Archive 2021 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
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p.33 #1 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
duncang wrote:
Well I just had a fun afternoon out with the Z9(500PF+1.4TC) last week - sadly not a single swallow image to show for it - and there were plenty about, flying relatively close in a predicable pattern just above the water.
As a reference here is one from the A1. I just grabbed it for a few quick shots to double check there wasn’t something strange going on with the weather(!) - maybe a solar flare affecting electronics.
Not sure w*f is wrong with the Z9 af but it sure does not like swallows.
In fact I was stunned at how it point blank refused to pick them up - that is super disappointing.
I tried every af mode and even with pre-focus where the bird is clearly in focus in the view finder the cameras af just hops off into the ether somewhere. Strange.
It also seemed to really struggle with small terns - its like they were invisible to the camera despite being brightly lit against a dark cloudy sky - you would think it couldn't be easier. See pics at the end taken with the A1.
And for bigger birds really one has to use Wide Area S for best results or it is quite slow to pick them up. Wide Area L is like Wide Area Medium on the Sony but noticeably slower at detecting and acquiring the birds.
I found Auto AF (full frame mode) did not pick anything up so not useful for birds in flight.
And the EVF was dismal for the small birds imo. The typical jerky motion that one sees with slow refresh rates. No noticeable lag though.
All up gets an epic fail from me for my kind of fast action with small subjects - it is just hopeless at fast subject detection and locking on focus - and I mean hopeless - worse than my a6400.
Oh well hopefully they are working hard on some improvements or I find out it was user error. Sadly I doubt it was the latter given there are many others who reported the weird OOF issue.
In my experience it is nothing like the oof issue experienced with other mirrorless camera. This is more like autofocus is just turning off completely or so confused it just stops in its tracks - it was not even hunting - weird.
If anyone has any suggestions as to settings to improve the ability of the camera to even see the small well contrasted birds in the sky (against blue sky, white clouds, dark cloud with sunlit swallows) let me know as it is possible there is some basic setting I missed.
I tried all the AF modes and Wide Area S seemed to be the quickest and most reliable for detecting and locking focus on the bigger birds but even then it will not track them all over the frame.
3D tracking was too small a box to put on a flying swallow.
I was using animal detect only and tried with swallows at various distances. Usually one has to acquire them a bit of a distance off in order to track then as they come closer but I had no success ever of the camera detecting them except the one time only where the bird was directly overhead. That is ONE TIME - I kid you not.
For now I would stick with the A9/A1, R6/R5/R3 for small fast action subjects or even any of the non-stacked Sony's like the a6400, a7riv, a7iv as they at least manage fast acquisition and tracking which is the critical part.
Other than that it is a tank of a camera for sure. The grip lock is not quite up to standard, pretty useless actually and kept getting bumped and unlocked with the resulting unwanted shots from the grip shutter button. Duct tape will solve that though.
Some pics of the lit up terns that also seemed to be somewhat challenging for the focus acquisition.
Pretty harsh comments but there you go. Certainly the exact opposite to my first experiences of picking up the A9 or the R5 where they latch on to anything and everything immediately.
In fact I am pretty sure even my Z6 would have at least acquired the birds even if the lag when shooting made following near impossible. ...Show more →
Horrible light and f/8 max aperture is not really a good recipe to try to get decent shots with any camera and lens. The A1 shot is in focus but the horrible light still ruins the shot. If the advantage of the A1 is it lets you get in focus shots that still look bad because of the conditions, then I don't see that as much of an advantage.
p.33 #3 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Steve Spencer wrote:
Horrible light and f/8 max aperture is not really a good recipe to try to get decent shots with any camera and lens. The A1 shot is in focus but the horrible light still ruins the shot. If the advantage of the A1 is it lets you get in focus shots that still look bad because of the conditions, then I don't see that as much of an advantage.
That's not really the point here now is it? One camera laid an egg in these conditions, the other actually captured some images...that's the point.
Apr 11, 2022 at 10:34 AM
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p.33 #4 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
chez wrote:
That's not really the point here now is it? One camera laid an egg in these conditions, the other actually captured some images...that's the point.
