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Archive 2021 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?

  
 
Ming-Tzu
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p.1 #1 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


In the past, I've gotten wonderful advice from this forum on sports photography (e.g. lenses, settings, positioning, NR adjustments, etc.). For the most part, I am happy with my field sports photography (e.g. soccer, baseball, etc.). But my indoor sports pictures are somewhat lacking (imo) because the school's gym isn't that great as far as lighting and my NR skills are lackluster. Currently, I am probably shooting around 20,000 ISO at f2.8 and 500-640 SS. For indoor, I primarily use a 1dx2/5d4 and 24/70 L and 70-200 L.

I was thinking of maybe setting up 1-2 off-camera flashes and see if I could use lower ISO settings, but have been reluctant in the past to use any sort of flash indoors because I feel like it might be a distraction. But my thinking has mainly been on-camera and never really considered that maybe off-camera flash might be better, especially if the flashes are off to the side of the court and not directly ahead of the player?

For example, indoor volleyball. My thinking is maybe setting up a flash stand maybe 5-10 feet on the side of the court, pointing towards my school's site of the net. I would be situated as always, underneath the judge's stand. Would a flash this far away from the court and off to the side be a distraction to the player who is getting ready to strike the ball? Same example for indoor basketball. Flash stand 5-10 feet on the side of the court near-ish to the corner where my school is on offense. If the player goes in for a layup or jump shot, will a flash that far away be a distraction?

I realize these aren't pro players, hence my hesitation to be a distraction. I'm just trying to figure out if there's a better way to snap more quality pictures for indoor sports (outside of PP).

Thanks for any feedback!



Oct 21, 2021 at 12:42 PM
jeffbuzz
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p.1 #2 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


Always get permission before using strobes indoors or out. Some leagues have written policies on this. At HS or college level you should talk to coaches and refs before using any strobes especially indoors. Remote strobes pose an entirely different set of challenges as you are now deploying equipment which is out of your physical control. There can be liability issues there.


Oct 21, 2021 at 01:37 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #3 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


I'd start off talking to your school's coaches for the sports you want to try this and maybe set up something during a practice to work out the logistics of where to locate the lights. It would be a good trial run to figure out coverage, power output requirements, exposures, etc. And for the athletes to give feedback on how distracting it might be for them.

From my experience doing this for university level basketball, no one complained. When their minds are in the game, it seems they don't notice these things. But those gyms were also large enough for proper stand seating with an upper level concourse where I could set up lights. That said, it's a possible excuse for coaches, particularly visiting teams to use if/when their team is playing poorly.

I never tried it for volleyball, but would have a bit more concern here because players are constantly looking up, jumping and timing when to hit the ball. It could be possible that a flash right at a key moment could be distracting. (For this reason I generally avoided shooting basketball free throws on strobe, at least when it really mattered to a game's outcome).

As already suggested, by bringing in lighting equipment, you change the dynamic of it being a relatively unobtrusive photo-enthusiast parent photographing their kid's games to requiring additional space on the gym floor, possibly causing hazards and the resulting liability questions that might be raised. I agree with others. It's almost to the point where I wouldn't bother unless there was enough room.

You also have to consider your shooting technique will change drastically. You'll be timing everything for one shot and won't be able to rely on high fps bursts. Meaning, you'll have many fewer total images and possibly many fewer keepers, too.

In terms of equipment, key factors for the strobes you use are: short (fast) flash duration, sufficient power, quick recycling. Also: battery or AC power?

Battery powered offers a lot of simplicity and eliminates the potential hazard introduced by cables. It's possible you'd have to run extension cords, or end up running AC powered lights off battery powered inverters (such as Paul C Buff's Vagabond Mini). But while most of these battery powered strobes have pretty good endurance, you could run into a situation of having to change out a battery at an inopportune time. That said, with HS sports this might not be a factor.

