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Archive 2021 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?

  
 
chambeshi
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p.4 #1 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


Fiscal facts dictate the greater majority of owners will persist with their expensive systems built up over a decade and longer. This applies especially to Nikon owners of telephotos of the G and E vintage (i.e. current models). Any perceived/reported Performance issues of the FTZ with Z cameras is the least of our concerns, especially with the current Nikkor telephotos.
Perhaps it is different for the genuine beginner, but many in this Nikon forum are heavily invested in their Nikon gear, and cannot afford many, if indeed any, new lenses.

https://photographylife.com/buy-a-camera

Grasshoppers are free to leap, even though the existing systems work rather well
https://bythom.com/newsviews/the-natives-are-restless.html






Apr 16, 2021 at 04:09 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.4 #2 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


chambeshi wrote:
Fiscal facts dictate the greater majority of owners will persist with their expensive systems built up over a decade and longer. This applies especially to Nikon owners of telephotos of the G and E vintage (i.e. current models). Any perceived/reported Performance issues of the FTZ with Z cameras is the least of our concerns, especially with the current Nikkor telephotos.
Perhaps it is different for the genuine beginner, but many in this Nikon forum are heavily invested in their Nikon gear, and cannot afford many, if indeed any, new lenses.

https://photographylife.com/buy-a-camera

Grasshoppers are free to leap, even though the existing systems
...Show more

I think what is also missed is the G and E lenses provide Nikon shooters with some compelling intermediary cost lenses that simply aren't available for some other systems (e.g., Sony and L mount). Sony for example has some areas of their lens lineup where your choice is between ultra expensive and excellent lenses or relatively low priced zooms with nothing in between. This sort of very expensive prime vs. quite low priced zoom is most obvious for their long lenses. The have $12,000 excellent primes or they have relatively low cost zooms ($2,000 or so), but exactly zero prime lenses longer than 135mm that are less than $10,000. In contrast, if you shoot Nikon either DSLRs or mirrorless there are 7 excellent primes longer than 135mm that can be had on the used market for less than $5,000 (Nikon G 200 f/2 VR II, Nikon G 300 f/2.8 VR II, Nikon E 300 f/4 PF, Nikon G 400 f/2.8 VR II, Nikon G 500 f/4 VR, Nikon E 500 f/5.6 PF, and Nikon 600 f/4 VR) all of these lenses offer compelling performance on Nikon cameras (both mirrorless and DSLRs), and with a brand like Sony or an L mount camera there just isn't anything like these lenses available and there isn't likely to be any such lenses available in the next 5 years anywhere near the price of these lenses.

It isn't just the long lenses where Nikon has this advantage of relatively inexpensive lenses for what they are values. There is a whole slew of really good Nikon G lenses that exist at a price that simply isn't available for newer systems that have only mirrorless designed lenses. For example Sony has a relatively expensive 24 f/1.4 GM that sells used for around $1,100 used and a new 24 f/2.8 G lens that sells for $600--nothing in between. Nikon has a fast G lens (i.e., 24 f/1.4 G) that sells for around $700. Similarly Sony has an expensive 35 f/1.4 GM that sells for $1,400 and an inexpensive 35 f/1.8 that sells for about $350--again nothing in between. Nikon has a fast G lens (i.e., 35 f/1.4 G) that sells for about $900. The same story at 85mm--Sony has an expensive 85 f/1.4 GM. that sells for about $1,400 used, and an inexpensive 85 f/1.8 that goes for about $425--nothing in between. In contrast Nikon has an 85 f/1.4 G that sells for about $900. If you add to these the 58 f/1.4 G which sells for about $900 and the 28 f/1.4 E that sells for about $1,100 that don't have equivalents on other systems, Nikon has a very compelling set of fast and relatively inexpensive primes at shorter focal lengths. Sure some of the newer designs that cost a lot more may well be better and in some cases smaller, but the options for Nikon are still compelling, IMO, and especially so if you are on a budget.

Suffice it to say that DSLR lenses on Nikon Z cameras are in my view an under appreciated and important part of what the Z system offers. They may not be at the cutting edge of performance, but they still perform very well and provide an excellent value proposition for people who want to use the Z cameras, but also for people who want to continue to use DSLRs.



