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Leica M11

  
 
Steve Spencer
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p.18 #1 · Leica M11


airfrogusmc wrote:
I think they have done a good job in the past of keeping the M what it should be. If they try and be like everything else then the ywill no longer be different and loose that advantage and loose me and all of those like me. And their sales have been strong when others maybe not so much. In my opinion they need to remain an alternative to everything else out there. Again if Leica wants to go down that path of a one size fits all camera then make another model but if they are smart which they
...Show more

I don't think a Leica M will ever be a one size fits all camera. I want to see Leica M cameras keep the true rangefinder, perhaps almost as much as you do, but I think Leica can add excellent shooting from a tripod to handheld use with the rangefinder without compromising the camera in any way. This opens up the use of the the camera to a few other genres like landscapes and architecture without in my view compromising the typical use of a rangefinder camera in any way. I don't want them to compromise handheld use of the rangefinder at all, but if they can add extra functionality from a tripod without any handheld rangefinder use compromises then I think that is a good thing.



Jan 21, 2022 at 02:18 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.18 #2 · Leica M11


Steve Spencer wrote:
There are certainly a lot of approaches and a lot depends on your preferences. Personally, I have decided to go with my Leica M for landscapes. I seriously considered going with Fuji MF as I have a Fuji GFX camera with the 44 X 33 sensor that delivers outstanding results for landscapes. The issue for me, however, is that I don't shoot landscapes that much and when I do at least 80% of the time it is when I am traveling. That pulls for a smaller system and it is easy to modify my current set of Leica M
...Show more

You mentioned great landscape lenses for the M body:
CV 15/4.5 III, 21 SEM, 28/2 II Ultron, 50/2 APO-Lanthar and 85/4 ZM. What a small and high IQ set. I have them all except for the ZM. I use the bigger 90/2 AA instead which I consider one of the best 85/90mm lenses out there. At f/4 and smaller it challenges even the mighty SL 90/2 APO. I have tested them side by side.



Jan 21, 2022 at 02:23 PM
zhangyue
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p.18 #3 · Leica M11


serhan_ wrote:
From PhotonsToPhotos:
Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) of M11 compared to Leica M10


It is such an ironic Leica M become the pinnacle of FF sensor.



Jan 21, 2022 at 02:25 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.18 #4 · Leica M11


I can and have in the film days shot street with a 500 C/M but I don't see that as the best tool for that. I think there are far better options for shooting landscape than an M. Sure you can do it but in my opinion I think a rangefinder is best suited for fast moving street and candid work. I think to many are trying to make Leica M a one size fits all system.


Jan 21, 2022 at 02:25 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.18 #5 · Leica M11


Yeah its king today but like in these kind of MP wars in a week or two it will be old news. there wil always be something with more______ or so called better________. The gadget go round is designed to have one keep opening their wallet. A great quote that I have posted many times before but so right on the money, even today by Weston.

"The fact is that relatively few photographers ever master their medium. Instead they allow the medium to master them and go on an endless squirrel cage chase from new lens to new paper to new developer to new gadget, never staying with one piece of equipment long enough to learn its full capacities, becoming lost in a maze of technical information that is of little or no use since they don't know what to do with it."
Edward Weston

At what point does one get off the gadget go round?

"The camera doesn't make a bit of difference. All of them can record what you are seeing. But, you have to SEE."
Ernst Haas



Jan 21, 2022 at 02:33 PM
Desmolicious
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p.18 #6 · Leica M11


airfrogusmc wrote

Why would anyone pay 9K for a fuji that already exists. I have bought Leica M (first M Mono, M262, M-E which I have sold and now I own 2 M10s and an M 10 mono partially because they weren't fuji or sony. Because they function nothing like them. They fit the way I see and work It is nice to have a real choice other than the one size fits all world already out there. M is a real choice. Leica M trying to be those cameras would loose me and many like me as customers. Again if Leica
...Show more

But it wouldn't be anything like the Fuji because the Fuji does not have an optical RF, just an OVF. And the Fuji has AF.

A Leica M with a hybrid optical RF/EVF would still be completely unique and true to the M idea. All it would be doing is replacing the kludgy add on EVF that ruins the balance and lines and size of the camera, with one that is built in.
Unless someone else decides to build a FF digicam with an optical RF, there will be nothing like this Leica.



Jan 21, 2022 at 02:34 PM
leolab
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p.18 #7 · Leica M11


I guess it depends on what truly defines the Leica M experience for folks...for me its the true Full-Frame RF experience and excellent compatibility with the M-lens system...I don't see why adding an XPro EVF overlay option onto the RF window that can display additional info is at odds with that, and can also double as pure EVF in lieu of the big Visoflex add-on...those who don't want to use the EVF don't have to, those who do occasionally use the EVF (which I do to frame UWA lenses) can do so without the bulbous add-on Visoflex. in my mind this is not Fuji-fying the Leica M, since the Fuji does not even have an RF.