There are a lot of battery powered monolights on the market now, but pretty much all of them have relatively poor (slow/long) flash duration at their higher power settings. That said, all that are TTL capable are IGBT controlled, which means as you reduce power output, flash duration shortens considerably. And of course, recycle time improves. Basically, you'll probably want to get units that are overpowered for your needs and use them at a medium power output to benefit from faster flash duration and recycle time. Bigger units also have better heat management and are less likely to prematurely shut down due to their internal thermal management systems.

You want short/fast flash duration times because this is effectively your shutter speed, and when shooting sports, you want as fast a shutter speed as possible to minimize motion blur. Keep in mind there are a couple ways manufacturers report flash duration times. There's t.5 and t.1. For example, 1/1000 t.5 looks better for marketing, 1/1000 t.1 is technically more difficult to achieve at the same power output (more expensive equipment). Strobe output typically has a quick peak and then tails off. IIRC some of this is dependent on flash tube design. Some have a very sharp initial peak with most of the output at the very beginning, while others are have a more gradual peak and a longer tail of significant output after the peak. There are benefits to both, but for what you want to do, shorter/faster flash duration at or near your camera's normal flash shutter sync speed is preferred. This is complicated by IGBT because it effectively quenches/cuts off the tail-end of the strobe's light output, which is why flash durations get shorter with these types of units as power is decreased because the flash tube's output is cut off sooner at lower power settings (this is also how all TTL capable Speedlite type flash units work).

It's probably easier just to read the info at this link: https://www.paulcbuff.com/Flash-Duration.html

IMO, you probably want faster than 1/1000 t.1 output to really freeze motion (but the question of when is 'good enough' good enough comes into play because you can chase perfection here, like with all things photography, and just end up spending a lot more money for marginally better technical results). A lot of these units will also do HSS (high speed sync), allowing you to shoot above your camera's normal maximum flash sync shutter speed. HSS works by pulsing output rapidly - like stroboscopic mode on Speedlites - to maintain an even output as the shutter opening travels across the sensor. This could also be an option for what you want to do, but HSS typically results in reduced exposure relative to the actual output and puts more thermal strain on the strobe. Meaning again, you'd probably want an overpowered/larger unit to be sure you had enough power, fast enough recycle times, and it could sufficiently manage the potential thermal issues.

Power output/exposure is also a fine balance between just enough and too much or too little. Too much and you're potentially wasting battery endurance. It could also be more of a distraction for athletes and spectators. Too little and you'll get too much ambient light mixing in, which will result in ghosting and color casts in areas shaded from the strobe exposure. The general rule back in the days was you wanted strobes to be three stops more powerful than ambient. So for your ISO 20,000 at 1/500 ambient, you'd want to be working at around ISO 1250 at 1/250 (camera's max normal flash sync speed). You could also experiment with going into HSS at 1/500 ISO 2500 or 1/1000 ISO 5000.

As for how to position the lights.... I think you'd want a minimum of two, but more will better light up a full court. Not that you will be shooting action on the full court, but when you have just one or two lights set up, you will usually end up with dark backgrounds, which can look unattractive. If you can only put the lights on stands on the gym floor, then at least get quality 13' light stands, and if possible, bounce the light off a white/light colored wall or ceiling (another reason you'll probably need more powerful units). If you're able to put lights up in an elevated position, such as bleachers off to the side, then you could experiment with more direct lighting. But my preference would still be to bounce, if possible, for more even, diffused illumination. Oh, and you want to attach some weights/sandbags to the base of the stands to prevent them being knocked over, especially if you're hoisting a 5-6lb light up to maximum height. Remember that flash tubes and their protective housings are glass and shatter on impact.

Edited on Oct 21, 2021 at 03:36 PM · View previous versions



Oct 21, 2021 at 03:13 PM
Robin Smith
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p.1 #4 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


Flash or extra lighting on the court sounds completely impractical to me. I can't imagine any of the HS basketball games I shoot even considering such a thing. You just have to suck it up and shoot with available light. I am usually at 1/1250 @ f2.8 anywhere from 6400 to 25600 depending on the light. More usual is 12,800. If I am at 20,000+ then I usually drop the shutter speed to 1/800 or 1/1000 to push the ISO down. For static shots then of course I am at 6400 ISO f4 and 1/250 or so.


