the 150-600 (coming in this week.)
tmoseley1 wrote:
Online stores have mostly destroyed the Mom and Pop business. The nearest camera store to me is over 4 hours drive away. So my options are to take a full days drive, there and back, to buy a camera, or buy from an online giant. The only way to get my hands on a new camera on release day, then, is to order from an online giant. If I don’t like it, I’m certainly not going to keep it.
But look at the return policies - I pay return postage and need to return the camera in OOB condition. They’ve built this new market reality into their business model....Show more →
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kenbennett wrote:
Agreed. There are no camera stores where I live, and even ones in "major" cities a few hours away are unlikely to stock a full line of Fuji gear.
I started out my career buying everything at a very small local shop, then kept shopping at local camera stores as we moved to larger towns. But they slowly went out of business. Even ten years ago I looked forward to visiting my in-laws in the Washington, DC area so I could go to a real camera store, but now that's gone too.
The large online retailers are perfectly content to have eliminated the local shops, where I could handle a camera or lens and make a decision. They can deal with a return if I decide not to keep something. ...Show more →
I see this sentiment posted a lot, but really it's just ignorance on the part of the consumer. I buy almost exclusively from small stores sprinkled across the US who offer nationwide shipping. The prices are the same as B&H, shipping is sometimes just as fast, and often the customer service is better because it's a small shop that can't afford to lose a customer like a big online store can.
I also get my new release gear on release day because I have built a relationship with these dealers and the wait list at a small local shop is far shorter than B&H.
All that said, I probably wouldn't order something I thought I might return from a small shop...that's what abusing the big players is for.
Makten wrote:
All that said, I probably wouldn't order something I thought I might return from a small shop...that's what abusing the big players is for.
It's not abuse. It's part of doing business in the new world as we know it. Online dealers allot budget and people to the returns dept, but that's way less costly than sales people on the floor. When there is no opportunity to try on a piece of clothing or shoes because I can not find it locally, I'll often but two sizes and then return the one that doesn't fit. For the online retailer, that is a cheaper way to almost guarantee a sale than having an employee spend 20 minutes with the customer, as well as the rent and utilities to keep the store open. If you've ever owned a small business that required a business location and a few employees, you understand. I didn't even mention the insurance, taxes, health care benefits, insurance, landlords, insurance, and lack of skilled labor. Did I mention insurance? The gouging costs of these things collectively is what ruined American retail and manufacturing
Jeffrey wrote:
It's not abuse. It's part of doing business in the new world as we know it. Online dealers allot budget and people to the returns dept, but that's way less costly than sales people on the floor. When there is no opportunity to try on a piece of clothing or shoes because I can not find it locally, I'll often but two sizes and then return the one that doesn't fit. For the online retailer, that is a cheaper way to almost guarantee a sale than having an employee spend 20 minutes with the customer, as well as the rent and utilities to keep the store open. If you've ever owned a small business that required a business location and a few employees, you understand. I didn't even mention the insurance, taxes, health care benefits, insurance, landlords, insurance, and lack of skilled labor. Did I mention insurance? The gouging costs of these things collectively is what ruined American retail and manufacturing...Show more →
Jeffrey wrote:
It's not abuse. It's part of doing business in the new world as we know it. Online dealers allot budget and people to the returns dept, but that's way less costly than sales people on the floor. When there is no opportunity to try on a piece of clothing or shoes because I can not find it locally, I'll often but two sizes and then return the one that doesn't fit. For the online retailer, that is a cheaper way to almost guarantee a sale than having an employee spend 20 minutes with the customer, as well as the rent and utilities to keep the store open. If you've ever owned a small business that required a business location and a few employees, you understand. I didn't even mention the insurance, taxes, health care benefits, insurance, landlords, insurance, and lack of skilled labor. Did I mention insurance? The gouging costs of these things collectively is what ruined American retail and manufacturing...Show more →
Call generating unneeded labor for wage slaves whatever you want. Ordering multitudes of items that you know you won't use, in your example, certainly puts a strain on the actual humans doing the work.
Off topic distribution model discussion aside, no one has any excuse from not ordering their gear from a mom and pop store that offers nationwide shipping if they actually care about keeping those shops open. DM me and I can give you a list of recommended ones.
RoamingScott wrote:
no one has any excuse from not ordering their gear from a mom and pop store that offers nationwide shipping if they actually care about keeping those shops open. DM me and I can give you a list of recommended ones.
Too often these days:
"I love amazon, I buy everything there"
"I can't believe that mom and pop shop on the corner closed!"
RoamingScott wrote:
Call generating unneeded labor for wage slaves whatever you want. Ordering multitudes of items that you know you won't use, in your example, certainly puts a strain on the actual humans doing the work.
Off topic distribution model discussion aside, no one has any excuse from not ordering their gear from a mom and pop store that offers nationwide shipping if they actually care about keeping those shops open. DM me and I can give you a list of recommended ones.
Multitudes?? That certainly does not describe my example. Man, your attitude is showing...It's just a pair of shoes now and then.. Unneeded labor for wage slaves? WTF are you talking about? Are you out of work or perhaps unemployable?
I actually work in distribution and understand the market pretty well!
Jeffrey wrote:
Multitudes?? That certainly does not describe my example. Man, your attitude is showing...It's just a pair of shoes now and then.. Unneeded labor for wage slaves? WTF are you talking about? Are you out of work or perhaps unemployable?
I am on that fence. I have looked, read reviews, over and over, from Canon to Leica to Lumix, and everything in between.
I have a x-t2 and several primes. and the 55-200. So I ma pretty much will stay with fuji and add maybe the 10-24 lens.
Now the IBIS, Fuji specs states its only on Movie mode?? Is that righ?
The 10-24 has its own IS, so that's not a problem, but what about the primes on the camera?
tach18k wrote:
I am on that fence. I have looked, read reviews, over and over, from Canon to Leica to Lumix, and everything in between.
I have a x-t2 and several primes. and the 55-200. So I ma pretty much will stay with fuji and add maybe the 10-24 lens.
Now the IBIS, Fuji specs states its only on Movie mode?? Is that righ?
The 10-24 has its own IS, so that's not a problem, but what about the primes on the camera?
That's definitely not correct. The IBIS functions very well for stills. Up to 7 stops, reportedly. And I can confirm it's very effective in my initial indoor testing with non-OIS primes, like the 23/1.4 and 16/1.4.
) to see if the camera works with the lenses I want to use on it. Maybe the optional grip will make it better. But for now the XT5 does work and leaves me wanting for little.
