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In Stock: Sigma 105mm f/2.8 DG DN Macro Art ($799)

  
 
1bwana1
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Ok, it did happen.

Here is the the years old (2016) chart and comments on the Sony 90mm macro that you linked to:

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/08/more-photogeekery-finite-conjugate-mtf-bench-tests-for-macro-lenses/

And (drum roll please) the chart on the Sigma 105mm macro to compare.

https://www.sigma-global.com/en/lenses/cas/product/art/a020_105_28/data/


Interesting, the Sigma seems like the new winner in this segment.


By the way, just because it says macro doesn't mean that it is only used to shoot macro images. one of the most common uses is to shoot portraits. Very often at f 2.8 to add subject separation.

I will also use it for product photography where rendering, flare resistance and CA control are very important. The Sima seem better in these categories as well.

I think you may want to go to the nearest mirror in you house. I think you might find your fanboy lurking there. It is just the most logical place to look it seems to me.

Once you have located this fanboy, the two of you may want to sit down, grab a beer and watch this video about the significance of the MTF achievement of the Sigma 105mm f/2.8 macro Dg DN and how it has changed the position of the competitors in the current marketplace instead of the 4 year old market place.

If you watch a little longer, you will also learn why some of the focus speed compromises were made in exchange for superior IQ, CA control, and improved rendering.

Specifically you will learn why Sigma choose the element/grouping arrangement you mentioned. It has benefits. So much for your to learn Grasshopper.

Start watching at the 4 minute mark. It won't take long. Resist the urge to hail the new King. Then come back with more questions.

&t=1101s




Nov 22, 2020 at 05:02 PM
vdo1
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I'm afraid that if you quoted the Sigma theoretical MTF you would need to quote the same for Sony (and not a bench measurement):

https://www.sony.ca/en/electronics/camera-lenses/sel90m28g

Still doesn't help the Sony but at least we can't be accused of doing the apple/oranges thing.



Nov 22, 2020 at 06:07 PM
osv2
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1bwana1 wrote:
Ok, it did happen.

Here is the the years old (2016) chart and comments on the Sony 90mm macro that you linked to:

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/08/more-photogeekery-finite-conjugate-mtf-bench-tests-for-macro-lenses/


i see an actual real-world measurement.

1bwana1 wrote:
And (drum roll please) the chart on the Sigma 105mm macro to compare.

https://www.sigma-global.com/en/lenses/cas/product/art/a020_105_28/data/


that's a theoretical manufacturer claim, not a real-world measurement.

1bwana1 wrote:
Interesting, the Sigma seems like the new winner in this segment


more like you don't understand what you posted



Edited on Nov 22, 2020 at 06:31 PM · View previous versions



Nov 22, 2020 at 06:26 PM
osv2
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vdo1 wrote:
I'm afraid that if you quoted the Sigma theoretical MTF you would need to quote the same for Sony (and not a bench measurement):

https://www.sony.ca/en/electronics/camera-lenses/sel90m28g

Still doesn't help the Sony but at least we can't be accused of doing the apple/oranges thing.


if it's apples vs. apples, what focus distances are those theoretical figures estimated at?

link or it's not relevant.




Nov 22, 2020 at 06:30 PM
1bwana1
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osv2 wrote:
more like you don't understand what you posted.




Nope, understood perfectly. Just trying to answer your question by working with what is available.

I cannot find an actual measured chart for the newly released Sigma. Of course even if I did, if it wasn't done by Lens Rentals you would question the validity source between. Maybe one day Roger will get around to testing it. Until then your defense will always be to obfuscate facts, with meaningless objections, to try and justify your clearly wrong position.

Of course someone else has already posted theoretical MTF to theoretical MTF chart comparisons. Each done by the respective manufacturer. They also don't support your position. But I am sure you will invent some objection to that comparison as well.

I think the important thing is that we have looked at 4 different macro lenses in a similar FL category. All seem to be great choices for a variety of subtle reasons. There is no point in petty quibbling and personal attacks between fellow FM members about which one is the right choice for their own use case. It is only that fanboy guy in your mirror who is vested in proving one more valid that the other.

For the rest of us, I suggest we move on and enjoy our wonderful lens whichever choice that turns out to be. This is the Sigma 105mm F/2.8 Art macro lens thread. That lens should be the focus of discussion, and image posting in this thread. There is another thread for the lens you chose.



Nov 22, 2020 at 06:44 PM
1bwana1
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osv2 wrote:
if it's apples vs. apples, what focus distances are those theoretical figures estimated at?

link or it's not relevant.



