I sold my D850 for a second D500. I mainly do wildlife/BIF but do some street and macro. For me, the D500 is superior to the D850 for BIF. The D850 needs the grip to get 2fps more (9FPS) and to get the most out of the AF performance (it then is very close to the D500).
D850 is 45.7MP and the D500 is 20.9. If you are not at least half filling the frame to full filling it on the D850, there is ZERO benefit to the D850 over the D500. In fact, the D500 has a higher pixel density and if you shot the D850 in DX mode, you will be about 1.5MP less than the D500 (19.5MP to 20.9). I was able to notice the slight difference on my 4k monitors and prints, though very slight, but not on a 1080p monitor.
the D850 FF sensor has about a 1 stop ISO advantage over the D500 at full image size. For example, the amount of noise on the D500 at ISO3200 is the same amount at roughly ISO6400 on the D850. BUT if you crop down to the D500 size (FOV) you lose that stop of ISO advantage. So if you will be cropping the images on the D500, you will be cropping the hell out of the D850 and it's not likely worth it.
So really, The D850 is superior when you fill the frame or mostly filling it, to get all those extra MP's one the subject. If you are cropping heavily, you will see no benefit of IQ and maybe a smidge less then the D500. If you aren't doing any landscaping or Portrait or Macro, then the D500 is the obvious choice. So the D850 generally won't do any worse really than the D500 for BIF, maybe lag behind 5-10% and can be much better if your friend will be doing macro or portrait and landscape shots, those higher megapixels will be sexy.
I didn't do enough of the other to justify keeping the D850 so I sold mine and got another used D500 with low shutter count for a great price and pocketed $1800 in the process.
Having used the D500 and the D850 for birds in flight, as well as the D5 camera, the autofocus performance is identical between the D500 and the D850 with the D5 being better in situations where the bird is rapidly flying directly toward the camera.
The battery grip allows use of the EN-EL18 batteries and I can go for 2-3 days on a trip without changing the battery and this is great. I get 9 fps and that is good enough.
The D850 in DX mode produces a 19.47 MP image and so having 20.9 MP from the D500 is not insignificant with a 6% reduction. What does matter is having room around a subject in the frame so I go not cut off part of a wing and I can later crop the image for the best placement of the subject within the frame.
After a trip to Costa Rica with the D500 and D850 I realized that if there was a problem with the FX D850 that I did not have a true backup with the DX D500. As a result I sold the D500 and bought a second D850 camera along with a second battery grip.
Where the different between a DX camera and the D850 is quite apparent is when using a zoom telephoto lens like the 200-500mm one. On the D500 it provides the view angle of a 300mm lens and that causes problems with many subjects where I want the whole animal in the frame and when I want to show the subject in its surroundings and not end up with an ID shot.
A DX camera does not change the actual amount of image magnification with a given focal length lens and so there is no real gain in this regard as compared to shooting with a FX camera. I can crop a D850 image to provide the same field of view as the D500 and nearly the same resolution should I chose to do so and I can make this choice before or after taking the shots.
The D500 is an excellent camera and a lot of bang for the buck. But the D850 is a better and more versatile camera overall.
The D500 had no issues tracking and mailing focus on BIF flying directly at me. Rarely ever missing. My D850 would have significantly more misses without the grip and was very close to my D500 when using the grip. The grip does increase the AF performance. That grip is everything to the D850 for fast action/bif, including the extra 2fps
A Costa Rica trip, you will be on top of a lot of your subjects being in a jungle/heavy forest environment, making it much easier to fill the frame, the D850 would certainly be the option in that situation. On a more normal outing, most find they always can use more reach for wildlife and BIF.
I asked this question recently and the take away is:
If you can carry 2 bodies, keep D500 and add D780. D500 is hell of body with identical IQ to D850 for birding.
D780 has many pluses but mostly its a great low light camera and lets you exploit the full potential of a bigger sensor. You also get a Z6 free with this camera as the live view system is a replica of Z6, a welcome first for a DSLR. My favourite feature is extended shutter speeds as slow as 15 minutes. Its perhaps the best video camera available.
I feel F system is marred by the lenses. There are few superlative and unique lenses but mostly the lenses are older generation and worse than Z and FE mount. Especially the consumer grade lenses.
D500 (DX) lens system is surprisingly good at lower end of the pyramid. DX 10-20, 18-55, 70-300 are all formidable lenses even if they are cheap. I compared Sony 70-350 G with the 70-300 DX and FX versions and the DX lens is as good or better than that.
Can’t say the same for FX consumer lenses. For example i was looking for a FX prime set for my D780 and realised that every lens has multiple and much better alternatives at Sony (which i also use).
I have both the D500 and D850, and use the 500PF, mainly for bird photography. Many birders prefer then D500 for its faster frame rate and quieter shutter, as well as price. I am very happy with both but prefer the D850. Firstly, the FF sensor with the prime is like having a 333-500mm zoom on the D500 after cropping and I find it is easier to locate and track birds. Secondly, my D500 burns through batteries and I get much better battery life on the D850, though others are luckier with the battery life of the D500. I am sure you would be happy with either - I would not be at all upset if I grabbed the "wrong" one on going out.