Oct 21, 2021 at 03:25 PM
amacal1
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p.1 #5 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


jtford9 wrote:
Second guy was using a couple of off camera remotes but mounted up in the corners above the stands. Personally I can't imagine they were of much use other than pi$$ing off everyone in the stands. I even asked the guy what he thought he was accomplishing with flash units that far from the court?



Does the zoom head of the flash not make a difference here? There's no inherent light loss as it passes through the air, just the diminishing brightness as a finite amount of light spreads to the coverage area visible in the frame. With a far off light, focused with a tight beam on the area of interest (i.e. aimed at the area under a basket), I can imagine that a strobe might still be somewhat useful.



Oct 21, 2021 at 03:44 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #6 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


Maybe. With studio strobe lighting of sports events, there are specific 'long throw' 'sports reflectors' with narrow coverage angle and highly polished surfaces that are very effective in this exact scenario. I'd imagine a typical speedlite flash with zoom head is less efficient, but it would be better than leaving it set to a wider angle.

A benefit of getting the lights far back from the playing area is that the light falloff in the playing area is less severe, resulting in a more even exposure and less of that 'blackhole' background kind of look that can happen if the lights are closer to the action. But with only two lights mounted in a couple corners, effective shooting angles might be limited to working from that sideline. If this was BB, then going under the net will result in very harsh side lighting. There are also the resulting hard shadows that might be unattractive.



Oct 21, 2021 at 04:22 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #7 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


Ming-Tzu wrote:
In the past, I've gotten wonderful advice from this forum on sports photography (e.g. lenses, settings, positioning, NR adjustments, etc.). For the most part, I am happy with my field sports photography (e.g. soccer, baseball, etc.). But my indoor sports pictures are somewhat lacking (imo) because the school's gym isn't that great as far as lighting and my NR skills are lackluster. Currently, I am probably shooting around 20,000 ISO at f2.8 and 500-640 SS. For indoor, I primarily use a 1dx2/5d4 and 24/70 L and 70-200 L.

I was thinking of maybe setting up 1-2 off-camera flashes and see if
...Show more

Thinking about this a bit more, and perhaps before getting into a more complicated setup, determine if bounced on-camera flash might be sufficient for fill light to improve the light quality without having to resort to setting up off-camera strobes. It might be pushing it, but try the speedlite in HSS and use your current ISO 20,000 1/500 @ f/2.8 settings. If the gym has decent LED lighting that is just too dim, it might be close enough color temperature to the flash so they mix without serious color casts.

Bounce flash for it's softer light quality and also so it's not directly in the eyes of the players.

I know you want to get away from ISO 20,000. If it works, try ISO 10,000, or lower. Backgrounds will probably go darker, but at least not black.




Oct 21, 2021 at 04:47 PM
TeamSpeed
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p.1 #8 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


It would be well worth the effort to learn setting up the camera to allow files that can be processed for noise using tools like noiseware and others. The effort there will help your photography beyond indoor sports, and you won't have the headaches of trying to set up flashes that really won't help anyways for indoor sports.


Oct 21, 2021 at 08:44 PM
Ming-Tzu
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p.1 #9 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


Thanks for all the great feedback everybody! I'm going to need to re-think this a bit more. I didn't even consider the liability issue, which is an excellent point. The gym isn't that big at all, especially when you consider the school limiting the amount of people in attendance due to COVID.

At the end of the day, I may just need to suck it up and keep it simple with my current gear.



Oct 21, 2021 at 08:45 PM
Ming-Tzu
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p.1 #10 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


TeamSpeed wrote:
It would be well worth the effort to learn setting up the camera to allow files that can be processed for noise using tools like noiseware and others. The effort there will help your photography beyond indoor sports, and you won't have the headaches of trying to set up flashes that really won't help anyways for indoor sports.


Yeah, I've tried in the past to figure out optimal NR settings. I find it rather difficult but keep on trucking away.



Oct 21, 2021 at 08:46 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #11 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


TeamSpeed wrote:
and you won't have the headaches of trying to set up flashes that really won't help anyways for indoor sports.