Sigma in the video clearly states the chart they are referencing is at 1:1 macro distance as you requested. They then go on to show the charts for use with 1.4 and 2.0 TC as well. How does the Sony do with those?

Good enough?

Unfortunately, I suspect not. You continually get more restrictive, and more petty as each of your positions is discredited.




Nov 22, 2020 at 06:46 PM
osv2
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1bwana1 wrote:
Sigma in the video clearly states the chart they are referencing is at 1:1 macro distance as you requested.


and the sony lens data?

you _did_ make a claim about the fe90 theoretical data, remember?

1bwana1 wrote:
They then go on to show the charts for use with 1.4 and 2.0 TC as well. How does the Sony do with those?


a tc with the e-mount sigma lens?

what?

1bwana1 wrote:
Unfortunately, I suspect not. You continually get more restrictive, and more petty as each of your positions is discredited.


you just got busted for making false claims about actual measurement vs. theoretical, and i'm "petty"?

calm down, it's just a camera lens



Nov 22, 2020 at 07:44 PM
osv2
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1bwana1 wrote:
Nope, understood perfectly. Just trying to answer your question by working with what is available.


you are making up "facts" out of thin air.

for example:

1bwana1 wrote:
I cannot find an actual measured chart for the newly released Sigma.


which doesn't support your earlier claim: "...Sigma built a lens that is as sharp or sharper over a broader set of apertures, and a wider part of the frame"

1bwana1 wrote:
Of course someone else has already posted theoretical MTF to theoretical MTF chart comparisons. Each done by the respective manufacturer. They also don't support your position.


they don't support any position, because theoretical numbers between different manufacturers are not always done to the same standard.

i tried to point that out with the question about what focus distances were being used in the mfg calculations.

1bwana1 wrote:
That lens should be the focus of discussion, and image posting in this thread.


fred miranda brought up the fe90 in the third post to this thread.

so no, this thread isn't just about the sigma 105... it would be stupid to ignore the fe90, comparisons between the two are of interest to many people, and therefore relevant.



Nov 22, 2020 at 08:10 PM
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So I guess that means you really can't factually show that the Sony is better optically? Just because it has been tested more, doesn't mean it is better. Can't have it both ways. Number of elements, types of glass.......other than size and weight there is nothing guaranteed to be factual in regards to how the lens performs. You are surmising something, which isn't really factual.

I guess we'll have to wait to see if we end up getting reviews of both....and hopefully they'll use comparable bodies. I've found it hard sometimes to find apples to apples comparisons of newer and older lenses.

We can't really take the word of Marc Alhadeff, because the argument will be it's not provable by what he provides in his tests, I assume right?

You note that comparisons are good. Can you factually prove the Sony is better optically, the same, or worse? And if so, in what areas? If not, then this little back of forth is a waste of time. So I guess we stick with size, weight, OSS, AF/MF experience for now. Let's move this thread out of the rut it's in.

Too tired at the moment, but I'll try to post a few pictures tomorrow.

-Tim

osv2 wrote:
you are making up "facts" out of thin air.

for example:

which doesn't support your earlier claim: "...Sigma built a lens that is as sharp or sharper over a broader set of apertures, and a wider part of the frame"

they don't support any position, because theoretical numbers between different manufacturers are not always done to the same standard.

i tried to point that out with the question about what focus distances were being used in the mfg calculations.

fred miranda brought up the fe90 in the third post to this thread.

so no, this thread isn't just about the sigma 105... it would be
...Show more




Nov 22, 2020 at 11:36 PM
osv2
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tsdevine wrote:
So I guess that means you really can't factually show that the Sony is better optically?


what i said was: "i think that the fe90 has a certain look to it...", and i provided proof of that, along with pointing out concrete advantages that the fe90 has, that you also just listed.

some people didn't want to accept that, and they responded with misgeneralizations and unsubstantiated claims that the sigma 105 was sharper, etc.

tsdevine wrote:
We can't really take the word of Marc Alhadeff, because the argument will be it's not provable by what he provides in his tests,


the guy that posts pics of his bookcase? no mtf tests? he claimed that: "The Sigma has more regular Bokeh balls compared to the Sony that exhibits some strange forms and that is not perfectly circular", and then contradicted himself with his f/4 bokeh comparison, where the sigma bokeh was heavily distorted on the right side.

what, did he get the pics mixed up?

it's funny how people criticize the methodology behind dxo scoring, but when marc makes inexplicable claims of "outstanding", "excellent", "very good", people just blindly accept whatever voodoo he used to come up with those classifications... i'm not the only person on fm who's pointed that out.