I spent a week using a 80-400mm and 500mm PF with the D500, D5, and D850 cameras to photograph birds in flight. I was photographing osprey and terns for the most part with a few gulls and brown pelicans.
There was an osprey nest at a lagoon and one bird would be on the nest and the other was out hunting. When switching focus from the bird on the nest to the approaching osprey the D500 were 50% effective in locking focus on the osprey in flight. The D5 was 100% effective in the exact same situation with the same lenses.
This is not surprising as an approaching subject is the most demanding situation for any camera's autofocus system. When the Canon 1d Mark III was introduced it was found that with a runner approaching the camera the autofocus was not up to the task. Even after multiple firmware updates the problem was still apparent. Canon changed out the AF system with the 1d Mark IV which then introduced new problems that made the situation far worse.
The D850 and D5 and D500 share the same Multi-CAM 20K AF system so there is no objective reason for them to perform differently. The D5 does have a different drive motor and gets more power from the EN-EL18 battery pack and is able to drive lens focus motors much faster than can that used in the D500 and D850. I delayed getting the D5 though as I am very seldom photographing birds coming directly at the camera and I was not willing to give up the resolution provided by the D850 or D500 cameras. With any amount of cropping the D5 adn D6 are effectively 9MP cameras.
One are where the D500 with the new aufotocus system and dedicated AF processor greatly surpassed that of prior cameras was with Group AF. The D750 has Group AF but it was worthless for BIF. The D500 though showed how well this could actually work and even with fast moving hummers I was getting infocus shots 99% of the time.
The D780 may be better than the D750 in terms of autofocus but it shares the Multi-CAM 3500 II AF and so is not a substitute for the D500/D5/D850 cameras for action shooting. The D780 is a great choice for shooting video as the Nikon enhancements over the D750 clearly targets this market.
The D500 is, and will always be, a crop factor camera. Nothing else.
The D850 can be used as both a crop and FF. Better AF (with or without grip), better noise performance, better dynamic range, better OVF etc. Grip; oh yes, love to use it with big lenses.
rrwingnut wrote:
Not counting the 10fps and the crop factor of the D500, how do they compare for birding? Have a friend looking at them.
I'm going to first copy stuff I wrote in a recent thread:
The D850 is like a 2 in 1 camera. It has a D500 built in for the most part but there are some caveats. There are also a few benefits of a D850 even if you are cropping in to D500 or greater.
Caveats:
1) 9FPS maximum and you need to buy a grip, big battery, big battery charger and end cap. That is a big cost if buying Nikon, you can make it a lot less expensive buying all 3rd party. If you don't like running a grip or don't want that extra cost then 7FPS vs 10FPS is a significant difference.
2) D500 has slightly more MPs and slightly more DR and slightly better noise at the pixel level vs the D850. It is very slight...like under 1/3 stop but it is a fact.
3) D850 shutter is one of the loudest and most annoying shutters I've ever owned. It was a big motivator in me finally selling the D850 and only keeping the D500. YMMV.
4) I think the AF was very similar but I always felt the D500 had just a little more snap to it. But for 99% of subjects it is a wash.
Advantages of the D850 even when using it like a D500:
1) If you are shooting action, like BIF, you have the larger FOV to cover mistakes in your panning technique...basically some more buffer room to catch the bird on the sensor if it moves fast.
2) If you use a 1.4TC on the 500PF and are stuck with limited AF points in the center of the frame, you can still place that AF point on the eye of the subject even if the eye would fall well out of centre in your ideal composition. You basically use the extra FOV to make a composition and then crop in after the fact. With a D500 shooting same subject with same lens you would have to resort to focus/recompose. This applies mainly when a subject is close to filling the DX frame FOV.
Now I'd like to give my opinion on some of the points already brought up in this thread:
1) I could find no difference between a gripped D850 with EN-EL18 and an ungripped D850 for AF
2) I might give the slightest edge to the D500 over D850 for AF but it is very slight, not obvious, something you just get the general impression of after many 10,000 frames. If anything I just found the D500 may be a little quicker on the uptake when quickly reacting to a small, fast BIF.
I never got to shoot the D5 at challenging subjects (only on perched birds and some hovering hummers)...I believe those that say it is a noticeable improvement especially for oncoming subjects. I've also read from reliable shooters that it preforms better for f/8 lens/tc combos like 500PF/1.4TC when it comes to BIF.
If I'm shooting the D500 and the subject is filling most of the frame, I can’t put as many pixels on the subject as I can with my D850. We are all different and 20 mpx just does not excite me. I do admit that most of the time I have to crop down to 20 and less anyway. But if that loon is close, I have a chance at capturing a perfect image of say.... 6000 to 8000 pixels on the long side. I like that.
Second, there are signifiicant inaccuracies (in certain lights) in the D500’s white balance were improved with the D850. I have Daltonism and I find myself shying away from my D500, whereas the D850 color is *usually* accurate. To be fair, with either camera, despite the Daltonism, I've learned how to correct unnatural color temperature when converting in post. To my brain (imo), D850 files are superior to D500 files.
