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Archive 2021 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"

  
 
LBJ2
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p.17 #1 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"


saaketham wrote:
Yes, I shoot with an a1 and 2 Sony lenses as well, although I've only had it for a month or so. The a1 AF is incredible, and tracks critters so well. It inspires total confidence. Shooting BIF with Nikon z6ii and z7ii was a gamble (except larger birds like gulls). Having that kind of confidence, that the camera will find and track the subject well makes you more relaxed and enjoy shooting subjects you would not try in the past.

The a1 and z7ii feel too small in my hands and I dislike add on grips because to me, they
...Show more

Since I know that you also own and use the A1, and if you haven't already give, the Sony Battery Grip a try. I think you will find:

-Highly quality design and build
-Not a clunky after thought
-I believe just as dust/weather resistant as the body
-All the right buttons in all the right places for the all important portrait/landscape hand swap
-Good balance on larger lenses, good ergonomics for my tall hand

Not that I am trying to say the Sony Grip is any better or worse than a built in grip, but if there are any perceived compromises it's well made up for IMO when its comes time to take it off for logistical reasons ( too many to list).

BTW, thanks for posting those Z9 photos in the other thread. Very interesting, in a good way.



Nov 13, 2021 at 08:20 AM
LBJ2
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p.17 #2 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"


arbitrage wrote:
Exactly how I feel wading through the Canon and Nikon forums on a daily basis. Reading months/years of negative comments towards Sony saying no one needs these features and then as soon as their brand of choice adds them they become amazing and "better" than Sony even though no one has even touched the damn camera.


Hasn't it always been that way?

First it was mirrorless, then:
-EVF
-IBIS
-Tilt screen
-DR
-AF points across the sensor
-Real silent shutter
-Slightly smaller/lighter telephotos lenses
-and yes, size.

"We don't need or want any of this stuff"

I guess... that was then, this is now.

The Z9 looks like all of this "stuff" and more.

Welcome aboard !



Nov 13, 2021 at 08:28 AM
saaketham
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p.17 #3 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"


To compare the EVF on the z9, I also picked up a D850. In that store, I didn't find any obvious difference between the OVF and the EVF. It felt equally natural. Brightness was not cranked up on the z9 EVF, as it reportedly goes up to 3000 nits. Playback and normal shooting on the a1 is delightful as you already know well. The z9 seemed to lack that "Wow, this is so clear" factor, but felt natural and smooth. Of course, I am not sure how it feels for fast panning and tracking birds.

As for the a1 grip, maybe I should try it. Yes, being able to take it off is really a good thing if you want just 1 body that can handle any kind of shooting. I am afraid I'll not like the add on grip, but will definitely try at a store. Thanks for the suggestion.



Nov 13, 2021 at 08:34 AM
ChrisMak
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p.17 #4 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"


saaketham wrote:
Yes, I shoot with an a1 and 2 Sony lenses as well, although I've only had it for a month or so. The a1 AF is incredible, and tracks critters so well. It inspires total confidence. Shooting BIF with Nikon z6ii and z7ii was a gamble (except larger birds like gulls). Having that kind of confidence, that the camera will find and track the subject well makes you more relaxed and enjoy shooting subjects you would not try in the past.

The a1 and z7ii feel too small in my hands and I dislike add on grips because to me, they
...Show more

I see, I could not afford multiple high end systems myself even if I wanted to, but if you have the choice, why not?
Did you fall for the Nikon PF lenses after all though? I am thinking of selling my 500PF upfront. It's a great and revolutionary lens, but I never truly liked the rendering, so I let the idea of a 800PF go.



Nov 13, 2021 at 08:39 AM
saaketham
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p.17 #5 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"


No, not a fan of the 500 PF still. I prefer f/4 or Sony 200-600 which gives similar background blur but gets me to 600 and takes a 1.4x TC well, although heavier and bulkier than the PF. I plan to go travel in Asia next year, where the wildlife variety and activity are incredible (wild tigers, elephants, leopards, all kinds of beautiful birds). Thinking of taking a1, 200-600, a backup (a6600 or a9 maybe?) and the 35 GM. From the roof of my sister's house in Asia, I can shoot parrots, kites, barbets, cuckoos, mongoose etc. The 200-600 will be ideal for it.

But you asked what lenses I would mount on it, so I listed the ones I thought would be fun to use on a z9.

ChrisMak wrote:
I see, I could not afford multiple high end systems myself even if I wanted to, but if you have the choice, why not?
Did you fall for the Nikon PF lenses after all though? I am thinking of selling my 500PF upfront. It's a great and revolutionary lens, but I never truly liked the rendering, so I let the idea of a 800PF go.




