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Archive 2022 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM

  
 
AmbientMike
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p.2 #1 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM


Jman13 wrote:
So I was curious about the Olympus, despite the fact that it was a more expensive lens at launch by a considerable margin, given inflation, and despite that it's a much easier lens to make at 21mm vs. 16mm....But what I found shows that it is highly likely that the Canon 16mm is a significantly better lens.

See this review, for instance:



The OM 21/3.5 has horrific corner sharpness on a modern full frame body, especially at distances where you'd be shooting a test chart like in this review, where even at f/8, the corners are effectively mush. The 16/2.8
...Show more

Leica lenses have corner smearing issues. Not sure why lenses often don't seem to perform on digital compared to film but, like I basically said above, if they'd used tech to make an older lens play better on digital might have been much better off. And I might be looking at going mirrorless now. $300 fairly light uwa's have been around for years.

I tried the video but 2 min in he is still talking about the 21mm vs 50mm fov. Having used these for years I am pretty sure I already knew that OM lenses can vary. I know some of the 21mm OM popular to adapt, probably later mc (rightly or wrongly ) and had a commensurate high price. So I didn't stick with the video long enough to see the version but I doubt they came to be high priced if they had bad corners. Mine isn't particularly good on digital, either (possibly in part due to a canoeing incident, another story I suppose)

I realize that it is probably harder to design and manufacture a 16mm. As I believe I mentioned in both previous posts, I don't really need 16mm. I had 17 Tokina AF ATX before the 21 OM, and really didn't notice the difference going to 21mm. The 17mm has poor extreme corners, Ken Rockwell has an excellent page on it, but I don't need the extreme corners. Probably need into the corner some, though. Landscape FL mostly. And 17 atx is a good lens. I had assumed that the less expensive mf version no good, but apparently some copies better than 17 Tamron, IIRC reading on here. Of course no one tested lenses on film to the same degree , or not many people did, it seemed, because you had to spend money on film vs zooming in during pp, and it's much more interesting to take photos. So I can't tell you how the 17 vs 21 compare really. Looked at your site some , so you are actually able to use the lens sans distortion correction at times?


Edited on Feb 22, 2022 at 01:44 PM · View previous versions



Feb 22, 2022 at 12:54 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #2 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM


Jesse Evans wrote:
Why is your assumption that the 11-24 suffers from a testing methodology problem? Why does the Sony 12-24 G fare so much better using the exact same testing methodology?

If anything, I would assume it could be a copy variation issue.


If you read the lensrentals review who tests at infinity; the 11-24 Canon does much better at edges, then what's shown relatively on OL. I am not familiar with the Sony but field curvature can make a lessor lens look better when focussed near in. But I don't know. That is the point. The OL is less reliable with UWA.



Edited on Feb 22, 2022 at 05:55 PM · View previous versions



Feb 22, 2022 at 01:11 PM
freedolin
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p.2 #3 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM


Scott Stoness wrote:
I am not familiar with the Sony but field curvature can make a lessor lens look better when focussed near in. But I don't know. That is the point. The OL is less reliable with UWA.


Well, I still disagree And our methodology completely eliminates field curvature. What you see in our MTF charts is the maximum resolution a lens achieves at that spot... in our camera based lab tests. Yes, lensrentals uses a completely different approach with an optical bench. Which, you could argue, doesn't tell you anything how a lens behaves on different cameras. The camera is always part of the equation... both in testing, as in the field.



Feb 22, 2022 at 01:37 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #4 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM


freedolin wrote:
Well, I still disagree And our methodology completely eliminates field curvature. What you see in our MTF charts is the maximum resolution a lens achieves at that spot... in our camera based lab tests. Yes, lensrentals uses a completely different approach with an optical bench. Which, you could argue, doesn't tell you anything how a lens behaves on different cameras. The camera is always part of the equation... both in testing, as in the field.


re eliminate field curvature -- perhaps I have it wrong. I will go read your testing FAQ. Do you focus on edges when edges when determining resolution on edges and centre when focussed on centre?

I agree that lens rentals is not necessarily better than your test. Yours would be better if you focus close in. There's might be better if you focus far out - which I generally do with UWA lens. Yours would be better if you used the actual body that you are doing the test with (or a similar one and there is no reason to think that R3, RP, R, R6 would not be similar, but they could be.




Feb 22, 2022 at 02:07 PM
freedolin
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p.2 #5 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM


Scott Stoness wrote:
re eliminate field curvature -- perhaps I have it wrong. I will go read your testing FAQ. Do you focus on edges when edges when determining resolution on edges and centre when focussed on centre?