Apr 16, 2021 at 10:55 PM
stevenvh
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p.4 #3 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


Steve Spencer wrote:
I think what is also missed is the G and E lenses provide Nikon shooters with some compelling intermediary cost lenses that simply aren't available for some other systems (e.g., Sony and L mount). Sony for example has some areas of their lens lineup where your choice is between ultra expensive and excellent lenses or relatively low priced zooms with nothing in between. This sort of very expensive prime vs. quite low priced zoom is most obvious for their long lenses. The have $12,000 excellent primes or they have relatively low cost zooms ($2,000 or so), but exactly zero
...Show more

This is the rational that helped me to decide recently to return to Nikon DSLR after 1 1/2 years with Sony mirrorless. That and I still had a dozen Nikon AF and MF lenses. Adding up what it would cost to fill out my Sony kit compared to Nikon DSLR was ultimately the deciding factor.
After selling my A7III and Batis lenses I was able to buy used D780, 24, 35 & 58 1.4g lenses, also picked up a used D750 and mint 180 2.8D at great prices.
And, I had APS refurb a mint 35-70 2.8D and my excellent 85 1.4D. So at this point I just need a 70-200 to have a really nice working kit at a much lower cost than something similar on Sony.
To me Nikon DSLR just feels right in my hands too. Even after over a year I was still trying to mount Sony lenses in the Nikon direction and always reaching for buttons that weren't there. I much prefer the D780 over the A7III in general and couldn't be happier with my decision.

cheers



Apr 17, 2021 at 12:00 AM
nicolachel
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p.4 #4 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


It isn't a bad idea for Nikon to stay around the DSLR side and see what happens. IIRC F6 was announced after D2X which is a few generations or sub-gens into DSLRs already (there were a few bodies like D1X D1H D2H in between D2X and D1, sort of similar to today's landscape of Z6 and Z7, albeit launched in a staggered fashion) so even D7 is possible after Z9II.

OTOH: Competing head to head in a hot market with one of the biggest electronics powerhouse (that doesn't view its camera business as a reportable sector, aka revenue and income from it isn't exactly a rounding error but not too far from that either) or the incumbent ILC market leader that at least has its own sensor fabs and is fighting super aggressively (see R5, and note that R3 isn't R1) isn't a shortcut to loads of profits.

Nikon will have to sink a lot of $ (and obviously reporting that they are losing a lot of $ in the process, possibly making investors nervous, rightfully so due to the inherent risks in such maneuvers) in order to drive one of the others out, or at least capture significant amount of the market, before they can dream about profit. Z9 and Nikon's subsequent bodies might be "much better" than A1, R3, etc, in which case the others can and likely will compete on pricing and eat into everyone's margin and profits. Z9, etc might also be similar to A1 and R3, etc and don't move the needles much. Regardless of how things might play out in the short to mid term, there's no quick win here.

Counting on F mount users converting is far from fool proof. Maybe some vendor locked pros that are hit hard by the virus and its effect on the business will have to begrudgingly bite. But will the avg Joe with an "investment" of a sole AF-S 24-120 be that passionate about shelling out another $250 to continue to use the lens (just a tad bit longer, heavier and more wobbly, but still guaranteed "native")? What about someone in between (not vendor locked, but have a few more F mount lenses) who aren't too happy about Nikon's 'abandoning of mount' and recent moves on warranty and such and thus aren't too excited to continue to be loyal to the "disloyal"?

A shirking market (DSLR) that doesn't attract powerful and deep-pocketed competitors but is still profitable could be a suitable route for Nikon. Yes, it is a "dead end", but it might be the longer "dead end" in terms of the camera business. Nikon also has other imaging related businesses from medical to rifle scopes, thus this isn't a dead end for the corporation and the 100 year optics brand.



Apr 28, 2021 at 02:22 AM
aut0maticdan
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p.4 #5 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


I think the D6, D850 and D500 (MAYBE the D780) basically become like the F6, F100 and N80. Nikon will continue to sell them for a decade or so but migrate their resources to producing glass and bodies for the new Z system. I don't expect any more effort to be spent on consumer models of FX or DX DSLR, however they may offer those bodies as long as they continue to sell.

There is a greater than 0 chance that a random or special edition DSLR or F-mount mirrorless model shakes out a la FM3a (Df2?!?) which fully supports legacy glass back to the dawn of time. It would be expensive and rare.



Apr 28, 2021 at 03:28 PM
jwolfe
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p.4 #6 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


Nikon already re-aligned its plants, which was generating a lot of the losses. And they’ve been making changes to the overall structure. They don’t need to be Canon to be profitable. Cameras are becoming luxury items for those that can afford them. Think Leica.

nicolachel wrote:
It isn't a bad idea for Nikon to stay around the DSLR side and see what happens. IIRC F6 was announced after D2X which is a few generations or sub-gens into DSLRs already (there were a few bodies like D1X D1H D2H in between D2X and D1, sort of similar to today's landscape of Z6 and Z7, albeit launched in a staggered fashion) so even D7 is possible after Z9II.

OTOH: Competing head to head in a hot market with one of the biggest electronics powerhouse (that doesn't view its camera business as a reportable sector, aka revenue and income from
...Show more



Apr 29, 2021 at 08:37 PM
chambeshi
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p.4 #7 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


Your post underlines the primary reality for most photographers. What really matters is the lenses, which has always been the case. A diversity of options determines the potential to grow into a system (and at one's own pace). Affordability is as important, if not brutally real, for the vast majority of us.