Jan 21, 2022 at 02:40 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.18 #8 · Leica M11


Ok Huss good point and fair point but put it on a different body.

Edited on Jan 21, 2022 at 03:08 PM · View previous versions



Jan 21, 2022 at 02:43 PM
wolfloid
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p.18 #9 · Leica M11


Why would anyone pay 9K for a fuji that already exists.

What? Why would you think adding an integrated evf into the same form and function of, say, an M10, would make it anything like a Fuji, or indeed that it already exists in the Fuji? It would still be an M10. If you didn’t press the switch to engage the evf, you need not even know that it is there. Why is there a problem with that?

In addition, why would you think adding a clunky external viewfinder - which does destroy the svelte form, is a better idea? Something that costs extra and can be lost, in addition to the general inconvenience.



Jan 21, 2022 at 02:58 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.18 #10 · Leica M11


My opinion if one wants EVF there are a lot of cameras already out there with it. Right? Lotsa places to move around to. Lets see. A true digital rangefinder only. Looks like there is only one. And if it wasn't a good idea why do they sell? To me a perfect digital M would be a film M body with a sensor like the M 10 M sensor in low light. Advance lever for cocking the shutter and the only think a battery would be needed for is to power the sensor. They could even leave off a meter. I have plenty of those. Like I said before that will never happen but thats a perfect digital M in my opinion. Don't need anything else.


Jan 21, 2022 at 03:04 PM
 


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airfrogusmc
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p.18 #11 · Leica M11


wolfloid wrote:
What? Why would you think adding an integrated evf into the same form and function of, say, an M10, would make it anything like a Fuji, or indeed that it already exists in the Fuji? It would still be an M10. If you didn’t press the switch to engage the evf, you need not even know that it is there. Why is there a problem with that?

In addition, why would you think adding a clunky external viewfinder - which does destroy the svelte form, is a better idea? Something that costs extra and can be lost, in addition to the
...Show more

I wouldn't add a clunky EVF. If I wanted that I wouldn't be shooting with a Leica M. If I wanted to see through the lens every other digital camera out there does that.



Jan 21, 2022 at 03:10 PM
wolfloid
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p.18 #12 · Leica M11


Well, my suggestion (I don’t really know how possible it is), would not make the camera ergonomically different for you, but it widen the appeal to many others. Plenty of people want the evf (it makes total sense if you shoot outside the 28-50 range, and Leica dies cater for them. The integrated evf would just make that so much slicker.


Jan 21, 2022 at 03:26 PM
Desmolicious
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p.18 #13 · Leica M11


airfrogusmc wrote:
I wouldn't add a clunky EVF. If I wanted that I wouldn't be shooting with a Leica M. If I wanted to see through the lens every other digital camera out there does that.


In the Fuji it is not remotely clunky. It is seamless and you wouldn't know it's even there - there is no physical indication, no size increase etc.
I think that the Leica M already peaked w the M10-R. I actually still think 24mp for a digital M is easily enough. An always on meter with now 60mp - not sure the point of it anymore. Put that junk in the SL.



Jan 21, 2022 at 03:36 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.18 #14 · Leica M11


wolfloid Leica M has been kinda making a camera what you describe already. The digital M and they have been pretty successful doing that. And if they caved into what the masses wanted they would be auto focus, function and look like all the cameras already out there. Thank God they haven't caved to the masses over the years. Probably one of the reasons they are still successful.

Edited on Jan 21, 2022 at 04:12 PM · View previous versions



Jan 21, 2022 at 03:38 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.18 #15 · Leica M11


Desmolicious wrote:
In the Fuji it is not remotely clunky. It is seamless and you wouldn't know it's even there - there is no physical indication, no size increase etc.
I think that the Leica M already peaked w the M10-R. I actually still think 24mp for a digital M is easily enough. An always on meter with now 60mp - not sure the point of it anymore. Put that junk in the SL.


I would say the M 10 Mono is the peak and for color maybe the M 10 P.




Jan 21, 2022 at 03:40 PM
wolfloid
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p.18 #16 · Leica M11


wolfloid Leica M has been kinda making a camera what you describe already.

Not to my knowledge, they haven’t. The integrated evf would add a very welcome extra for people who want to shoot quickly, but accurately outside the 28-50 range. As Desmoliscious says, if integrated in the way Fuji has implemented it, you would not even know the facility was there, until you discovered that you could move the front of body switch in a particular direction (It looks like the Leica frame line selector). You could use the camera for years and not discover that the facility is there.



Jan 21, 2022 at 05:00 PM
RustyBug
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p.18 #17 · Leica M11


Back in the day ... I carried ONE body. Nikon FE ... all the way until digital. Granted, that was an SLR, but it was about as simple as they come. Didn't even need a battery, as it had a mechanical 1/90 shutter. Of course, today, we have electrons pushing digits, so battery is part of it. But, my point is that ONE body served my varied needs. How so ... ummm, we changed FILM to our need.

