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Leica M11

  
 
highdesertmesa
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p.32 #1 · Leica M11


Charging the battery on the M11 replacement that arrived today – black since that was the first unit the dealer had arrive while my silver one was still in transit back to them. I haven't powered it up, but mounting a lens and testing the rangefinder patch, it seems to be perfect – patch is bright and contrasty and vertical alignment is flawless. Fingers crossed for the rest of it.

As for black versus silver, I'm surprised at how much I like the new black paint. It's like the green paint on the M10 Reporter instead of the green paint on the Q2 Reporter. The M versions seem to get a finer spray application which is more even and refined. I'm a little freaked out because I may like it as much or more than black chrome (horrors! ). The weight reduction – it does not feel cheaper and hollow like the Q cameras do. I think it actually feels like the weight an M camera should have been all along.



Apr 28, 2022 at 08:09 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.32 #2 · Leica M11


highdesertmesa wrote:
Charging the battery on the M11 replacement that arrived today – black since that was the first unit the dealer had arrive while my silver one was still in transit back to them. I haven't powered it up, but mounting a lens and testing the rangefinder patch, it seems to be perfect – patch is bright and contrasty and vertical alignment is flawless. Fingers crossed for the rest of it.

As for black versus silver, I'm surprised at how much I like the new black paint. It's like the green paint on the M10 Reporter instead of the green paint on the
...Show more

Please let us know your first impressions.



Apr 29, 2022 at 02:33 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.32 #3 · Leica M11


Fred Miranda wrote:
Please let us know your first impressions.


I haven't shot much with it yet – just a few snaps with the 28 Lux and CV 75 1.5 (and previously with the CV 50 APO). I know from reading Reid Reviews pay site that certain lenses can perform differently on M10-R versus the M11 with seemingly no rhyme or reason – some are better in the corners on the M11, some are worse, etc. So far I think the 28 Lux, CV 50 APO, and CV 75 1.5 perform as well as they do on the M10-R.

The 28 Lux seems to be a little less harsh somehow, but I need more time to be sure.

CV 75 is sharper wide open on my M11, but for now I'm going to attribute this to to copy variation since I have a different copy of the lens now.

The black finish is great. The camera just stays in my hand where I have it. It's like holding the stem of a sunflower

After using the GFX 100S, I love having manual dials and controls again for all three Tv/Av/ISO + Exp Comp.

Rear screen is freakin' amazing – resolution/brightness is outstanding. Having the Quick Menu like on the SL2/SL2-S/Q2 is really great to have on the M. Now they just need to let us customize it.

Highlight-weighted metering that was just added in a firmware update is broken, but Leica is aware and working on a fix. This will be great to have just like on the SL2/SL2-S.

I think it's strange the default live view mode isn't set to permanent exposure preview but is instead tied to shutter button press. I guess I must have changed that immediately on my M10 variants as well.

Now that we have an electronic shutter, Leica needs to add a new electronic rectangle to the rangefinder window that can be set to flash when you take a shot.

Battery life is insane. This may be the best battery versus consumption in a digital camera I've ever owned.

Image quality is top-tier. I think of it as a miniature GFX 100/100S in full frame crop mode with the benefit of getting to use ISO 64. With either Leica or CV 35/50 APO lenses, it's just as good IQ-wise. I think the GFX 100/100S may have a very slight advantage in noise handling at the pixel level, but it's pretty close.

The M11 addresses all my major nitpicks with the M10-R and introduces no downsides.

This makes me very excited to see what the M11 Monochrome images will be like.



Apr 29, 2022 at 04:41 PM
zhangyue
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p.32 #4 · Leica M11


Agree. This is the best M camera I ever used. Might be my favorite FF camera of all time.

Well, minus all kinds of bugs and glitches in field.
highdesertmesa wrote:
I haven't shot much with it yet – just a few snaps with the 28 Lux and CV 75 1.5 (and previously with the CV 50 APO). I know from reading Reid Reviews pay site that certain lenses can perform differently on M10-R versus the M11 with seemingly no rhyme or reason – some are better in the corners on the M11, some are worse, etc. So far I think the 28 Lux, CV 50 APO, and CV 75 1.5 perform as well as they do on the M10-R.

The 28 Lux seems to be a little less harsh somehow, but I
...Show more



Apr 29, 2022 at 07:00 PM
hmzimelka
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p.32 #5 · Leica M11


Compared to the M10M I had, the M11 feels somewhat more refined in every aspect except its firmware, which as you know is still rough around the edges.

The battery is indeed amazing, but my use case I only get about 700 shots over a span of 7-10 days with little to no live view shooting. Which is good enough. I do need to review my images a lot, because the light metering, in my opinion, is unreliable, so I need to check almost every image whether it got it right or borked it up...

