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Archive 2022 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following f...

  
 
rscheffler
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p.1 #1 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


Updated with posts starting in early Dec. 2022 to include experiences with the new R6II vs. the R6 and R5


Hi all: I'm part-way through borrowing all of the current R cameras from CPS to evaluate for my various photographic requirements.

One segment of my work is photographing sports. This can range from youth to professional levels. The first camera I tried was the R3. Yes, I started with the best first, in part because it's closest in many ways to the 1DX series cameras I currently use. It didn't disappoint and was generally superior to the 1DX series in most ways. I usually had no trouble following fast action, such as at football games, shooting e-shutter at 15 or 30fps. While the EVF image may not have been perfectly smooth, it was more than good enough.

I'm currently trying the R6 and shot a football game with it yesterday. In short, I was surprised I liked it and that it worked much better than I expected. Specifically, I thought the R6's AF performance was closer to the R3s than expected and much more consistent over long bursts than my 1DXII.

But there were two notable areas in which I felt it was considerably worse than the R3: rolling shutter (no surprise) and EVF stutter/lagginess (yes, I had EVF set to smooth rather than power savings). For football, rolling shutter was acceptable. I have a few photos of flattened balls, but didn't notice any obvious limb distortions, etc. When reviewing long bursts of a player suddenly changing direction, if shot vertically, I noticed side to side 'compression' of the background in a frame or two as I tried to keep up with their erratic movement. But those frames viewed individually would not stand out as problematic. I did try EFCS for about 30 seconds and immediately switched to e-shutter for the rest of the game. In EFCS, EVF blackout/stutter/lag was so obnoxious I could barely keep track of action. It was better and usable in e-shutter, but any time I did long bursts of action moving across my field of view, rather than coming directly at me, I felt like I was always falling behind the subject the longer the burst. In the viewfinder the action looked like an old 1900s hand-cranked silent movie that kept getting faster and faster causing me to fall further and further behind the subject, until they suddenly changed direction and then I overshot and lost numerous frames trying to come back and find them again. I guess this is due to still frame insertions into the live EVF feed?

So the point of this introduction is it's got me wondering, in respect to action/sports work, if the R5, which I have not yet tried, might be the 'goldilocks' middle ground between the sheer performance of the R3 and the affordability of the R6?

For those who have shot action with a couple of these cameras, or ideally all three, is the R5's EVF stutter/lag between the R3 and R6, or closer to one than the other?

Where does the R5's rolling shutter sit? My thoughts are that with the additional pixels of the R5, if shooting a bit looser than needed with the other two cameras, sensor scan speed over the area actually occupied by the smaller subject would be faster than filling the frame, which could be an additional boost in this respect to nudge it closer to the rolling shutter performance of the R3.

The appeal of the R6 is price point and AF performance that is already better than what I usually get with the 1DXII. I could live with 20MP for most of my requirements. But the EVF performance bothers me (more than rolling shutter).

The appeal of the R5 is that it offers more versatility than the R6, such as potentially better rolling shutter performance. The additional pixels allow some framing/cropping flexibility. Or in some situations, I could use it in APS-C crop and have image resolution similar to the 1DXII/R6. This would basically be a built-in 1.6x e-teleconverter. This application could be good for youth sports where I'm often working with an on-site printing company and they don't really need more than 12MP anyway. But the question mark in my mind is will all the advantages of the R5, in respect to shooting sports, be spoiled if its EVF characteristics are mostly similar to the R6?

Of cours the R3 is the most appealing, for my sports needs, but funds are not unlimited. I could buy two R6s and still have money to put towards the 28-70/2 I also want. Or one R5 and the 28-70...

Your feedback would be much appreciated!

Edited on Dec 04, 2022 at 11:12 PM · View previous versions



Oct 03, 2022 at 05:12 PM
garyvot
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p.1 #2 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


I haven't had my R6 long enough to make an intelligent comment here based on shooting experience. (Edit: well, actually I would have except I broke my wrist 6 weeks ago and haven't been able to shoot much yet.)

However, there is a "High Speed Display" setting that interpolates a static frame in between the live view when in H drive mode:

https://cam.start.canon/en/C004/manual/html/UG-03_Shooting-1_0330.html

This does seem to smooth out the viewfinder during bursts at this framerate.

However, this setting might not help as I presume you were using H+? I believe this static frame interpolation is always enabled when in the H+ drive mode.