Generally, yes, that's what we do. It's a bit more effort, though: we start slightly out of focus and then focus "through" the chart with tiny, manual focus steps. From the resulting batch of shots, we calculate the peak spot for the 4 measurement locations we us in the MTF charts independently. That way, field curvature is removed from the resolution numbers.

Scott Stoness wrote:
Yours would be better if you used the actual body that you are doing the test with (or a similar one and there is no reason to think that R3, RP, R, R6 would not be similar, but they could be.


Not sure I get your point.



Feb 22, 2022 at 02:30 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #6 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM


I mean by 2nd - it depends but most of us keep lens for many bodies or have several bodies, not just one. So testing on a body is not necessarily better.

freedolin wrote:
Generally, yes, that's what we do. It's a bit more effort, though: we start slightly out of focus and then focus "through" the chart with tiny, manual focus steps. From the resulting batch of shots, we calculate the peak spot for the 4 measurement locations we us in the MTF charts independently. That way, field curvature is removed from the resolution numbers.

Not sure I get your point.




Feb 22, 2022 at 06:00 PM
freedolin
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p.2 #7 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM


Scott Stoness wrote:
I mean by 2nd - it depends but most of us keep lens for many bodies or have several bodies, not just one. So testing on a body is not necessarily better.


Still not sure I get your point, but a few comments anyway: there is no real alternative to testing on a camera, at least not for us and likely many other review sites, too. Most of us do these reviews in their spare time with limited financial budgets. An optical bench is simply out of reach for most of us. In addition, as already mentioned: optical bench results give you an objective, neutral MTF-curve... that does not necessarily tell you how a lens behaves on a certain camera.

Of course we can also not provide the "full truth". Testing takes quite some time, testing on several bodies is simply not manageable time-wise. Having results for two different sensor resolutions in the RF reviews is already on the edge of what we can do, the situation is similar in the Nikon reviews, where I try to test as many lenses as possible on both FX and DX cameras.

I am not saying we have the best approach to testing. But we are consistent in our methodology... unless over the years parameters change or we come to the conclusion that we want to adjust things. This happens occasionally, yes. And I think it's a normal thing, given that we publish reviews for 17 or 18 years now (not exactly sure when the review section started on photozone).
But there is no "right" way or single best approach how to review a lens. We stick to what we have been doing, other sites prefer very different approaches.

Also, MTF lab tests aren't the only thing we do. Whenever we can, we do of course also actually use the lenses (obviously, how else could there be sample images). So, in the end, our reviews are the result of neutral lab tests following a given set of parameters that we set (and you might not agree to) plus experiences from actually using the lenses in the field.



Feb 23, 2022 at 02:46 AM
Toothwalker
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p.2 #8 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM


freedolin wrote:
Still not sure I get your point, but a few comments anyway: there is no real alternative to testing on a camera, at least not for us and likely many other review sites, too. Most of us do these reviews in their spare time with limited financial budgets. An optical bench is simply out of reach for most of us. In addition, as already mentioned: optical bench results give you an objective, neutral MTF-curve... that does not necessarily tell you how a lens behaves on a certain camera.

Of course we can also not provide the "full truth". Testing takes quite
...Show more

Being consistent in the methodology is important, and since the camera is part of the photograph equation there are certainly arguments in favor of measuring optical performance with test charts.

However, there are also some problems. Lens performance depends on i) the aperture; ii) the position in the field (center, border, etc); iii) the orientation of the detail (sagittal or tangential); iv) image magnification. All these aspects can be equally important for the MTF. For a zoom lens we could add v) focal length setting.

i) and ii) (and v) are taken care of in test chart MTF measurements, but usually we get to see a single MTF value with no mentioning of it being sagittal MTF, tangential MTF, or some kind of average. The biggest problem is the image magnification. I did not find the size of the test charts on opticallimits, but typically such charts yield a magnification between 0.036 and 0.024 on a full-frame sensor. For some lenses the measured MTF will be close to an infinity focus result, but for other ones it will be noticeably worse. This is treacherous terrain for landscape photographers.

Sometimes we also see that chromatic aberration increases with an increasing f-number. That is clearly a measurement error since it is physically impossible. The analysis software does not measure chromatic aberration, but apparent color fringing.



Feb 23, 2022 at 02:50 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #9 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM


freedolin wrote:
Allow me to comment, especially on our methodology

No, this is how all MTF tests are done, and there is simply no alternative to it. Interestingly, it's never an issue for lenses with good results, but always a reason to question our testing approach for lenses with fairly low resolution numbers.