One thing I did notice is that when exposure metering is set to permanent in LV mode, then the instance for Rangefinder metering to be incorrect compared to LV metering is much much higher.

If I were you, I would leave the exposure preview to Half Button Depress, or confirm if your camera has an exposure discrepancy between LV and Rangefinder focusing. In my case, the differences are quite high in Rangefinder mode overexposing at times over 1EV brighter than in LV mode with Multi-Segment metering.

I've changed my camera back to exposure preview on shutter depress and its made it a lot better. Now differences between shooting modes are usually only 1/3 EV if anything.

Highlight metering, ist sehr kaput!


I'm a long time Nikon shooter, and I have to say that while the 60MP sensor in the M11 is very nice with exception of this ridiculous bifurcation issue which still exists , I somehow still prefer the files off my D850. The seem a little more robust. I honestly don't think the M11 has a Sony Sensor.

Maybe its my years of experience with the D800, D810 and D850 files compared to my relatively new experience with Leica... not sure. I just find the Leica M11 default profile to be a bit crude and oversaturated. Looking at the M11 profile with dcpTool it seems rather simplistic, which probably explains why I have issues with it in more complex colour scenarios like sunsets, where clipping and colour transitions in the red and oranges can be less than desired. Hopefully Leica can work on this more over time. It behaves very much like a simple profile from a 24CC chart and X-Rite's or Adobe's DNG profiling software. Those profiles are also fairly useless since 24 colour patches are just too few for a solid profile.

I'm happier with Adobe's more conservative Standard Profile which has a long list of colour matrixes and tone curve adjustments.

I've also needed to, more often than not, take with a grey card for setting the cameras WB. I find the Auto WB to be a bit all over the place, and to be a little too magenta biased for my preference.

Happy shooting!





Apr 29, 2022 at 11:49 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.32 #6 · Leica M11


hmzimelka wrote:
Compared to the M10M I had, the M11 feels somewhat more refined in every aspect except its firmware, which as you know is still rough around the edges.

The battery is indeed amazing, but my use case I only get about 700 shots over a span of 7-10 days with little to no live view shooting. Which is good enough. I do need to review my images a lot, because the light metering, in my opinion, is unreliable, so I need to check almost every image whether it got it right or borked it up...

One thing I did notice is
...Show more

Cool shot and the kind of thing that 60mp looks really good with at high magnification. It's easy to get lost looking at detailed images on screen with the M11 much like with the GFX 100 cameras. Nikon's customizations to Sony's sensors are really good. 45mp on the D850 is a pretty nice sweet spot with regard to resolution and RAW pliability in post. I loved the output from my old Nikon Df with Zeiss ZF glass. Except for the lower resolution (in today's terms), that sensor's output is still a mental benchmark for me.

I didn't notice much difference in rangefinder mode exposure accuracy when changing the permanent versus shutter-press exposure preview. I'm pretty sure Leica knows that metering in general on the M11 needs to be refined across multiple situations for consistency and accuracy. I think it was the addition of highlight-weighted metering mode that just ripped off that scab and is forcing them to fix it all top-to-bottom. If they only fix highlight-weighted and not the rest, I'll be bummed.

I'm using C1, and the M11 profile seems pretty good. I think C1 needs to improve the default setting for the M11 noise handling just ever so slightly. Their default noise setting for the GFX 100S is much better when comparing both at the pixel level. It could just be a difference in the sensor customizations for each manufacturer, though.

Magenta bias is something I'm used to from the original GFX 50S/50R. That was waaaay more magenta-biased than the M11, almost to the point of looking like it was added in post via split toning. But once you see too much magenta, you can't unsee it – so when it does happen on the M11, I do notice it. Sometimes I just set my cameras to Daylight WB and forget about it.

I know some Leica shooters might think it trite and/or unnecessary, but I wish Leica would partner with the current owner of Kodak's intellectual property to provide several in-camera JPEG Kodak film simulations, similar to how Fujifilm draws from their own film stock past/present. I don't care as much about using the simulations in camera, but I loved getting to use Fujifilm's in C1 on RAW files as a starting point for edits sometimes. I need to try the Mastin Lab's presets I have on the M11 to see how they work – really like their Ektar sim.




Apr 30, 2022 at 12:02 PM
pmeheut
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p.32 #7 · Leica M11


highdesertmesa wrote:
I'm using C1, and the M11 profile seems pretty good.

I'm not crazy about it. Blue skies are better out of my Olympus u43 in C1.
I also would like something minor but important to me in C1: support of the crop factor in the dng files.


But it seems this is a very good sensor indeed:
https://leicarumors.com/2022/04/29/leica-m11-tested-at-dxomark-solid-100-points-one-of-the-top-5-sensors-currently-on-the-market.aspx/




Apr 30, 2022 at 02:05 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.32 #8 · Leica M11


pmeheut wrote:
I'm not crazy about it. Blue skies are better out of my Olympus u43 in C1.
I also would like something minor but important to me in C1: support of the crop factor in the dng files.