Nov 13, 2021 at 09:15 AM
ChrisMak
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p.17 #6 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"


What I became very aware of when comparing the 500PF to the Sigma 500mm f4S at f5.6, is that the actual shooting aperture is only part of the story, and not even the main part, in how a lens performs regarding subject separation, OOF rendering and 3D like rendering. I will probably settle for a Sony A1 and 600GM with short hood and call it a day. It's been highly educational trying out various brands and lens concepts though.

It sounds like a great trip you have ahead. I don't lose awareness of the fact that it is all about time spent in nature and amongst animals/birds, even though I have a fondness for good optical equipment.

saaketham wrote:
No, not a fan of the 500 PF still. I prefer f/4 or Sony 200-600 which gives similar background blur but gets me to 600 and takes a 1.4x TC well, although heavier and bulkier than the PF. I plan to go travel in Asia next year, where the wildlife variety and activity are incredible (wild tigers, elephants, leopards, all kinds of beautiful birds). Thinking of taking a1, 200-600, a backup (a6600 or a9 maybe?) and the 35 GM. From the roof of my sister's house in Asia, I can shoot parrots, kites, barbets, cuckoos, mongoose etc. The 200-600 will
...Show more




Nov 13, 2021 at 11:43 AM
zhangyue
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p.17 #7 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"


That is the feeling I have with Z6/7 compare to others I used. Low on spec but surprisingly smooth and analog remind me OVF the most.
However, under strong mid day light, snow or beach, none of EVF camera can compete with real world lightness to not impact viewing experience. I am curious for Nikon’s claim of lightness number for its new EVF and wonder if it can change experience under those situations.

saaketham wrote:
To compare the EVF on the z9, I also picked up a D850. In that store, I didn't find any obvious difference between the OVF and the EVF. It felt equally natural. Brightness was not cranked up on the z9 EVF, as it reportedly goes up to 3000 nits. Playback and normal shooting on the a1 is delightful as you already know well. The z9 seemed to lack that "Wow, this is so clear" factor, but felt natural and smooth. Of course, I am not sure how it feels for fast panning and tracking birds.

As for the a1 grip, maybe
...Show more



Nov 13, 2021 at 12:25 PM
osv2
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p.17 #8 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"


the problem isn't caused by a dim oled in the evf, it's because factory eyecups don't block out the ambient light.

sunlight bleeding into the eyecup requires a brighter screen to compete with it, similar to how you can't see a smartphone screen in sunlight.

you can easily turn up the brightness on any sony evf, until it blows out the whites and ruins the wysiwyg experience... or, you can get a big soft aftermarket eyecup, and use an evf that you calibrated the brightness on, so it actually shows you the shot you'll be getting.

it works the same way as a quality oled tv in your house works... oled has the best deep blacks of any display technology, but it's not the best choice for bright rooms in daylight.

the drawback with oled is that whites and bright areas consume up to 3x more power than it does on the rear lcd screen, and nikon made that worse by jacking up the brightness levels in the oled evf, it's probably one of the reasons why the z9 has weak battery life.

if we were shooting hdr we might want a brighter oled evf, but then how can hdr be wysiwyg... canon, nikon, olympus, etc. are not wysiwyg platforms.

zhangyue wrote:
That is the feeling I have with Z6/7 compare to others I used. Low on spec but surprisingly smooth and analog remind me OVF the most.
However, under strong mid day light, snow or beach, none of EVF camera can compete with real world lightness to not impact viewing experience. I am curious for Nikon’s claim of lightness number for its new EVF and wonder if it can change experience under those situations.






Nov 13, 2021 at 01:33 PM
Dave Sanders
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p.17 #9 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"


osv2 wrote:
the problem isn't caused by a dim oled in the evf, it's because factory eyecups don't block out the ambient light.

sunlight bleeding into the eyecup requires a brighter screen to compete with it, similar to how you can't see a smartphone screen in sunlight.

you can easily turn up the brightness on any sony evf, until it blows out the whites and ruins the wysiwyg experience... or, you can get a big soft aftermarket eyecup, and use an evf that you calibrated the brightness on, so it actually shows you the shot you'll be getting.

it works the same way as a
...Show more

I think it's tricky...what does wysiwyg really mean in this context? I've never seen a camera that is truly wysiwyg in terms of exposure. In the film days, the film determined dynamic range and colour and, as in digital with OVF, the human eye/brain image capture device has way more dynamic range than film or sensor, hence the battle with getting exposure right. Accurate histograms are a great tool, but not infallible.

With the advent of EVFs, every EVF I've used, Sony or otherwise, isn't entirely accurate, not in JPEG and not in RAW. I'm always able to pull more detail out of highlights in post than the EVF ever indicates that I have. Ditto for pulling shadows.