This reality applies especially to mirrorless systems, which are all in different stages of immaturity of lens line ups, and with unprecedented turnover of camera technology.

Steve Spencer wrote:
I think what is also missed is the G and E lenses provide Nikon shooters with some compelling intermediary cost lenses that simply aren't available for some other systems (e.g., Sony and L mount). Sony for example has some areas of their lens lineup where your choice is between ultra expensive and excellent lenses or relatively low priced zooms with nothing in between. This sort of very expensive prime vs. quite low priced zoom is most obvious for their long lenses. The have $12,000 excellent primes or they have relatively low cost zooms ($2,000 or so), but exactly zero
...Show more




Apr 30, 2021 at 05:14 AM
MRM4
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p.4 #8 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


If you read Nikon Rumors, nearly every post is about mirrorless cameras and lenses. I thought they were just obsessed with them. But after reading the comments here, I guess that's the trend. Maybe I'll buy another DSLR or two to hold back when my current ones give out.


Apr 30, 2021 at 08:44 AM
1bwana1
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p.4 #9 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


MRM4 wrote:
If you read Nikon Rumors, nearly every post is about mirrorless cameras and lenses. I thought they were just obsessed with them. But after reading the comments here, I guess that's the trend. Maybe I'll buy another DSLR or two to hold back when my current ones give out.


There will be DSLRs for your Grandchildren to buy when the time comes. No need to stock pile.



Apr 30, 2021 at 09:04 AM
carlitos
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p.4 #10 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


Do you think, or, more importantly, does Nikon think that pro's will buy DSLR's for sports, newss, etc.?
A new Nikon DSLR might be more pro-sumer than pro. I don't think it takes a lot of R&D expense to drop a new sensor into the D850. Nikon may be affected by chip shortages like everyone else. They put their chips in (or on) the mirrorless line for now.



Apr 30, 2021 at 01:32 PM
AmbientMike
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p.4 #11 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


Do the D500 and D850 need an upgrade? Ever?

Yeah I think Nikon is going to upgrade the D850, maybe D500 too. Already at a high level though

I'm a Canon shooter but if Canon really abandoned DSLR's I'd probably look at Nikon. Idk if I'm going mirrorless or not. Maybe.



Apr 30, 2021 at 07:36 PM
jwolfe
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p.4 #12 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


I think Nikon has said they will continue both. They make a lot of money on the D850. The D6 will probably be the last of the series. But they sold the F6 until what a couple of years ago? And film is more popular than ever. Fuji is sold out till June. DSLRs aren’t going anywhere.

AmbientMike wrote:
Do the D500 and D850 need an upgrade? Ever?

Yeah I think Nikon is going to upgrade the D850, maybe D500 too. Already at a high level though

I'm a Canon shooter but if Canon really abandoned DSLR's I'd probably look at Nikon. Idk if I'm going mirrorless or not. Maybe.




May 02, 2021 at 11:54 AM
zoetmb2
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p.4 #13 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


>>>employ millions of Yen in marketing

Absolute nonsense. Nikon is spending almost nothing in marketing these days (at least not in the U.S.)




May 02, 2021 at 09:16 PM
mawz
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p.4 #14 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


zoetmb2 wrote:
>>>employ millions of Yen in marketing

Absolute nonsense. Nikon is spending almost nothing in marketing these days (at least not in the U.S.)



They're spending.

Nobody's noticing, because Nikon's marketing team is so utterly incompetent it's actually funny and they don't market anywhere useful.

They're up with Doodly in terms of effective targeting (and Doodly are the idiots marketing a 'camera-free video' service targeting camera channels on Youtube, you know targeting people who are interested in cameras with a service that is supposed to eliminate the need for cameras)



May 03, 2021 at 07:25 AM
bs kite
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p.4 #15 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


you know?,,,,,,, I think you're right


May 03, 2021 at 07:20 PM
nicolachel
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p.4 #16 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


Let me try to clarify a few points:

1. Luxury is something that most people can't afford, rather something that most people find irrelevant. Not many car buyers are in the market for a 918 spyder, just like not many are in the market for a 1980s vintage civic with over 300,000 miles on the ODO meter. But this similarity with the 918 spyder doesn't make the civic a 'luxury car'.

2. Cameras are becoming a niche that most people find irrelevant rather than in-affordable. Most consider smartphone the proper camera nowadays, the number of people who think this way will likely increase with time causing the camera market to continue to shrink.

3. Nikon's biggest problem is that people aren't buying their new stuff, not that they incurred a "one time" cost to layoff people, retreat from various markets, shutdown factories and reduce employee benefits.