But it seems this is a very good sensor indeed:
https://leicarumors.com/2022/04/29/leica-m11-tested-at-dxomark-solid-100-points-one-of-the-top-5-sensors-currently-on-the-market.aspx/



That might just be how the M11 sensor records a given scene. Are the blues any better from the M11 in Lightroom?

The M11 is very accurate about recording sky colors, as was my GFX 100S that shares the same base sensor. If you're used to more cartoonish colors such as those delivered by Canon and others, then you may have to boost specific colors using the sliders in the Color Editor panel in C1.



Apr 30, 2022 at 04:36 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.32 #9 · Leica M11


Took a few minutes with the M11 metering today to test in in high-contrast light. I'm keeping my M11 in center-weighted until the next firmware update. I'm very happy with the results from that metering mode.

Center-weighted
– Consistent and Accurate
– Not overly sensitive to small changes in camera position
– Exposure does not change with LV on versus LV off

Multifield
– Inconsistent and subject to over or under-exposure
– Overly sensitive to small changes in camera position
– Exposure does not change with LV on versus LV off

Highlight-weighted
– Identical to Multifield except exposure is ~1/2 stop brighter with LV on versus LV off



Apr 30, 2022 at 08:29 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.32 #10 · Leica M11


Noticed something disconcerting that I had also noticed on my previous M11 but thought it was a fluke. I can flick the battery release in such a way that it completely launches out of the camera instead of catching like it's supposed to. DO NOT trust the battery release to hold the battery or always release the battery with the bottom of the camera facing upward.


Apr 30, 2022 at 08:37 PM
 


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lifeandmylens
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p.32 #11 · Leica M11


highdesertmesa wrote:
Noticed something disconcerting that I had also noticed on my previous M11 but thought it was a fluke. I can flick the battery release in such a way that it completely launches out of the camera instead of catching like it's supposed to. DO NOT trust the battery release to hold the battery or always release the battery with the bottom of the camera facing upward.


I've noticed the same. If you're touching the battery in any way when ejecting it, it'll drop out. I usually turn the camera sideways and do it.



May 01, 2022 at 02:38 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.32 #12 · Leica M11


lifeandmylens wrote:
I've noticed the same. If you're touching the battery in any way when ejecting it, it'll drop out. I usually turn the camera sideways and do it.


It seems more likely to drop out if I flick the release with more speed and force using the outer edge of the lever – it will defeat the catch about one out of every five attempts. Of course I will try not to do that, but I actually first noticed the problem without trying to – the battery simply flew out into my hand (thankfully).

I did try this on the Q2, and I can only defeat the battery catch if I am ejecting it upward. With the bottom of the camera downward, the catch always catches it. I think there is an important physical difference in the design of the battery catch between the M11 and Q2, either on the battery or camera side that needs to be addressed. I will probably email Leica about it and see what they say.



May 01, 2022 at 03:07 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.32 #13 · Leica M11


This has been done before by others and more thoroughly, but I wanted to see how the 60/36/18 resolution DNG files compared for how I work with my images.

M11 -|- CV 50 APO -|- Manual mode set to ISO 64, f/5.6, and 1/250/sec -|- infinity focus -|- crops are from the bottom third of a horizontal image

Lightroom M11 profile, identical adjustments to all three for exposure and sharpness. Sharpness set to what looked good to me at 100%, which was 114 (40 is default), radius set to 0.8 (1.0 is default). The default sharpening on the M11 in LR is very conservative. Files exported to PSD 16-bit and the two smaller files given just a squeak more sharpening via Camera Raw filter.

Why would I add a bit of sharpening to the 36/18 files? Because when reducing the 60mp files Photoshop to smaller sizes, I used Bicubic Sharper mode (as likely do other testers since it's the default for reduction), which in effect sharpens for detail during reduction. Reducing the 60mp files with straight Bicubic (so as to preserve gentle gradients) might be more fair to the binned files and produce a less sharp reduction, but I didn't test that.

Conclusions:

If pre-sharpened and sharpened slightly after export, the 36mp and 18mp binned DNGs are nearly identical to the reduced 60mp DNG when viewed at 100%. At 300% magnification, the 60mp files appear to resolve slightly more detail and show slightly less noise. There seem to be no IQ benefits to binning, only space savings as other testers have shown. However, there is also very little penalty for binning if the files are thoughtfully edited in post. I hope that Leica further refines the binned DNGs in a firmware update to deliver a benefit other than space savings.