Lenses have a flat image field (theoretically). So testing a flat target is the natural approach. For wide angle lenses, yes that brings up the issue that we're not testing at infinity (you can't, really), but if you happen to have a lens with a distance scale (the RF 16 doesn't
...Show more

Obviously I have some passion for this issue or I would not be fussing with it. I spend a lot of $ on lens and if it did not matter, I would just have a $300 lens. So I will say it again clearly:

The review referred to above is based on corrected, not uncorrected. Most of OL tests are done at uncorrected. This is noted in the review. I understand that the reason OL did this is that they view that most people will be using this lens corrected. This is a big deal. I will use the lens uncorrected (but cropped to near 16mm) for landscape whenever possible. And I will miss the high vignetting in corners by cropping.

1) the 16mm f2.8 is really a ~14mm lens with very high vignetting and very high barrel distortion
2) if you crop the raw manually proportional to original dimensions, you remove the vignetting down to a reasonable level (say 3.5%) which is normal for a UWA lens, you get a wider than 16mm lens with relatively higher barrel distortion. eg for example 15.5mm with 3.5% vignetting and 8% barrel distortion.[guessing]
3) Testing the lens in raw based on where you would crop it to in 2) , you would likely find the extremes significantly higher IQ than listed by OL. and quite acceptable. Albeit you are throwing away a small amount of your sensor resolution in cropping.
4) In addition, OL measures at close focus. I do not generally close focus. Its not clear whether closer to infinity focus will be much better or the same or worse, but comparing the lens rentals tests at infinity focus for 12-24 Canon vs the OL tests - the lens rentals shows much better. So I suspect that it will be considerably different.
5) generally all of the above is not a significant for longer mm testing.

I really appreciate OL efforts and consistency. They have a great site that I go to often.

But I note for anyone using OL for UWA, that you really need find a test on a tripod at near infinity centre and edge to find out whether the edges are acceptable for landscape. And perhaps compare it to a similar lens in the same manner.
suggest



The results shown by OL are right if you just leave the auto correct on - which I will do when shooting family shots where I don't much care about the edges anyway.



Feb 23, 2022 at 04:50 PM
Jesse Evans
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p.2 #10 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM


Scott Stoness wrote:
Obviously I have some passion for this issue or I would not be fussing with it. I spend a lot of $ on lens and if it did not matter, I would just have a $300 lens. So I will say it again clearly:

The review referred to above is based on corrected, not uncorrected. Most of OL tests are done at uncorrected. This is noted in the review. I understand that the reason OL did this is that they view that most people will be using this lens corrected. This is a big deal. I will use the lens
...Show more


You're talking about removing ~16.5% of the pixels from your image. I suspect you would not see a significantly different MTF. You'd have to control for comparing a 37MP image instead of a 45MP image, and then you would be left with a near fisheye result.

As for the "close focus" claim, I don't really think that they are using "close focus". The hyperfocal distance for a 16mm f/2.8 is 9.95, infinity is not much beyond that. They are testing much closer to infinity than they are to close focus.

Also, the Gordon Laing video seems to confirm the OL results, rather than refute them. The corners are very poor wide open. He doesn't test the edges (as opposed to corners).

At the end of the day, if the lens works for you, that's great.



Feb 23, 2022 at 05:28 PM
freedolin
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p.2 #11 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM


Toothwalker wrote:
i) and ii) (and v) are taken care of in test chart MTF measurements, but usually we get to see a single MTF value with no mentioning of it being sagittal MTF, tangential MTF, or some kind of average. The biggest problem is the image magnification. I did not find the size of the test charts on opticallimits, but typically such charts yield a magnification between 0.036 and 0.024 on a full-frame sensor.


MTF on OL is the average of sagittal and tangential MTF (or actually, the average of an almost horizontal and and almost vertical slanted edge).

The MTF chart size is roughly 120 x 80 cm.



Feb 24, 2022 at 06:52 AM
Jman13
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p.2 #12 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM


I took a shot with my 16mm of roughly an object that size, and focus distance is approximately 0.7m, so fairly close. Certainly not closer to infinity than not. With that said, I haven't noticed it being a huge difference in corrected images based on focus distance, as most of the resolution loss is due to the distortion correction, with some minor softening due to the optics.

However, there is a notable difference as to what converter is used, and therefore what lens profile is applied. The profile for Lightroom is not great...it overcorrects the image, such that there can be a bit of moustache at the extreme corner. Your distortion tests don't show this, so I'm not sure whether you are using the JPEG to measure corrected distortion or, or something like DPP.. I'm assuming your resolution tests are based on RAW files, so I'm curious what program you use for conversion.