Oct 03, 2022 at 05:32 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #3 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


Yes, I was using H+ and had the EVF set to 'smooth.' But in e-shutter, there's really no options other than 20(ish) fps and one fps.


Oct 03, 2022 at 05:46 PM
osv2
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p.1 #4 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


evf blackout is determined by the sensor readout speed; many unstacked sensor milc bodies use frame duplication/insertion in the evf to cover up the blackout, but it doesn't help because you still aren't seeing a real-time display in the evf.

the r5 possibly has the fastest readout speed of any unstacked ff camera, but it's not much faster than the r6, aka 17ms vs. 19ms: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1657788/1

the old a9 from 2017 has a readout speed of something like 6.68ms, and the r3 is somewhere in that ballpark, so you can see that it's a pretty big difference from unstacked sensors.



Oct 03, 2022 at 06:15 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #5 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


OK, so that suggests that EVF performance will probably be similar to the R6. I would love to hear from anyone shooting action with both those cameras to confirm if there is a noticeable EVF difference (improvement) with the R5.



Oct 03, 2022 at 06:30 PM
armd
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p.1 #6 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


rscheffler wrote:
OK, so that suggests that EVF performance will probably be similar to the R6. I would love to hear from anyone shooting action with both those cameras to confirm if there is a noticeable EVF difference (improvement) with the R5.


OSV2 is absolutely right and it is difficult comparing the R5 and R3 for this application. The lag of the R5 is more R6.like than similar to the R3. The R5 is not bad and you get used to it after a while but it’s not a BIS. The faster sensor scan rates of the R3 reduce RS and other artifact (scoreboard refresh) better. Do you really need a 45 MP for sports action? I’d rather have the better ergonomics, less lag, longer battery life, etc.



Oct 03, 2022 at 09:40 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #7 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


I don't need 45MP for sports, but sports is not all I do. It's actually in the minority. That said, I've gotten by covering everything with the 20MP 1DXII since 2016, which should indicate that my preference has historically been performance over megapixels.

I guess I just don't want to automatically spend $8K CAD on the R3, though it is the camera I *want,* without at least knowing how the R5 and R6 compare. As mentioned, the R6 kind of surprised me that it was as good as it was. I could live with it, but if the R5 is a little better on the user experience side, with slightly fewer compromises, then it might be worth the additional cost for the range of non-sports applications I would also cover with it.



Oct 03, 2022 at 09:59 PM
ChrisHA
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p.1 #8 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


Pls keep us updated with your thoughts and research. I have always been a dual pro body shooter until I bought the R3 in Dec. which I TOTALLY love. Staying with the Pro body ergonomics was an easy transition and more importantly, I have total confidence in the R3. Now, I want to replace my 1dx2 backup body with a lighter R5 or R6 for travel and struggle with similar EVF concerns, not to mention noise, buffers and ruggedness. I know that if a body is not up to my standards, I won’t use it; i.e. my mistake with the 7DII. For you, don’t forget the need to invest in good CFX cards if you go the R5 route which is a big chunk of change. Fortunately, there’s lots of info in this forum to help with that decision. Best of luck deciding.


Oct 04, 2022 at 04:05 AM
rscheffler
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p.1 #9 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


I'll keep the thread updated. 7DII was also a short experiment for me - just overall disappointed in its performance relative to the 1DXII when I tried it. I felt like I was fighting it while covering sports. But like most cameras, in 'normal' use it was fine.

I already borrowed the R3 for two weeks, and in anticipation of that, purchased an Angelbird AV PRO SE 512GB CFexpress card. It's not in the fastest tier category of CFe cards, but I never maxed out the buffer shooting normal CR2 raw files at football games, rather than the cRAW compressed option. Per GB it's actually less expensive, about $0.35/GB vs. $1/GB, than fast UHS-II SDXC cards. We'll see how things go with that card in the R5, its much larger files and probably smaller buffer, at a football game this weekend. Worst case I will switch to cRAW. Normal raw in the R6 and UHS-II cards at high ISO probably got me a buffer of about 75 shots, which was good enough. So far that one football game with the R6, I felt like its performance was overall very close to the 1DXII. The big differences were the viewfinder experience and ergonomics. As mentioned, the EVF was usable for action, but wasn't ideal. I could see going 1x R3 and 1x R6, but I'd definitely be favoring the R3. Swapping the R6 for an R5 changes the balance somewhat because of its additional resolution, which could be useful for certain lens/reach limited sports applications.