In appropriate venues and with a good setup, the results strobes facilitate are excellent. But it's a different way of shooting/working and definitely requires a ton more preparatory work to pull off well.

With current camera technology though, strobing indoor sports is less of a necessity than it used to be. IMO it can still look better than ambient lighting, but you have to want to put in the effort and deal with inevitable hassles, to get those results.

For the OP's reference, here's a discussion about strobe use for NCAA sports. Note the informative posts by Tim Cowie and Walt Middleton.

https://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=43542

Also to clarify, "strobe" refers to a light usually mounted high up, such as on a catwalk. "Flash" refers to on-camera flash use.

And just for some fun reading, a few links describing how Sports Illustrated set up their strobes and remote cameras for the NCAA Final Four. I don't know if they still bother doing this now, given the better camera technology and the fact they no longer have an in-house a photo department...

https://www.sportsshooter.com/news/1565
https://www.sportsshooter.com/news/1566
https://www.sportsshooter.com/news/1567



Oct 21, 2021 at 10:06 PM
TeamSpeed
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p.1 #12 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


Most indoor venues aren't set up with real estate to set up lights and many prohibit it anyways, especially if you are not some large media outlet. Good settings and good noise reduction post processing gets one very far with interior sports. I have written up posts on the past going through the settings and filters to get the results I do. I used to sell Photoshop filters for this as well.

All my inside sports shots are minimally at ISO 6400, and many times at 25600 or more. I also shoot small bursts of 5-8 shots at a time and shoot action all over the court. I have a hard enough time getting agreements to put secondary cameras behind backboards or other areas, so I don't even try to talk strobes or flash. And that was while I was with the Pacers organization, it didn't help as the venues were owned by other parties which had their own liabilities to worry about.

16000 with 5d4 just one of thousands...


25600


Edited on Oct 21, 2021 at 11:39 PM · View previous versions



Oct 21, 2021 at 10:22 PM
adamx12m
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p.1 #13 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


Two other ideas have you run your photos through dxo pureraw for PP? Second, talk to school AD or administration about improving the lights. I've seen some HS with new LED lights where your shooting at 1600, crazy bright. It's long shot but someone has to be told.


Oct 21, 2021 at 11:19 PM
TeamSpeed
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p.1 #14 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


Ming-Tzu if you have a raw file that you can share via a PM with a link to we.transfer or whatever, I can take that raw, run it through my steps and then share with you what I did, provided you like the results. This could give you a starting recipe in post processing noise.

I actually find night-time football games almost as difficult as indoor sports, sometimes worse depending on the school stadium "age" and "upgrade/lack of".

ISO 32000 on the 5D4 (I rarely have to shoot at this ISO indoors)... There is a fair amount of lost detail, despite my experience and techniques here, the 5D4 32000 images are very tough to manage. You can still make out noise everywhere, in the legs/shadows, background, etc, despite being able to make out some of the text on the helmet label. This is only good for a media coverage article, etc, and not for a print or anything.




Oct 22, 2021 at 07:42 AM
jedibrain
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p.1 #15 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


TeamSpeed wrote:
Ming-Tzu if you have a raw file that you can share via a PM with a link to we.transfer or whatever, I can take that raw, run it through my steps and then share with you what I did, provided you like the results. This could give you a starting recipe in post processing noise.

I actually find night-time football games almost as difficult as indoor sports, sometimes worse depending on the school stadium "age" and "upgrade/lack of".

ISO 32000 on the 5D4 (I rarely have to shoot at this ISO indoors)... There is a fair amount of lost detail,
...Show more

Do you have any links to posts or articles you mention having written on this topic? I'd be interested to know as well. I shoot a lot of my daughters soccer games, outdoors, late afternoons on unlit fields. Usually ISO 12800-25600 under those conditions.

Brian



Oct 22, 2021 at 08:42 AM
Robin Smith
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p.1 #16 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


if bounced on-camera flash As if that would make any difference!