For me, it still leaves me getting as close as possible with image review and the histogram then doing what I want to do in post.



Nov 13, 2021 at 03:32 PM
randomguy
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p.17 #10 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"


I like that the A1 is compact but the day someone makes a gripped camera and uses the extra space for dual processors for even higher performance and better eye AF on animals/birds, then my preference may change.


Nov 13, 2021 at 03:38 PM
LBJ2
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p.17 #11 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"


randomguy wrote:
I like that the A1 is compact but the day someone makes a gripped camera and uses the extra space for dual processors for even higher performance and better eye AF on animals/birds, then my preference may change.


You would probably not be alone. One thing about many Sony shooters is we do like the latest tech! Bring it



Nov 13, 2021 at 03:41 PM
osv2
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p.17 #12 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"


Dave Sanders wrote:
I think it's tricky...what does wysiwyg really mean in this context? I've never seen a camera that is truly wysiwyg in terms of exposure. In the film days, the film determined dynamic range and colour and, as in digital with OVF, the human eye/brain image capture device has way more dynamic range than film or sensor, hence the battle with getting exposure right. Accurate histograms are a great tool, but not infallible.


in-camera histograms are all based on the jpg not the raw, so they can't accurately represent what the raw is, but it's a heck of a lot closer than you'll ever get with ovf and film

Dave Sanders wrote:
With the advent of EVFs, every EVF I've used, Sony or otherwise, isn't entirely accurate, not in JPEG and not in RAW. I'm always able to pull more detail out of highlights in post than the EVF ever indicates that I have. Ditto for pulling shadows.


yes it's tricky, with sony it only works when you calibrate the evf for brightness, which you didn't mention doing, so you may be way off just from that.

in-camera jpg processing can affect it, and video profiles can also change the appearance of jpg stills... as far as pushing raws, you also have to calibrate the zebra pattern highlight warning, if using it.

with canon and olympus you'll probably have to use the physical dof preview buttons to get some semblance of wysiwyg, because they hold the aperture open all the time, it's the same fail mode that dslrs have.

but none of that addresses the core issue being discussed, which was light bleeding onto the oled evf screen and ruining the picture... some people even use sunglasses while shooting :-0





Nov 13, 2021 at 03:56 PM
dallvr
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p.17 #13 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"


chez wrote:
Tripod?


Yes, certainly on a tripod. With a grip on the camera to make sure you get enough frames. With star trails, I have sometimes let the camera run until the batteries are exhausted.




Nov 13, 2021 at 07:26 PM
zhangyue
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p.17 #14 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"


osv2 wrote:
the problem isn't caused by a dim oled in the evf, it's because factory eyecups don't block out the ambient light.

sunlight bleeding into the eyecup requires a brighter screen to compete with it, similar to how you can't see a smartphone screen in sunlight.

you can easily turn up the brightness on any sony evf, until it blows out the whites and ruins the wysiwyg experience... or, you can get a big soft aftermarket eyecup, and use an evf that you calibrated the brightness on, so it actually shows you the shot you'll be getting.

it works the same way as a
...Show more

Yes, covering EVF avoid light bleeding helps. However, anytime, you remove your eye from EVF and back to EVF, you need adjust your eye to get use to EVF again. That is just the way human seeing. This problem is very fundermental. I haven't found a single EVF based camera solve this for me. I wish they have AI based EVF tech that can adjust brightness based on scene. However, I bet it will be still challenge to work for example shooting from sun to shade on fly back and forth etc...

I can turn on histogram,(helpful but not raw based) but it will make a cluster EVF screen and distracting. however, this won't help viewing at all. 8 bit JPEG EVF feed will always has issue here for high dynamic range scene because there is 15 stop DR in sensor. Our eyes can make our subject at right exposure naturally. (OVF did a similar job here) but if you do that with EVF under HDR scene, highlight will be blown. If you want keep the highlight, subject will be dark.

Having strong ambient such like snow, beach etc post another challenge to keep right amount of lightness to view. Just like increasing or decrease LCD/monitor brightness to fight ambient or treat it as exposure tool is a terrible way to make judgement for final print.

In that sense, EVF is never real WYSWYG for me and it is a terrible tool to judge exposure under high DR daylight shooting. And for experienced photographer, WYSWYG is hardly needed. However, for focusing, for low light, for soft light shooting, EVF is a great tool.

---------------------------------------------

Dave Sanders wrote:
I think it's tricky...what does wysiwyg really mean in this context? I've never seen a camera that is truly wysiwyg in terms of exposure. In the film days, the film determined dynamic range and colour and, as in digital with OVF, the human eye/brain image capture device has way more dynamic range than film or sensor, hence the battle with getting exposure right. Accurate histograms are a great tool, but not infallible.