I totally agree with you about favoring a better body over another 'lesser' one... For a while my preference was two identical bodies. It made working with both totally intuitive, and post production was identical, which also saved some time. I'd love to go 2x R3 but it's not in the cards at the moment.



Oct 04, 2022 at 11:14 AM
ramage
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p.1 #10 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


@rscheffler did you have image review turned off on the R6? I never used E-shutter on either my R5 or R6 because I did not want the drop in quality even if it was minor. I have always used EFCS and cannot say I noticed any real blackouts that affected my ability to follow fast action. With the R5 and the R6 you really should just get a blackout after the first image, after that one blackout the Camera is showing you the last image shot so it should be easy to track an object. Only time I have ever had issues tracking objects was humming birds and their erratic movements.

To be fair I was always using as fast a shutter speed as I can push especially on the R5 with the increased pixel density.

With my R3 I have been only using the E-shutter and it works great but I do not find it light years ahead of the R6 or R6. I think having owned and used all R Cameras with the exception of the R7 (on order) and R10 I am pretty much used to EVF's. I even used the Original R for an airshow once, now that was blackout city and really hard to track objects.

Example of tracking with the R5 and EFCS - This is 34 shots all taken using EFCS - Sorry the gif is so small I had to make it fit the size limits









Oct 04, 2022 at 12:11 PM
Andrew J
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p.1 #11 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


rscheffler wrote:
Yes, I was using H+ and had the EVF set to 'smooth.' But in e-shutter, there's really no options other than 20(ish) fps and one fps.


ES mode defaults to 120fps smooth.



Oct 04, 2022 at 12:35 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #12 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


ramage wrote:
@rscheffler@ did you have image review turned off on the R6? I never used E-shutter on either my R5 or R6 because I did not want the drop in quality even if it was minor. I have always used EFCS and cannot say I noticed any real blackouts that affected my ability to follow fast action. With the R5 and the R6 you really should just get a blackout after the first image, after that one blackout the Camera is showing you the last image shot so it should be easy to track an object. Only time I have ever
...Show more

Thanks for your insights. Yes, image review was off. When you used the R5 and R6 side by side, did you notice any difference in EVF performance or responsiveness?

I can appreciate that e-shutter affects dynamic range, but it's more so a problem at lower ISOs and by ISO 800 on both the R5 and R5 there is no longer a difference. For example, PtP R6 vs R6 ES. The R3 e-shutter DR hit is definitely much less and really only a half a stop at ISO 100, after which it decreases.

A lot of the sports I shoot is at high ISOs. Or I'm shooting backlit and at f/4 or f/5.6 and trying to maintain 1/1600 or 1/2000 shutter speed, which pushes ISO into the ISO 800 even on a sunny day.

I also borrowed an R7 and it overlapped with the R3 loaner. I liked the R7 as a general purpose camera but I found it less enjoyable for sports. First off, for me, the body was slightly on the too small side compared to even the R6 and was less comfortable to use with my 200-400. The lack of a grip option was a definite downside, and a factor against it, IMO. It also had EVF blackout/stutter, though I think it was slightly better than what I experienced in EFCS with the R6. I didn't venture into e-shutter shooting sports because of the rolling shutter concern and I only had a limited number of events where I could evaluate the R3, therefore I gave it total priority. I just can't see myself using an R3 type body and R7 together for sports due to the considerably different UI/UX. Now if Canon releases an R7 'Pro' in a body similar to the R3...

Thanks for the gif idea too... Below are a few examples. First off, I didn't find the R6 unusable and clearly I got a lot of usable images from it. Just that in panning type situations, I often felt like I was trying to catch up to the running athlete. You can kind of see it in the two kick return runs, where the player is drifting off center towards side in the direction he's running before I can compensate. In the first example, you can see kind of a yo-yo effect as I catch up, move him back to center, then fall behind again. At the end he made a sudden move and I totally overshot. The rest of that sequence he ran more directly at me and there wasn't as much of a problem tracking him, so I didn't included it. The second example running left is kind of similar. He's starting to get away from me before I catch up. The QB scramble was more a situation of him running in my direction with less panning and it was easier to keep up in the viewfinder though he still drifts off center from time to time as I try to keep up. FWIW, another advantage of the extra pixels from the R5 would be that I could shoot such sequences horizontally instead, which allows more side to side leeway (and IMO looks more interesting when other players are in pursuit) but the client's preference is for tight verticals, if possible...