Nov 23, 2020 at 03:38 AM
 


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tsdevine
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The Marc reference was a little bit of a bait. But can you factually point to the special look? Because from what others have seen, they believe the Sigma may be optically better. But that has to be proven factually. Can you factually prove the special look? Is there a litmus test on what opinions need to be backed by factual reference? Let's see the factual backing for the special look then...

You mentioned the number of elements and groups, insinuating the Sony was better because it had more elements (which it didn't...I made the same mistake early on as I also had looked at B&H.) Can you factually show that all lenses that have more elements are better than those that have less? You said "sigma didn't go all-out on this 105 macro, it doesn't have the higher-end ELD/FLD elements that they put in some of their other lenses", which sounds like opinion. The "didn't go all-out" seems a little inflammatory. Was that baiting? Yet you seem all on board on attacking opinions that don't align with your beliefs. So you talk about special look, but then quote Marc questioning his opinion. And you require facts on anything you don't agree with....... I will say that he shows the bokeh from both lenses at f/2.8, but the Sony does look odder....and I'm not sure it's really f/2.8.

In regards to sample variation, I do believe that is fairly well known with the Sony. It seems Sony has really done better with its newer lenses, but some of those which were designed earlier do seem to have issues. I can't prove it factually, but I've seen that comment made multiple times over the years, in fact even in this thread, and there is some level of corroboration from Lensrentals data.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1666092/2#15362968

From the Lensrentals data, it sure seems like it may be subject to more variation than some of the other Sony lenses.

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/06/the-sony-fe-lenses-mtf-and-variance-summary/

Fred surmises it might have better axial CA control, but we won't know for sure until we can see some more apples to apples tests.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1666092/1#15362904

So maybe everyone here is seeing through rose colored glasses. Be happy with your FE 90, but don't create a bullet list noting optical complexity and amount of special glass and insinuating something, then get all high and mighty that everyone has to prove something as fact. Just respectfully disagree.

From what I've seen of the FE 90, it looks like a great lens. But at the moment, I'm of the opinion that the Sigma is probably better optically. I can't prove that, nor can you prove the inverse. So we'll just have to wait and see.

I do agree with you that the Sony weighs less, has a different optical formula, has OSS (which the Sigma doesn't), faster AF, and I imagine a better MF experience. But for my uses, those weren't huge drivers.

Hopefully we'll see more reviews and get gauge the optical aspects better, in terms of comparison.

-Tim


osv2 wrote:


what i said was: "i think that the fe90 has a certain look to it...", and i provided proof of that, along with pointing out concrete advantages that the fe90 has, that you also just listed.

some people didn't want to accept that, and they responded with misgeneralizations and unsubstantiated claims that the sigma 105 was sharper, etc.



the guy that posts pics of his bookcase? no mtf tests? he claimed that: "The Sigma has more regular Bokeh balls compared to the Sony that exhibits some strange forms and that is not perfectly circular", and then contradicted himself with his
...Show more



Edited on Nov 23, 2020 at 09:43 AM · View previous versions



Nov 23, 2020 at 07:38 AM
tsdevine
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I would rent the Sigma before making a big move like that. The 135 GM is hard to replace with a slower 105 macro lens. As to the Sony 90 macro vs the Sigma, they’re not a 100% match in features. And we don’t have a definitive comparison for how they perform optically, although I suspect the Sigma is as good or better. Whether that difference is materially worth it, is sort of subjective.

-Tim

brianaabram wrote:
I shoot with an RIV and own the 24gm, Samyang 45 1.8, 90 macro, 135gm, and Sigma 100-400. The 90 macro is my least used lens, but when I want it nothing else will do. I use the 24 and 135 most often. Am I crazy to consider selling both the 90 and 135 for this 105 macro?




Nov 23, 2020 at 08:48 AM
osv2
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tsdevine wrote:
The Marc reference was a little bit of a bait.


or you just didn't know any better, until after i pointed out how flawed his work is...

it's a bit of a disappointment actually, given your single-minded pursuit of 28mm legacy primes and such.

tsdevine wrote:
But can you factually point to the special look?


i posted a link with a popular pic, that a number of people thought had that look.

of course, for people who think that marc alhadeff walks on water, it may not make much sense

tsdevine wrote:
From the Lensrentals data, it sure seems like it may be subject to more variation than some of the other Sony lenses.