But, we longed for a solution that allowed us to NOT have to change film for every occasion, and dreamed of being able to do our own profiles, etc. So, here we are with that very thing before us. Leica getting down to ISO 64 - 50,000, and all the other aspects that have come along (other mfr's too), have gotten us to that point. So, with the film / profile aspect pretty much in place, it becomes a matter of glass and body choices.

Pick your glass, then your body. Or pick your body, then your glass.

If someone is looking for a ONE body solution to carry that has the versatility to be used for more than just one thing ... what ONE body, would you pick? Bear in mind, that the if the body isn't the M, you forego the RF option (pseudo Fuji, maybe). If the one body IS the M, well why can't it be used for landscape, etc.

Even if the split is 80% RF, and 20% non-RF, the versatility and impact of only having ONE body to carry vs. the "I have another system ..." has its own inherent value, imo.

To me, Leica is judiciously adding some versatility ... without degrading the (watch for the M11-P) RF experience. To the earlier point regarding RF experience peaking, if folks don't have a desire for increased versatility, then they are either very focused in their utilization, or they have a different system to augment the M (or vice verse).

Sometimes we talk in silo's omitting certain other facts (like, we have multiple systems), or we only use camera X for situation Y. For me, the prospect of having a single carry body that can roll with whatever comes my way, is something that I find value in. While I CAN shoot with just about any camera out there, it sure would be nice to just be daily shooting with ONE camera (and having APS-C jr. as a backup, or super-tele). For me, I'm looking toward that being either the M10-R or the M11-P (pending what the -P variant brings to the table) ... working my way back to the Nikon FE (simple, single body), just with Leica instead, this go 'round.

So, if you were to have only ONE body ... what ONE would you choose?



Jan 21, 2022 at 05:03 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.18 #18 · Leica M11


wolfloid wrote:
Not to my knowledge, they haven’t. The integrated evf would add a very welcome extra for people who want to shoot quickly, but accurately outside the 28-50 range. As Desmoliscious says, if integrated in the way Fuji has implemented it, you would not even know the facility was there, until you discovered that you could move the front of body switch in a particular direction (It looks like the Leica frame line selector). You could use the camera for years and not discover that the facility is there.


I was referring to the fact they make a very uncluttered camera. I'd like them to keep it that way and if they are smart they will.



Jan 21, 2022 at 05:23 PM
zhangyue
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p.18 #19 · Leica M11


RustyBug wrote:
To me, Leica is judiciously adding some versatility ... without degrading the (watch for the M11-P) RF experience. To the earlier point regarding RF experience peaking, if folks don't have a desire for increased versatility, then they are either very focused in their utilization, or they have a different system to augment the M (or vice verse).


This is right! I don't have to have just one system but highly possible I will just bring a M for travel to take care of everything. Don't disregard M's landscape capability. It is the single easiest MILC body in field to use. I said many time before, this is the best MILC form I ever used in field shooting. Direct dial for everything, OVF viewing, RF focus independent with aperture, accurate barrel DOF and distance scale, reliable infinity mark etc....

Only after using it, you will know why you like this for landscape. Now M11 is just even better. I am happy and look forward to using it.

If I want do street, it is no different than a m10 to me other than stronger BATTERY and option to select resolution without any penalty. (both Canon and Nikon's implementation are half baked at boarder line of useless to me, not for this Leica)



Jan 21, 2022 at 05:25 PM
rscheffler
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p.18 #20 · Leica M11


As was perhaps already mentioned, none of the other MILCs currently available also incorporate a rangefinder.

Why can't the rangefinder experience as it exists now, and a SIMPLE and MODERN live view experience coexist in an M body? I'm not talking about live view AF, video, etc. Just a simple, smoothly functioning, lag-free live view shooting experience.

Already since the M240 we have live view in an M but that aspect of the camera has so far been a less satisfactory experience. Slow, laggy, freezes randomly. A very un-Leica, un-M experience. But some of us tolerate it because it expands the usability of the M beyond certain perceived niches while not degrading its ability to operate in those niches. Bring live view up to the same level expected of the rangefinder experience and combined it will continue to be a product that doesn't exist from any other brand.

To me it's clear Leica is heading in this direction based on the past few generations. The M11 is a smoother MILC experience, but could still be better. Meanwhile Leica continues to adhere to its philosophy of simplification where possible. For example the reduced number of buttons on the M11, especially compared to the M240 and M9.

There is one thing I like about the external EVF that would be hard to give up: tilt.

I don't think any one is suggesting compromising the rangefinder experience and I would not be interested in an M with live view but without a rangefinder.



Jan 21, 2022 at 06:39 PM
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