100% –> 60 / 36 / 18







100% –> left: 60 reduced to 36 / right: 36 native (binned)







300% –> left: 60 reduced to 36 / right: 36 native (binned)




May 04, 2022 at 09:36 PM
Silken
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p.32 #14 · Leica M11


I’m disappointed but perversely relieved to hear that I’m not the only one having problems with Leica’s “quality” control and “service.” My first M11 had the rangefinder way off at medium to long distances. Three months later, the exchange is oh so close. Close enough that I am getting sharp images with my 18, 35/1.4, and 50/2, but back focused with my 90/2. I so desperately want a good platform to take advantage of these lenses. Argh. Do I keep it and just try to be happy, and hope that sending it for service for six bloody months (“4-6 weeks” HAHA!) at some point in the next year will rectify the problem? Or should I just send this overpriced junk back before I’m tempted to throw it at the wall? Never should have sold my M.


May 11, 2022 at 11:11 PM
hmzimelka
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p.32 #15 · Leica M11


I can relate to the frustration. Before you send the camera back for repair, exchange or refund.... Try see if the camera or the 90mm lens is the one that is out of spec. Is there a way for you to use the 90mm on another M11 or M10-R just to try rule out either the lens or the camera as being the issue. This is of course only if the 50 and 35/1.4 are not showing a slight back focus at widest apertures. Keep focus shift in mind.

The focus adjustment for the camera is trivially easy to do with a 2mm Allen. It takes a little patience and a very very small adjustment but its easy to do, and confidence to adjust your own camera will come over time. I wouldn't send the camera for service with Leica as it may come back the same, worse, or perfect. But, like you mentioned, it will takes ages. So hardly worth the risk.

Other users here will likely suggest a third party specialist that can do this RF focus adjustment for you, with a turn around time that is likely much shorter. But I would rule out the 90mm first.

I've tried three M11's to date, and all were spot on with focusing. Its the first M camera I've tried that didn't have focusing issues. The three M Monochrom cameras I tried (in 2014) were a joke when it came to focus and vertical rangefinder alignment. My M10M was also not accurate with a back-focus, but this minor adjustment I did myself and it only took a couple minutes.



May 12, 2022 at 12:11 AM
highdesertmesa
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p.32 #16 · Leica M11


Shot the same scene with the M11 (CV 50 APO) and SL2-S (CV 75.1.5). M11 file is cropped in and over to the right side of the frame.

In C1, I find the SL2-S files much easier to work with with regard to color. I felt like the M11 file was fighting me somewhat to get matching colors to the SL2-S. IMO, the M11 profile in C1 needs refinement as the M11 files are easier to work with in Lightroom.

M11
Profile = ProStandard
Curve = Auto
WB: K= 5646 / T= -7.3
Saturation = 11
Clarity = 16

SL2-S
Profile = ProStandard
Curve = Auto
WB: K= 5939 / T= -6.5
Saturation = 24
Clarity = 0

All other adjustments were the same.






M11 -|- CV 50 APO







SL2-S -|- CV 75 1.5




May 13, 2022 at 06:39 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.32 #17 · Leica M11


Silken wrote:
I’m disappointed but perversely relieved to hear that I’m not the only one having problems with Leica’s “quality” control and “service.” My first M11 had the rangefinder way off at medium to long distances. Three months later, the exchange is oh so close. Close enough that I am getting sharp images with my 18, 35/1.4, and 50/2, but back focused with my 90/2. I so desperately want a good platform to take advantage of these lenses. Argh. Do I keep it and just try to be happy, and hope that sending it for service for six bloody months (“4-6 weeks”
...Show more

Sounds like the 90 is off if all the others are right.



May 13, 2022 at 06:59 PM
JPlomley
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p.32 #18 · Leica M11


hmzimelka wrote:
The sad part about it is the cameras we would reject due to the problem being very evident, will be claimed as "in-spec" by Leica. I had such a troublesome interaction with Leica over my Monochrom issue that I have lost a lot of respect and admiration for the brand.

I hope you don't find anything with your M10-R. I would recommend most people do not go looking for it.


I've seen the issue on my M10M and SL2; much much worse on the M10M. Leica's feedback was it was a characteristic of the sensor. WTF!



May 13, 2022 at 07:56 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.32 #19 · Leica M11


JPlomley wrote:
I've seen the issue on my M10M and SL2; much much worse on the M10M. Leica's feedback was it was a characteristic of the sensor. WTF!


That's nuts. It's not a characteristic if at least half the M10Ms do not have the issue. I had one that did and returned it for one that didn't.



May 13, 2022 at 10:04 PM
pmeheut
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p.32 #20 · Leica M11


airfrogusmc wrote:
Sounds like the 90 is off if all the others are right.


Yes. It makes no sense sending the body alone if one is not sure that the lenses are perfectly calibrated.
And as said above, it takes a few minutes to fix the horizontal alignment of the rangefinder. This is easy and more than useful. I see no point in waiting weeks for this.

The M is a precision instrument and one needs to learn how to master it before calling it "overpriced junk".




May 13, 2022 at 11:00 PM
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