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/06/the-sony-fe-lenses-mtf-and-variance-summary/


or it may not, and the sigma 105 could end up having worse variation issues...

i've already posted the actual ca measurements, i guess that you didn't see it.

tsdevine wrote:
From what I've seen of the FE 90, it looks like a great lens. But at the moment, I'm of the opinion that the Sigma is probably better optically. I can't prove that, nor can you prove the inverse. So we'll just have to wait and see.


once again... i didn't start out claiming that either lens was better, i simply stated that the fe90 had a look that i liked, and i posted proof of that.

this thread degenerated because certain individuals need to justify what they spent their money on, to the point of making outright false claims.

the fact that you didn't point out where those claims were wrong speaks volumes about where you stand on this... it's obviously not on the side of impartiality.

tsdevine wrote:
I do agree with you that the Sony weighs less, has a different optical formula, has OSS (which the Sigma doesn't), faster AF, and I imagine a better MF experience. But for my uses, those weren't huge drivers.


the sigma 105 fails at manual focusing, it's a poor implementation of focus-by-wire, who wants that in a macro lens? and the autofocus is weak sauce compared to the fe90... so how is it that focusing a lens isn't a "huge driver" for you?

bottom line, you are trying to justify your purchase of this lens by glossing over the reality of it, just like the other posters.

fortunately there are some reviewers who build credibility by pointing out both pluses and minuses:

"The Sigma, by comparison, uses a standard focus-by-wire system where input on the focus ring moves through the focus motor to effect focus change. There’s a bit of lag, so sometimes minor adjustments don’t register, but if you are too broad in trying to get the lens to detect the movement, it will focus too much. It was a bit frustrating at first, though my brain started to adapt and it got easier. Still, however, there’s no question the Sony is the preferred lens for this kind of manual focus work.

...while the [auto]focus quality is pretty good here, it’s not as smooth, quiet, and refined as I’ve come to expect in the best lenses and isn’t quite at the level of 85mm F1.4 DN I recently tested from them.

There is a quiet clicking that can be heard while focus changes are made, but it is loud enough that the on-camera microphone will pick it up. You will notice it it a bit while shooting stills with the lens the first few times, but it will quickly blend into the white noise as it isn’t very loud. The greatest liability will be for shooting video, though if you capture your audio separately, it won’t be an issue.

The biggest thing I hope to see corrected was an observed reluctance at times to focus on a foreground object, which is particularly annoying in a macro lens where this is often your shooting priority."

https://dustinabbott.net/2020/09/sigma-105mm-f2-8-dn-macro-review/



Nov 23, 2020 at 11:51 AM
tsdevine
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No, I noticed. His tests tend to be less rigid and offer more opinion and not as much data driven analysis. I don't often point to his reviews, but other than Youtube videos, there doesn't seem to be many tests where the two lenses are shot side by side.

I have no beef with you, other than offering opinions and then getting ape over someone else's opinion when it doesn't agree with yours. Or maybe someone went ape first, causing you to push back in kind. Maybe you didn't instigate it, or didn't have much of a part in it.

Everything I've seen from the FE 90 makes me think it's a great lens, I've never had one to try though. I have the CV 110 for MF macro, the Sigma for me was to fill the gap when serious macro setup is not viable and I needed AF. I might have been able to get away with the CV 110 if sony implemented trap focus, but it doesn't. I was surprised with the results the Sigma delivered, and I can see myself using it more than expected.

My single-minded pursuit of 28mm legacy primes has been based on my personal experience. You'll see there is very little posting of measured resolution, formal controlled tests, bokeh comparisons, etc by me. I don't point to 20 reviews made by others either, although I may point to threads here on FM where someone else may have compared certain lenses.

I have the Sigma and CV 110, and I posted some comparisons. I consider them to be excellent lenses, based on personal experience. I suspect the Sigma might be better optically than the FE 90, but I can't prove that personally, because I don't have that lens, nor are there many reviews out there. On the flip side, I would be shocked if the FE 90 is incredibly better optically than the Sigma. If it were, it's because I only have the a7R III, not the IV, so I'm not seeing the flaws as readily. And a higher resolution camera would expose them.

Maybe we're all victims here, you and I included. I bear no ill will, and I would never fault you for finding the FE 90 great....as well as having a special look. I do value opinions. You have first hand experience with the FE 90, and to me that puts you in a great position to offer opinions on the lens.

I just get frustrated when people express their opinions, as do others, and it degenerates....well...into this. And I sometimes get swept into the vortex. I'll take responsibility for where I may have contributed to this, and hope everyone does as well.