Actually it is the point. Both cameras laid an egg here and we are only talking about differences in the type of egg. To me that doesn't matter. We don't even know if the Sony was at f/6.3 (which might well be the case if the poster used a 200-600 without a TC), then we aren't even talking a similar set up at all. In any event both camera and lens combinations failed in this situation it was just a matter of how bad they failed, which really doesn't matter much to me.
p.33 #5 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Steve Spencer wrote:
Actually it is the point. Both cameras laid an egg here and we are only talking about differences in the type of egg. To me that doesn't matter. We don't even know if the Sony was at f/6.3 (which might well be the case if the poster used a 200-600 without a TC), then we aren't even talking a similar set up at all. In any event both camera and lens combinations failed in this situation it was just a matter of how bad they failed, which really doesn't matter much to me.
Remember your view of accepting unfocused images if they capture the moment. Well with one of these cameras you have the opportunity to capture that moment...with the other not so much. Personally I'd rather have the option of deleting an image during post because it didn't make the grade than just not even getting an image.
Apr 11, 2022 at 11:28 AM
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p.33 #6 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
chez wrote:
Remember your view of accepting unfocused images if they capture the moment. Well with one of these cameras you have the opportunity to capture that moment...with the other not so much. Personally I'd rather have the option of deleting an image during post because it didn't make the grade than just not even getting an image.
I remember my views but you obviously don't and you are distorting them as you did before. I have never advocated having shots with really poor lighting. The lighting is horrible in all these shots, That is the problem with them all.
PS - for the record I never said one should accept unfocussed images that capture the moment. You asked if my goal was to have the eye in focus for my shots. I said that wasn't my goal. That obviously is not the same as saying I accept unfocussed images. That is a huge distortion of what I said.
p.33 #7 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Steve Spencer wrote:
Actually it is the point. Both cameras laid an egg here and we are only talking about differences in the type of egg. To me that doesn't matter. We don't even know if the Sony was at f/6.3 (which might well be the case if the poster used a 200-600 without a TC), then we aren't even talking a similar set up at all. In any event both camera and lens combinations failed in this situation it was just a matter of how bad they failed, which really doesn't matter much to me.
? One camera got the shot the other didn't. Your take with both failing is wrong imo. Only because you don't like the circumstances, it doesn't make the camera fail, it seems to be the artistic outcome you object to, which is your right of course. And of course one should additionally check settings etc. when comparing both cameras.
Apr 11, 2022 at 12:20 PM
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p.33 #8 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Holger wrote:
? One camera got the shot the other didn't. Your take with both failing is wrong imo. Only because you don't like the circumstances, it doesn't make the camera fail, it seems to be the artistic outcome you object to, which is your right of course. And of course one should additionally check settings etc. when comparing both cameras.
I think the question is what it means to get the shot. You seem to be equating getting the shot with getting the shot in focus. I am not. To me getting the shot means not only getting the shot in focus but also having acceptable lighting and I could add a couple other minimum characteristics as well, but I won't here. Simply put the lighting isn't acceptable in any of these shots, so IMO he did not get any of the shots. You of course can have a different opinion, but I am not willing to say he got the shot with lighting that is that bad.
PS - compare this poster's results with Steve Perry's results using the new 800 PF in this video:
Note also what Steve says when he compares his impression with the Z9 and this lens to other systems (spoiler alert he thinks the Z9 800PF is as good as any combination he has used including the Sony A1). He will test more later, but even in pretty flat light he is getting dramatically different results than were reported in the post above.
p.33 #9 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Steve Spencer wrote:
I remember my views but you obviously don't and you are distorting them as you did before. I have never advocated having shots with really poor lighting. The lighting is horrible in all these shots, That is the problem with them all.
PS - for the record I never said one should accept unfocussed images that capture the moment. You asked if my goal was to have the eye in focus for my shots. I said that wasn't my goal. That obviously is not the same as saying I accept unfocussed images. That is a huge distortion of what I said....Show more →
Personally Steve I want to be in charge of determining when the conditions are not that good for an image...not my camera.
Apr 11, 2022 at 12:56 PM
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p.33 #10 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
chez wrote:
Personally Steve I want to be in charge of determining when the conditions are not that good for an image...not my camera.
Good for you. I do too. What on Earth would make you think that I would feel differently?
p.33 #11 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Steve Spencer wrote:
Good for you. I do too. What on Earth would make you think that I would feel differently?
Well you seem to think because a camera gives up in flat lighting...then it's OK. Many images are made in not the greatest lighting...that's life in the real world.