In any case, there is a notable difference in apparent resolution when using Lightroom vs something like DxO Photolab, which does a much more complete correction. (in the crops below it looks angled still as if there is uncorrected barrel, but this is due to tilt of the camera.). While there is still the inevitable resolution loss due to stretching those corners so severely, I think it is much better handled in DxO, and while not 'good' is certainly more than usable for the vast majority of photographic situations.

100% crops of extreme upper right corner, LR conversion with distortion profile correction on left, DxO PhotoLab corrected imageon the right. Focus distance here is about 3-4m.

http://www.jordansteele.com/2022/lr_dxo_test.jpg

Interestingly enough, both Lightroom and (especially) DxO have SIGNIFICANTLY wider fields of view than what Canon expects you to use for this lens. The DPP / JPEG output, which is at a 16mm FOV, is significantly cropped in from what the corrected image on LR is, and even moreso on DxO, which actually provides a corrected near 16:10 output, giving you cropping ability on the long end beyond the traditional 3:2 frame. Here is the same file as above with the DPP profile from Canon, and then the DxO converted profile cropped to the same FOV (this results in a 7482 pixel wide image, or 37MP image, which is still notably sharper than the DPP corrected output. At this crop, the corners actually look pretty good, though you lose ultimate resolution.

http://www.jordansteele.com/2022/dpp_dxo_test.jpg

If you want to see just how much wider a DxO corrected image is vs. what Canon considers the final output, see below.
http://www.jordansteele.com/2022/dxo_dpp_size.jpg

Uncorrected, the image is 13.5-14mm in width. The DxO correction gives an image horizontally at about that same 14mm width (it's very slightly wider than my Samyang 14mm f/2.8, which is a bit wider than my Sigma 14-24mm itself). If you crop to 3:2 on that image, and assuming the Samyang 14mm is exactly 14mm, the 16mm corrected with DxO yields an image with a focal length of 14.95mm. However, based on comparisons with other 14mm lenses, it is likely the Samyang 14mm is actually closer to 13.5mm, which would make the DxO corrected 16mm lens final output the same FOV as 14.4mm. In any case, it's a wider lens than Canon marks.

Looking at a landscape shot with the wider FOV of LR and DxO, you can see the resolution difference between the two a little more clearly in the corner. Cropped to the DPP output, you'd still see even better corner resolution due to cropping out the worst parts of the image.

Full shot:
http://www.jordansteele.com/2022/cedar_16.jpg

100% crops of the lower left corner, LR and DxO (respectively):
http://www.jordansteele.com/2022/lr_dxo_test2.jpg

Of course this shot doesn't really need distortion correction, and you can see if you turn it off, the corners become quite decent:
http://www.jordansteele.com/2022/lr_dxo_uncorrected.jpg

In any case, I'm quite pleased with the lens overall, as the poor resolution corrected is only really in the extreme corner, and even then it's OK for most situations. It's pretty good across most of the frame, and has excellent color and contrast. For the price and size, I think it's a winner.



Feb 24, 2022 at 08:01 AM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #13 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM


Jesse Evans wrote:
You're talking about removing ~16.5% of the pixels from your image. I suspect you would not see a significantly different MTF. You'd have to control for comparing a 37MP image instead of a 45MP image, and then you would be left with a near fisheye result.

As for the "close focus" claim, I don't really think that they are using "close focus". The hyperfocal distance for a 16mm f/2.8 is 9.95, infinity is not much beyond that. They are testing much closer to infinity than they are to close focus.

Also, the Gordon Laing video seems to confirm the OL results,
...Show more

I think if you combine the OL and Gordan Laing video and the digitalpicture you would observe:

1) GL: at f8 (near infinity focus) , the 16/2.8 corrected is close to the 14-35f4 at edges
2) GL at f8, (near infinity focus) the 16/2.8 corrected is less than 15-35 f2.8 at edges but comparable [thats pretty good]
3) OL: at f8, (close focussed) the centre is 4700 and the extreme is 2700
4) OL: at corrected, (close focussed) with vignette correction off (cropped to 16mm to remove extraneous stuff) the vignetting is 3.5% [2% at f8]
5) Thedigitalpicture 16/2.8 vs 15-35f4 shows 15-34 [both corrected?] being marginally better at f8 on edges, but this is close focussed to get it in the chart. But 16/2.8 is very acceptable. https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=1573&Camera=1508&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=4&LensComp=1569&CameraComp=1508&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=3
6) GL: barrel distortion is ~10%

2) 1) is not consistent with 3) - OL edges at 2700 [either infinity focus improves it or beyond 2700 is not bad]
4) 3.5%vignetting at wide open [with dark edges cropped off to 16mm] is not unreasonable for an uwa lens for landscape
6) 10% is pretty distorted but okay for landscape unless you are shooting where there are not many trees/features (ocean, lake, Death Valley)
5) suggests that the 16/2.8 with autocorrection turned off and manually cropped, focussed at infinity, is likely very good. And GL suggests that even with autocorrection, focussed at near infinity, its pretty good - comparable to 15-35f4. With people corrected at f2.8 I suspect that no one would notice either because of bokeh and the attention on the people.