As I mentioned earlier, particularly with the kick return sequences, as I was shooting them, the view through the EVF feed appeared to be speeding up, making me feel like the runner was running faster and I was falling behind. It felt unnatural. Granted, in these situations, even with an optical viewfinder, my reflexes are always slightly behind the action but it just felt less natural with the R6's EVF.










Oct 04, 2022 at 01:07 PM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #13 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


I have no skin in this game however. I shot with an R for 2 years. If you want to feel like your'e falling behind try that body for burst sequences. 8 FPS if you are lucky. Closer to 5 in the real world. The R5 while not free it was much better and easier to work with.


Oct 04, 2022 at 03:09 PM
garyvot
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p.1 #14 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


rscheffler wrote:
As I mentioned earlier, particularly with the kick return sequences, as I was shooting them, the view through the EVF feed appeared to be speeding up, making me feel like the runner was running faster and I was falling behind. It felt unnatural. Granted, in these situations, even with an optical viewfinder, my reflexes are always slightly behind the action but it just felt less natural with the R6's EVF.


I think these GIFs are a cool way to show this.

I probably don't have to ask (so forgive me), but IS was off or you were using Mode 2 in these sequences?

It is certain that any EVF will introduce some non-zero lag vs. an optical viewfinder. A camera like the R3 or A1 will mitigate this, but perhaps what you are experiencing is "normal" for the R6? (I guess that's the question you are asking of the rest of us.)



Oct 04, 2022 at 04:25 PM
StevenSHH
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p.1 #15 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


If you are coming from 1DX II, R3 is the choice for ergonomic (grip and orientation and extra buttons), plus battery is LP-E19 - usable on 1DX II. Plus it's 24 MP, an improvement over 1DX II & III IMO.

There is no reason that 1DX II cannot be backup for now, unless 1DX III suddenly is having a fire sale at half off. Keeping that 1DX II means you can use native lens and upgrade lens line up gradually.



Oct 04, 2022 at 06:01 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #16 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


^ Yes, the R3 is the logical move from the 1DXII and I loved using it during the two weeks I had one from CPS. If I shot mostly sports/action for a living, it would without doubt be the next purchase. The complication is I do more than just sports and also want to buy some RF lenses sooner than later. I'm exploring R5 and R6 options to determine if I can live with the tradeoffs, in respect to sports work, but that might possibly benefit other things I photograph.

Sunday's outing with the R6 was generally positive. In fact, I'm not sure how much I want to keep using my 1DXII now.


rscheffler wrote:
As I mentioned earlier, particularly with the kick return sequences, as I was shooting them, the view through the EVF feed appeared to be speeding up, making me feel like the runner was running faster and I was falling behind. It felt unnatural. Granted, in these situations, even with an optical viewfinder, my reflexes are always slightly behind the action but it just felt less natural with the R6's EVF.

garyvot wrote:
I think these GIFs are a cool way to show this.

I probably don't have to ask (so forgive me), but IS was off or you were using Mode 2 in these sequences?

It is certain that any EVF will introduce some non-zero lag vs. an optical viewfinder. A camera like the R3 or A1 will mitigate this, but perhaps what you are experiencing is "normal" for the R6? (I guess that's the question you are asking of the rest of us.)


Thanks Gary. Yes, I turned off in-lens IS, which also turned off IBIS. What I'm trying to determine, without an R5 on-hand, is how close its EVF behavior is to the R6's. That said, I've secured a CPS R5 loaner for this weekend and will be able to determine for myself.

The R6 is what it is and I don't think there's any hidden setting, or something I overlooked, that will improve its EVF behavior. The R3 was definitely more OVF-like in this respect while photographing football. But I think it could still benefit from a higher fps refresh rate. At least at a night game I photographed, the R3's EVF refresh seemed slower than I expected. I'm not sure if this was actually the case, but when making sudden pans to acquire the target, it seemed less smooth than during the day. I'm pretty sure I had it set to the highest EVF refresh rate. In this respect, the R6 at the indoor Lions game didn't seem worse when just looking through it and panning around. It's once I started shooting that the accumulation of frame insertions (I assume) started to throw me off while trying to keep the subject centered. This didn't happen to nearly the same degree with the R3, where it felt pretty close to viewing through an OVF.