Apr 11, 2022 at 01:00 PM
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p.33 #12 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
chez wrote:
Well you seem to think because a camera gives up in flat lighting...then it's OK. Many images are made in not the greatest lighting...that's life in the real world.
Once again you distort my position as saying something I am not saying. What I am saying is that in the post above neither camera was able to get good shots in what was apparently terrible lighting. I actually said neither shot was ok. You are the one who seems to be saying that a shot with terrible lighting that is in focus is ok. I don't share that view The shot above in terrible lighting that is in focus, IMO, is still not ok. For me it would never be a keeper. It wouldn't even make it off the card. You are free to think otherwise. It is fine if all you care about an image is whether it is in focus. All I am saying is that is not my standard. If it is yours that is up to you. What I don't think is appropriate is saying that I was OK with the images from either camera in the post above. Further I think Steve Perry's video makes it clear that the Z9 can do quite well in pretty flat lighting with the right lens and the right approach. He certainly did not seem to have any trouble with the camera giving up in flat light.
p.33 #13 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Steve Spencer wrote:
Once again you distort my position as saying something I am not saying. What I am saying is that in the post above neither camera was able to get good shots in what was apparently terrible lighting. I actually said neither shots were ok. You are the one who seems to be saying that a shot with terrible lighting that is in focus is ok. I don't share that view The shot that above in terrible lighting that is in focus, IMO, is still not ok. For me it would never be a keeper. It wouldn't even make it off the card. You are free to think otherwise. It is fine if all you care about an image is whether it is in focus. All I am saying is that is not my standard. If it is yours that is up to you. What I don't think is appropriate is saying that I was OK with the images from either camera in the post above. Further I think Steve Perry's video makes it clear that the Z9 can do quite well in pretty flat lighting with the right lens and the right approach. He certainly did not seem to have any trouble with the camera giving up in flat light. ...Show more →
But aren't you sort of stretching things here and confusing things between not so great an image because of the lighting on the one hand and a camera just not being able to function in that lighting on the other hand. We are after all talking about the AF abilities of the cameras here, are we not.
p.33 #14 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Steve Spencer wrote:
I think the question is what it means to get the shot. You seem to be equating getting the shot with getting the shot in focus. I am not. To me getting the shot means not only getting the shot in focus but also having acceptable lighting and I could add a couple other minimum characteristics as well, but I won't here. Simply put the lighting isn't acceptable in any of these shots, so IMO he did not get any of the shots. You of course can have a different opinion, but I am not willing to say he got the shot with lighting that is that bad.
PS - compare this poster's results with Steve Perry's results using the new 800 PF in this video:
Note also what Steve says when he compares his impression with the Z9 and this lens to other systems (spoiler alert he thinks the Z9 800PF is as good as any combination he has used including the Sony A1). He will test more later, but even in pretty flat light he is getting dramatically different results than were reported in the post above....Show more →
Did you see a single challenging BIF in that entire video...spoiler alert...no you didn't. Those were dead simple subjects that a circa 2008 DSLR could nail without issue. I mean come on, a huge Great egret flying by? A Snowy egret landing? A hovering Ibis? A RSH launching off a post?
I can attest that even in perfect light there is no suitable mode to shoot swallows on the Z9. Auto should be that mode as it was on the excellent swallow shooting cameras D500 and D850 but the Z9 Auto is garbage. 3D has such a small starting box that it is impossible to get onto a small bird (and the algorithms are still garbage and jump to everything but your subject even when the thing is perched and doing nothing). The only chance for swallows on a Z9 is Large Wide Area with subject detect on and a sensitivity setting of 5 so that it doesn't time out too fast and should track across the frame. It is very difficult for swallows to keep a Large Wide Area over a swallow....especially if you are after the moment it banks or darts for a bug. I'm not sure if that would work or not as I didn't have swallows around to test but I had trouble on other smaller birds that aren't nearly as fast as swallows. I'm pretty confident I could get some photos of swallows with the Z9 if I cherry-pick my location and wind conditions but it is certainly not up to Canon R3/R5 and Sony A9/A9II/A1. Even my A7RIV worked for swallows if you could get over the poor EVF experience.
Apr 11, 2022 at 01:13 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.33 #15 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
chez wrote:
But aren't you sort of stretching things here and confusing things between not so great an image because of the lighting on the one hand and a camera just not being able to function in that lighting on the other hand. We are after all talking about the AF abilities of the cameras here, are we not.