As TeamSpeed says, there is no room for all the stuff you would need. It is just crazy to even consider it. Things I am sure are different in the NBA, in HS absolutely not. The best thing that gyms could do is simply to put in more powerful regular lighting, perhaps you could suggest it? (Irony alert). No, you just have to shoot at the ISO required, period. If it gets really dark you can try a faster lens. I sometimes use the 135 f2, that gives me an extra stop, and an 85.1.8 or 1.4 can be used at a pinch too, but most of the time its the good old 70-200mm f2.8.



Oct 22, 2021 at 09:17 AM
TeamSpeed
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p.1 #17 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


jedibrain wrote:
Do you have any links to posts or articles you mention having written on this topic? I'd be interested to know as well. I shoot a lot of my daughters soccer games, outdoors, late afternoons on unlit fields. Usually ISO 12800-25600 under those conditions.

Brian


What gear are you using to see if I have written something up on that? I know of two instances over on POTN where I outline getting the most from the 7D2 and 5D4, but I know I did a couple of other bodies too.



Oct 22, 2021 at 09:54 AM
Ming-Tzu
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p.1 #18 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


TeamSpeed wrote:
What gear are you using to see if I have written something up on that? I know of two instances over on POTN where I outline getting the most from the 7D2 and 5D4, but I know I did a couple of other bodies too.


I'll send you an image soon through PM. Just gotta find an appropriate one. I would also love to read more from you on this topic. I use LR mostly but can work with PS if needed.

One question I had around NR was that it seems it's done on an image-by-image basis. What happens if I have 50-100 images that need NR? Do I need to do it for each image individually or can I batch process as long as the settings are the same?



Oct 22, 2021 at 10:05 AM
TeamSpeed
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p.1 #19 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


Ming-Tzu wrote:
I'll send you an image soon through PM. Just gotta find an appropriate one. I would also love to read more from you on this topic. I use LR mostly but can work with PS if needed.

One question I had around NR was that it seems it's done on an image-by-image basis. What happens if I have 50-100 images that need NR? Do I need to do it for each image individually or can I batch process as long as the settings are the same?


I don't agree that this has to be an image by image process. I created 3 different levels of NR actions for every body I have owned (7D, 1D4, 1D3, 5D3, 5D4) and based on the ISO levels for a given event and the camera used, I would run an action in bulk on all files, then I would post process each individually for composition, culling, etc. I don't do NR in that final round manually, it would have all been done for me. I use Noiseware plugins as my base NR, but there are some tricks with Photoshop filters that help massage the file for better NR and detail capture.

I also though run all raw files through DPP and set up some parameters there too that are applied as part of the JPG conversion, (which then feeds my PS actions), where NR sliders are brought down a bit, sharpness sliders are turned down a bit, and WB is corrected on all raws. That is part of my process for some of those bodies. The 5D4 doesn't require that level though, it is so good already with its in-camera JPG.

So bulk correction in Raw in DPP -> JPGs run in bulk through PHotoshop using the appropriate custom action -> manual final review/correction/composition cropping (my basic recipe for each event). For pro sports, I will usually come home with 300-500 images, it takes my laptop about 1-2 hours to run the DPP bulk and then PS bulk, then when its done, I go through the end results. For the 5D4, I skip the DPP part of this process.

I cannot find where I did a 5D4 overview, but here is one where I wrote up the steps for the 7D2. The 5D4 was a game changer for me, it was where I had to stop doing all this work with raw and color channel corrections in the JPG, and my time was easily cut in half once I moved to that camera for sports.



Oct 22, 2021 at 10:22 AM
jedibrain
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p.1 #20 · Indoor Sports (HS and below) ---> Flash Photography Distracting?


TeamSpeed wrote:
What gear are you using to see if I have written something up on that? I know of two instances over on POTN where I outline getting the most from the 7D2 and 5D4, but I know I did a couple of other bodies too.


I'm using an R6. I also have a 5D3. Mostly 100-400 vII for sports. Even if the body doesn't match exactly, I'd be curious to learn the steps.

Brian



Oct 22, 2021 at 10:35 AM
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