Oct 04, 2022 at 06:45 PM
jedibrain
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p.1 #17 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


I've shot thee R6 for over a year now, several sports games each weekend. Blows my previous 5d3, which at the time I thought was awesome, out of the water.

The EVF to me doesn't seem anymore laggy than the mirror blackout was with the DSLRs. Though i never shot a 1 series so maybe the speed made a difference there. Either way, what you saw is what you are going to get. With some practice/experience you'll improve your performance with it. Just keep your bursts short, or otherwise you'll come home from a game with 3000 image and LOTs of culling to do! Short bursts also give you the mental break to focus on reframing every second or two, if needed. But like I said your skill will improve as you get used to the EVF.

-Brian



Oct 05, 2022 at 12:26 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #18 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


Sorry, I shoot looonnngg bursts! The QB scramble above was 77 frames and wasn't even the full sequence! Client wants as much selection as possible of specific players, etc.

I noticed with the R3 that if I shot a short burst and let up to recompose or wait to see if the action improved, that there'd be a momentary glitch in the EVF. Kind of like it briefly froze while exiting image capture to return to its regular uninterrupted live feed. It annoyed me sometimes. To avoid it, I'd just keep shooting until I was pretty sure the play was over.

So far after three games with mirrorless cameras I'm averaging about 7500 frames per football game (and the last game I did that on two LP-E6N batteries with only 2 out of 3 bars performance, but were fully charged at the start). I can edit that in about 1-1.5 hours and usually end up with about 10% keepers (not because of missed focus or other technical faults). In this respect, a great thing about mirrorless is that frame to frame focus is so much more consistent (I can't overemphasize that), I don't really need to zoom in on each good image hoping it'll be sharp. If it looks sharp, it probably is. This saves time because I just tag good sequences and move on. Or if I need only the best image, I can quickly determine that from a given sequence. The problem is more data management and storage. I prefer to shoot raw, and with the R3 or R6, you can imagine that 7500 frames is in the 200GB range (if images are high ISO, then it's even more). With those cameras I shot regular Canon RAW and leave the selects alone. The outtakes go through Adobe DNG converter with lossy compression to squeeze them down. Low ISO day game files usually end up about 1/3 the regular raw file size. High ISO night games only about half.

I'll try the R5 this weekend and if I shoot the same amount, can imagine it will be easy to hit 500GB if in full size RAW.



Oct 05, 2022 at 02:38 PM
ramage
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p.1 #19 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


@rscheffler correct me if I am wrong but I think you have been using adapted EF glass for most of your testing correct?

I say this because while it is minor there is a difference in the overall performance when adapting vs native RF glass. It is really slight but by the looks of some of the action you are shooting that slight drop could be a factor.

The last lens I held out on was my very new EF 100-400 MKII. CPS Canada sent me the RF 100-500 and the EF 400mm 2.8 MKIII for a week. During that week my wife and I shot an airshow with the R5 and R6. I was using the EF 100-400 MKII and the EF 400mm MKIII on the R5 and my wife using the RF 100-500 on her R6. As expected the 400mm 2.8 was a joy to use but when I switched to the R6 for a little while I was able to detect better overall performance when using the new RF 100-500. Switching the RF 100-500 to the R5 was the same results, slightly better overall performance.

That was the final nail for my really new EF 100-400 and while I tried and failed to get approval for the RF 400 2.8 I was able to get a second RF 100-500.

I now have completed my transition from EF to RF and while I did take a bit of hit on some of my older EF lenes I was mostly able to cover 70% to 80% of the cost when going like for like EF to RF. Picking up slightly used on some of the glass was also helpful.

Just another data point to consider in case all the other data points you are looking at were not enough



Oct 05, 2022 at 02:41 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #20 · R6 vs. R5 vs. R6II EVF stutter/lag/blackout differences when following fast action


@ramage thanks for that perspective. You're right, I'm using adapted EF glass. Unfortunately there isn't an RF equivalent to the 200-400/4, which is my primary super-tele now. Maybe it's a good thing because I can imagine an RF version will be 50% more expensive. But I'm sure something similar to it will eventually arrive.

I should see about getting an RF super-tele loaner from CPS to compare against the 200-400 on an R5 or R6. And I was just there this morning... But the first thing I want to compare is the R5 against the R6 with the 200-400. Realistically, it will probably be some time before I replace the 200-400.



Oct 05, 2022 at 02:48 PM
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