No, I am talking about neither camera being able to function to an acceptable level in the conditions in which the poster was shooting. What I am saying specifically is if the camera gets the image in focus but the lighting is so terrible it is still a shot I would delete immediately then I don't care that the camera can get the shot in focus. Why would I? I am not merely talking about AF, but something much more important--can the camera and lens combination get an image that is acceptable.
Apr 11, 2022 at 01:15 PM
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p.33 #16 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
arbitrage wrote:
Did you see a single challenging BIF in that entire video...spoiler alert...no you didn't. Those were dead simple subjects that a circa 2008 DSLR could nail without issue. I mean come on, a huge Great egret flying by? A Snowy egret landing? A hovering Ibis? A RSH launching off a post?
I can attest that even in perfect light there is no suitable mode to shoot swallows on the Z9. Auto should be that mode as it was on the excellent swallow shooting cameras D500 and D850 but the Z9 Auto is garbage. 3D has such a small starting box that it is impossible to get onto a small bird (and the algorithms are still garbage and jump to everything but your subject even when the thing is perched and doing nothing). The only chance for swallows on a Z9 is Large Wide Area with subject detect on and a sensitivity setting of 5 so that it doesn't time out too fast and should track across the frame. It is very difficult for swallows to keep a Large Wide Area over a swallow....especially if you are after the moment it banks or darts for a bug. I'm not sure if that would work or not as I didn't have swallows around to test but I had trouble on other smaller birds that aren't nearly as fast as swallows. I'm pretty confident I could get some photos of swallows with the Z9 if I cherry-pick my location and wind conditions but it is certainly not up to Canon R3/R5 and Sony A9/A9II/A1. Even my A7RIV worked for swallows if you could get over the poor EVF experience....Show more →
Ok, Geoff. I trust your experience and I have no desire to question it. If you want to shoot swallows the Z9 sounds like it isn't the camera for you. Personally, I shoot exactly the kind of stuff Steve Perry was shooting. I have not gotten and doubt I will ever get a Z9, but the type of comparisons you are talking about not the type in the post above are what is needed to help us out. Testing a camera in dreadful light using a lens with f/8 as the widest aperture, just doesn't tell us much of anything, and a shot with terrible lighting from the A1 from the same outing (with who knows what lens and at what aperture) doesn't add anything either.
p.33 #17 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Steve Spencer wrote:
I think the question is what it means to get the shot. You seem to be equating getting the shot with getting the shot in focus. I am not. To me getting the shot means not only getting the shot in focus but also having acceptable lighting and I could add a couple other minimum characteristics as well, but I won't here. Simply put the lighting isn't acceptable in any of these shots, so IMO he did not get any of the shots. You of course can have a different opinion, but I am not willing to say he got the shot with lighting that is that bad.
PS - compare this poster's results with Steve Perry's results using the new 800 PF in this video:
Note also what Steve says when he compares his impression with the Z9 and this lens to other systems (spoiler alert he thinks the Z9 800PF is as good as any combination he has used including the Sony A1). He will test more later, but even in pretty flat light he is getting dramatically different results than were reported in the post above....Show more →
Again, you can have your opinion what getting the shot means. But you said the camera/lens failed. It didn't. The camera did its job. The photographer is to "blame" for not going out in decent light.
Apr 11, 2022 at 02:22 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.33 #18 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
Holger wrote:
Again, you can have your opinion what getting the shot means. But you said the camera/lens failed. It didn't. The camera did its job. The photographer is to "blame" for not going out in decent light.
I would describe it differently. The camera and lens failed in very difficult circumstances. The camera's job is more than just getting the focus right. Although I doubt any camera could have gotten that shot with today's technology, one can image improved performance in which the camera not only got the focus right but was also able to handle the terrible lighting. Being able to handle bad lighting is something I would like my camera to do and neither camera could do that in this situation.
p.33 #19 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"
The problem with the A1 is that now that all of my friends have one they are all nailing shots of swallows left, right and center and now none of my shots look unique/special anymore. I tried to move onto more difficult subjects like some warblers in flight...the A1 nailed those...then my friends started posting warblers in flight also.
I think my last chance for something more challenging will be hummingbirds in true flight (ie zipping through the air at full speed)....wish me luck
I guess maybe I'll have to try and convince all my friends to switch to the Z9...then my swallow shots may start to look special again