So for $300, its a winner. And even ignoring the price given its weight/sizeand corner performance uncorrected for landscape it quite good. And for hiking at crop mode (19mpx and 24mm on R5) its a great action capture lens (small, light, good resolution).

I will still rather use laowa 15 shift or TS17 shift if I was not hiking far, but for travel or backpacking with 50lbs, this lens plus 24-105 f4-7.1 [and sometimes 100-400 RF] is an excellent kit.

Edited on Feb 25, 2022 at 11:33 AM · View previous versions



Feb 25, 2022 at 10:05 AM
Jman13
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p.2 #14 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM


Having shot and reviewed both, I don't think the 16mm is as good as the 14-35mm even at infinity and f/8. Both have some distortion stretching issues at the edge, but the 16's are more prominent.

I will say that the 16mm is better overall than the wide end of the old 17-40/4L, and that lens was beloved for many years.



Feb 25, 2022 at 10:45 AM
Jesse Evans
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p.2 #15 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM




Scott Stoness wrote:
I think if you combine the OL and Gordan Laing video and the digitalpicture you would observe:

1) GL: at f8 (near infinity focus) , the 16/2.8 corrected is close to the 14-35f4 at edges
2) GL at f8, (near infinity focus) the 16/2.8 corrected is less than 15-35 f2.8 at edges but comparable [thats pretty good]
3) OL: at f8, (close focussed) the centre is 4700 and the extreme is 2700
4) OL: at corrected, (close focussed) with vignette correction off (cropped to 16mm to remove extraneous stuff) the vignetting is 3.5% [2% at f8]
5) Thedigitalpicture 16/2.8 vs 15-35f4 shows 15-34
...Show more

I think you’re underestimating how much small differences in image quality in the final product make up larger differences in MTF.

“2700” is not contradictory to GLs observations that it is “slightly worse” than the 15-35, and indeed, it is a “fair” ranking on Optical Limits and an “excellent” ranking across the broader image center.



Feb 25, 2022 at 11:40 AM
AmbientMike
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p.2 #16 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM




freedolin wrote:
MTF on OL is the average of sagittal and tangential MTF (or actually, the average of an almost horizontal and and almost vertical slanted edge).

The MTF chart size is roughly 120 x 80 cm.


I am curious about the vignetting on 16mm if used at 16mm. It looked vastly improved, if you corrected for distortion, which I assume leaves you wider than 16mm?



Feb 25, 2022 at 12:54 PM
AmbientMike
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p.2 #17 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM


I believe that the old USAF chart about 1:50 magnification. Probably not a bad compromise for regular photography but still potentially pretty close on a 16mm/uwa. So personally I don't see up close on an uwa as being a poor test.




Feb 25, 2022 at 01:02 PM
tkbslc
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p.2 #18 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM


Lightroom sure has been disappointing for lens profiles lately. I thought all that subscription money was supposed to fund things like that. Looks like you better stick with JPEG, DPP or DxO with this lens.






Feb 25, 2022 at 01:05 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.2 #19 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM


DXOMark has reviewed 16/2.8 https://www.dxomark.com/canon-rf-16mm-f2-8-stm-lens-review/

uncorrected it has similar sharpness and transmission to the larger and pricier Zeiss Distagon T* 15mm F2.8, while being much smaller and lighter.

has exceptionally high levels of barrel distortion, measured at -4.7%

uncorrected vignetting wide open at F2.8 in the extreme corners is measured at -3.8 EV.

This suggests that if you are like me, using the 16/2.8 most uncorrected for landscape, the edges are not that bad. And the lens is pretty good wide open.



Feb 27, 2022 at 08:20 PM
stanj
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p.2 #20 · Optical Limits reviewed Canon RF 16mm f/2.8 STM


tkbslc wrote:
Lightroom sure has been disappointing for lens profiles lately. I thought all that subscription money was supposed to fund things like that. Looks like you better stick with JPEG, DPP or DxO with this lens.


Lately? LR profiles have always been pretty terrible, it's just that the lenses released more recently rely more heavily on software correction, and when it's done poorly, it really shows. DxO always worked great on lenses - if you can find the profile, of course, and unlike with Adobe profiles, you can't make your own.



Feb 27, 2022 at 11:49 PM
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