When I do shoot the D500 I am pleasantly surprised at how quiet it is compared to the D850.
arbitrage wrote:
1) I could find no difference between a gripped D850 with EN-EL18 and an ungripped D850 for AF
The difference is in the speed with which the mirror moves, so if you set the camera for 7 fps there is more time between frames where the viewfinder is showing the subject and longer time between frames for AF to work as well. However, if you compare AF performance during 7 fps operation using the EN-EL15 battery and 9 fps with EN-EL18 then it's hard to make a comparison since the number of frames per time is different. In my opinion, only one factor should be changed at a time, if a comparison is to be meaningful. In this case the battery can be changed and the observation is higher pitch sound and shorter blackout time. Comparing AF keeper percentages is very complicated without a standardized setup.
If you find the gripless D850 sound offensive then the gripped and EN-EL18 powered D850 is unlikely to be more pleasing due to the higher pitch. Personally I find the D850 sound with its normal battery to be OK; D810 was more pleasing but either is okay for me. D5 is high-pitched and loud, whereas the D6 has lower pitch and is more gentle in terms of its sound than the D5 though the sound intensity is about the same. None of these cameras are exactly quiet if compared with most mirrorless cameras.
I never got to shoot the D5 at challenging subjects (only on perched birds and some hovering hummers)...I believe those that say it is a noticeable improvement especially for oncoming subjects. I've also read from reliable shooters that it preforms better for f/8 lens/tc combos like 500PF/1.4TC when it comes to BIF.
For perched birds and any kind of relatively stationary subjects, the D6, D850, or D780 would be better than the D5 because the D6/D850/D780 offer EFCS in viewfinder photography (in Q and Qc modes), which in my experience dramatically improves sharpness in situations where intermediate shutter speeds (e.g. 1/200s, 1/400s) can be used. Even with the D6's 20 MP, I find the difference shocking in favour of EFCS even with moderate focal length lenses such as the 300 mm f/2.8 and longer ones such as the 500mm f/5.6 PF. What I find bothersome about the D850 is the prolific moire produced with the 500 PF due to its high MTF exceeding the sensor's resolution. This is very evident in shots of perched birds. The lower-resolution models have AA filters that alleviate the problem, but of course they aren't as crisp. EFCS makes a big difference though, and I suspect a lot of the slack that these cameras get for supposedly the AA filter decreasing sharpness could actually be due to the shutter vibration. Qc in the D6 can work up to 5 fps and provides a clear advantage when operating in lower light where there isn't a chance to use very short exposure times.
elkhornsun wrote:
The D850 and D5 and D500 share the same Multi-CAM 20K AF system so there is no objective reason for them to perform differently. The D5 does have a different drive motor and gets more power from the EN-EL18 battery pack and is able to drive lens focus motors much faster than can that used in the D500 and D850.
The D5 and D6 indeed drive screwdriver lenses faster than the D850 (as did the D3 compared to D700) but the mirror also moves faster which gives the viewfinder AF system more time to evaluate the subject and focus between frames; in the latest D6, the blackout is very short. This also helps in composing and keeping a moving subject in the frame and under the selected focus point or area as you get more viewing time. Consistent AF performance depends on the focus area being held on the subject across the sequence.
So we have at least three factors that are different even if the modules are the same or similar (Nikon usually designate the DX versions with different parts codes so it may be that they are actually not the same):
For at least some screwdriver AF lenses like the 200 AF Micro, the difference at which speed the motor runs the lens focusing is evident even by watching the focus scale move.
The other factor is the faster mirror movement, giving the AF more time between frames to do its thing, and helping the user follow the subject and keep the focus point on the subject.
Finally, it's possible that the firmware is somewhat different in each camera.
My experience is that with approaching subjects, even AF-S Nikkors such as the 105/1.4 and 200/2 focus much more consistently on the D5 than the D850. I don't shoot moving subjects with fast primes on the D850 for this reason. For stationary subjects, the D850 AF's these lenses excellently. It feels a bit "underpowered" when working on approaching subjects with these lenses. Using the 70-200/2.8 FL, however, it can easily handle approaching subjects, so the performance is very much dependent on the specific lens and body combination.
I sold my D500 when I got my D850. I think my skill is the limiting factor rather than the camera. If I could not get bif shot with D850, 99.9% of the time, I could not get it with D500 either.
Even when I cannot fill the bird in a FF sensor, I still prefer the flexibility to how I crop the picture in post processing rather than trying to nail the frame perfectly on a DX sensor on the fly and when I can get close enough to fill a FF sensor frame with a bird, D500 is not going to give me the kind of IQ I can get with D850 then.
I've used both the D500 and D850 extensively. When it comes to AF, they basically perform the same. Anecdotally, the D500's AF seemed a touch more responsive, but I don't think I've ever missed a BIF sequence due to that microscopic difference. If I only photographed birds, I'd prefer the D500 over the D850 because of the DX field of view and the fact that the D500 is lighter and shoots 1FPS faster without a grip. I never noticed battery issued with the D500. Like all my Nikons, I'm sure I was able to shoot 2000+ frames before recharging.