Maybe we'll luck out and we'll get someone on this thread who has both, I don't think I've seen any real comparisons here. I'm also sort of surprised on how slow the reviews are coming out for the Sigma, maybe due to being a slowish macro lens.

I'm not going to continue down this path, my future posts will be more geared towards the Sigma......and less related to other lenses, unless it's a lens I have. So don't block me!

I would suggest anyone looking for a 90-110'ish macro lens, take a look a the FE 90, Laowa 100, Sigma 105, and CV 110.

-Tim

osv2 wrote:
or you just didn't know any better, until after i pointed out how flawed his work is...

it's a bit of a disappointment actually, given your single-minded pursuit of 28mm legacy primes and such, i expected better from you.



i posted a link with a popular pic, that a number of people thought had that look.

of course, for people who think that marc alhadeff walks on water, it may not make much sense

or it may not, and the sigma 105 could end up having worse variation issues...

i've already posted the actual ca measurements, i guess that you didn't see it.

once
...Show more




Nov 23, 2020 at 12:29 PM
Besar
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I have a question, which of the following lenses is better, sharper






Nov 23, 2020 at 01:15 PM
1bwana1
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tsdevine wrote:
I'm not going to continue down this path, my future posts will be more geared towards the Sigma.

-Tim


That is a wise choice. At one point this was a friendly fun thread.

You will not make any progress, nor will anything of value be contributed by this kind of discussion with someone with the kind of disorder exhibited here in this thread. Your sincere attempt to have a positive conversation is respected by many here. However, recognize that some come to threads intending to create discord. They attack a number of people rudely and directly hoping to bait arguments. Most of the good contributors just go away as has happened on this thread. We know this to be true in this thread from the PMs going around regarding his behaviour. So, in that sense he has accomplished his goal.

Why people feel the need to behave this way is a mystery. Possibly answered when you click on their WWW button and see their photography. Helps explain their emotional need to be a paper expert.

Likely this thread has already been irreparably damaged by malicious trolling.

Maybe it is best to leave this thread behind. Possibly we can start another "Images" thread and carry on enjoying our hobby there.





Nov 23, 2020 at 01:20 PM
1bwana1
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Besar wrote:
I have a question, which of the following lenses is better, sharper



Those pair of charts don't support certain positions any more than the one below does.

This Sigma 105mm chart shows better results than the Sony 90mm does.

The neurotic need to discredit such charts by some not withstanding. Sad, but funny in its own way.







Nov 23, 2020 at 01:42 PM
tsdevine
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Lensrentals is measured, and averaged across multiple copies. Hopefully they will put the Sigma on the bench to test.

-Tim



Nov 23, 2020 at 01:44 PM
1bwana1
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tsdevine wrote:
Lensrentals is measured, and averaged across multiple copies. Hopefully they will put the Sigma on the bench to test.

-Tim


Yes, but until then this is what we have.

Roger is working with DPReview for doing this kind of thing now. Maybe that new position will enable more testing.



Edited on Nov 23, 2020 at 01:57 PM · View previous versions



Nov 23, 2020 at 01:56 PM
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tsdevine wrote:
No, I noticed. His tests tend to be less rigid and offer more opinion and not as much data driven analysis. I don't often point to his reviews, but other than Youtube videos, there doesn't seem to be many tests where the two lenses are shot side by side.

I have no beef with you, other than offering opinions and then getting ape over someone else's opinion when it doesn't agree with yours. Or maybe someone went ape first, causing you to push back in kind. Maybe you didn't instigate it, or didn't have much of a part in it.


i have huge respect for your work, and i'm looking forward to seeing your eval of this sigma 105.

as far as instigation goes, i didn't start it, lol: "...as good as the sigma 105 macro appears to be, i don't see it being a substitute for the fe90... it's a xlnt cheaper alternative for people who don't already have the fe90"

everything that's been posted pretty much bears that out... you sure wouldn't want the sigma over the fe90 for manual focusing, or af either, if you needed ois, etc... minor differences in p.q. are rather insignificant in comparison to those things.

one exception, and the biggest problem with the fe90 by far, is that it has to be stopped down to get clean corners at long landscape focus distances... but how many people shoot landscapes with a 90mm macro lens, at wide apertures? if you are one of the few who does that, the fe90 isn't the best choice.

as for how sharp the fe90 is... see this dxo measurement(not calculation) vs. a $4000 macro lens, and early lensrentals proof that focus distance matters with the fe90:








Nov 23, 2020 at 01:57 PM
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