4. Nikon's secondary problem is that it is short on cash while its biggest opponents that currently command better market shares aren't. Rumors have that Sony agreed to give their employees a bigger bonus than what was negotiated for by the 'laborer's union' this year. Think about this for a moment, it's like you asked your boss "could I have a $n K bonus pretty please", and his/her answer being "that's too little, how about 20% more than what you asked for?". Compare this to Nikon's benefit reduction and laying offs? Canon is doing fabulously as well, given the virus situation and all.

5. It isn't very wise for Nikon to incur more losses by competing head to head against better equipped opponents that have a lot more $$$ on hand at this point. Alternative strategies such as focusing only on DSLR, or even DSLR and consumer APS mirror-less (Like Fuji, who is doing pretty well going this route) could end up better for them.


Just as not selling like a hot cake doesn't make a beater civic a luxury car, piling inventory with little customer interest also doesn't make a Nikon a Leica.


jwolfe wrote:
Nikon already re-aligned its plants, which was generating a lot of the losses. And they’ve been making changes to the overall structure. They don’t need to be Canon to be profitable. Cameras are becoming luxury items for those that can afford them. Think Leica.






May 04, 2021 at 02:51 AM
chambeshi
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p.4 #17 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


Nikon has no shortage of cash, apparently. Proportional expenditure into R&D also remains high. Priorities have shifted and are being implemented

https://bythom.com/newsviews/nikons-last-annual-report.html



May 04, 2021 at 03:19 AM
ilkka_nissila
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p.4 #18 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


It does seem that Nikon aren't marketing all that much, but their ads do show up on my instagram (because I followed one of their ambassadors) and some of their stores do market Nikon products to me because I'm their customer. I can find the information I need online, and pretty much everyone I know does the same. Since consumers no longer buy cameras the strategy has to be different and more focused than marketing in a major newspaper or magazine.


May 04, 2021 at 04:12 AM
nicolachel
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p.4 #19 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


chambeshi wrote:
Nikon has no shortage of cash, apparently. Proportional expenditure into R&D also remains high. Priorities have shifted and are being implemented

https://bythom.com/newsviews/nikons-last-annual-report.html


Thom wrote many interesting pieces on Nikon 15 years ago and as a long term user of Nikon, I've been an avid reader of his back then.

But in order to "report" on a much wider field (covering all mirror-less cameras and SLRs on multiple different sites), he seems too busy to pay much attention to Nikon nowadays.

If you didn't notice, he wrote the piece you linked on 4/30/2021, and seems to blame Nikon for "releasing annual report months later than usual" and "failed to notify him".

Well, the truth is, that annual report was released in May of 2020 (yes, almost a year ago) and due notices were sent to share holders and interested parties.

As you can easily guess from the above, Nikon's new report for CY 2020 (FY is from 2020/3 - 2021/3) will be released this May, in fact, it will be out in less than 10 days from now. That is when Nikon itself will inform all of its holders and other interesting parties that the cash flow for this past FY was a big negative number (a few hundred million, in USD).

Of course, Nikon has other assets and isn't in immediate danger of going out of business. But I wouldn't call such a big negative cash flow in a year without huge capex "no shortage of cash, apparently". It seems that Nikon themselves are in agreement with my view and proved it via their recent actions, you simply don't randomly close factories, retreat from markets, and layoff Japanese workers when you "have no shortage of cash". Not to mention all sorts of other obvious corner cuttings around the globe.

Now back to Thom, if he is so busy that he only bothers to talk about what Nikon released last year a few days before Nikon is set to release another report for this year, and tries to blame Nikon for causing the delay, I wonder how much attention he paid to the actual content of the report, or how much attention we should be paying to what he has to say







May 04, 2021 at 05:51 AM
jwolfe
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p.4 #20 · Will Nikon build anymore DSLR's, or are they done with DSLR's?


Nikon is not short on cash. They are right-sizing their business so their costs match anticipated future sales volume. They know they’re about 20% of the global market share. And they know they will be releasing 2-3 new mirrorless bodies and 5-8 new lenses a year. Nikon isn’t going anywhere. Maybe a few years down the road they sell themselves, which would actually be a good thing if they end up with a good Japanese owner. Olympus has had new owners barely six months and they’re about to announce a major partnership with Samsung. And Nikon has way more brand value than Olympus.

nicolachel wrote:
Thom wrote many interesting pieces on Nikon 15 years ago and as a long term user of Nikon, I've been an avid reader of his back then.

But in order to "report" on a much wider field (covering all mirror-less cameras and SLRs on multiple different sites), he seems too busy to pay much attention to Nikon nowadays.

If you didn't notice, he wrote the piece you linked on 4/30/2021, and seems to blame Nikon for "releasing annual report months later than usual" and "failed to notify him".

Well, the truth is, that annual report was released in May of 2020 (yes, almost
...Show more



May 04, 2021 at 05:42 PM
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