With the advent of EVFs, every EVF I've used, Sony or otherwise, isn't entirely accurate, not in JPEG and not in RAW. I'm always able to pull
...Show more

I agree. I never buy the WYSWYG term for EVF based camera personally. (it might work more than not during shooting though) It is just another useful tool having trade off. EVF need to be smarter to mimic human eye response. I can see that happen in the future from AI based tech to do scene based auto correction. However, at the time EVF fully mimic OVF experience or human eyes, What you see in the EVF guaranteed won't be what you get



Edited on Nov 13, 2021 at 09:23 PM · View previous versions



Nov 13, 2021 at 07:59 PM
duncang
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p.17 #15 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"


arbitrage wrote:
Exactly how I feel wading through the Canon and Nikon forums on a daily basis. Reading months/years of negative comments towards Sony saying no one needs these features and then as soon as their brand of choice adds them they become amazing and "better" than Sony even though no one has even touched the damn camera.



Not just better but "Game Changing" for the industry - as if.

DSLR diehards seem to have gone a bit quiet though.

BTW get some 240fps slow motion footage of your birds in flight . I think it is pretty cool and adds another dimension.

Here is my amateuristic first test using the A1 slow motion 1080p/240fps which is 10x slow mo.

Who would have thought that swallows row through the air. Check the action of their wings.

Even 10x slow mo is not slow enough for the wrens though.







Nov 13, 2021 at 08:35 PM
patotts
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p.17 #16 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"


I got to handle the Z9 today at the local AD trunk show - it feels amazing in the hands, the AF seems to be on par with Canon and Sony, but it is just way too heavy. I took out the battery and took off the lens, and it is really the body construction that makes it weigh so much. I put an adapter on it and mounted the F-mount 70-200/2.8 - the weight not to my liking. I also handled the Canon R3 and the Sony A1 side-by-side -- I'll stick to the latter.


Nov 13, 2021 at 08:38 PM
osv2
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p.17 #17 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"


zhangyue wrote:
Yes, covering EVF avoid light bleeding helps. However, anytime, you remove your eye from EVF and back to EVF, you need adjust again. That is just the way human seeing.


the human eye does not need to adjust when a sony evf is properly calibrated for brightness, using a big aftermarket eyecup.

i shoot action sports on the beach and in the desert, been doing it for many years, never had a problem with that, so it's clearly an issue with how your gear is setup... i guess that you could have vision problems tho, probably should get it checked.

zhangyue wrote:
Having strong ambient such like snow, beach etc post another challenge to keep right amount of lightness to view. Just like increasing or decrease LCD brightness to fight ambient is a terrible way to make judgement for final print.


no, lcd is not shielded from ambient outside light, so it's nothing like shooting with an oled evf that's fully shielded from ambient light... you really aren't getting this.

your post reminds me of a thread where some idiot kept complaining about sony evf, saying things that were illogical... after a couple of pages he admitted that he was shooting with polarized sunglasses, but of course he repeatedly claimed it wasn't a factor, it could only be a faulty evf.

i wonder if he also watched tv with polarized sunglasses on?

Edited on Nov 13, 2021 at 09:15 PM · View previous versions



Nov 13, 2021 at 09:05 PM
zhangyue
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p.17 #18 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"


osv2 wrote:
the human eye does not need to adjust when a sony evf is properly calibrated for brightness, using a big aftermarket eyecup.

i shoot action sports on the beach and in the desert, been doing it for many years, never had a problem with that, so it's clearly an issue with how your gear is setup... i guess that you could have vision problems tho, probably should get it checked.


no, lcd is not shielded from ambient outside light, so it's nothing like shooting with an evf that's fully shielded from ambient light... you really aren't getting this.

your post reminds me
...Show more

Zero information other than full of nonsense and rudeness. No point even respond anymore. bigger brain will help maybe?



Nov 13, 2021 at 09:13 PM
osv2
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p.17 #19 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"


zhangyue wrote:
Zero information other than full of nonsense and rudeness. No point even respond anymore. bigger brain will help maybe?


you sound exactly like a dslr owner, making claims that evf is garbage and nobody needs wysiwyg... next you'll be telling us that ovf is better, and polarized sunglasses don't matter.




Nov 13, 2021 at 09:23 PM
arcticfocus
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p.17 #20 · "Nikon Z9 vs Sony A1 – The 10 main differences"




randomguy wrote:
I like that the A1 is compact but the day someone makes a gripped camera and uses the extra space for dual processors for even higher performance and better eye AF on animals/birds, then my preference may change.


Pretty sure the A1 already uses dual XR processors. The A7S III and the A7 IV use a single XR processor.



Nov 13, 2021 at 09:33 PM
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