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Archive 2020 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)

  
 
GHarris
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p.4 #1 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


chiron wrote:
I was speculating very loosely about the possibility of a new mount, so even if you were to be correct, we are just jawing around here and enjoying ourselves in a sort of excited late-at-night moment before a dawn.

But it is also true that a new mount doesn't mean abandoning other mounts, certainly not the FE, and the idea of a system as a single vast Canon-like array with a single mount stretching to the horizon for all purposes and all photographers may no longer be the best way to think about a system in a time of extremely rapid
...Show more

iPhones, RX100s, ZV-1s... they're all, in a sense, disposable. Right from the start, there's no upgrade path. You have to replace the whole thing when you upgrade, and you're never led to think otherwise.

And they're much cheaper.

The huge expense of high-end interchangeable bodies and high-end interchangeable lenses creates a very different world. There are inevitably lots of potential customers who want to feel that they are going to have a long-term return and flexibility on their investment.

You can tell yourself, "I can cover so many bases with this fancy lens purchase. It can produce amazing high-resolution landscape shots on my slow but high-res "R" body. It can gather lots of light to freeze the motion for action-shooting on my less-sharp but super-responsive a9 body. And in three years' time, it'll work amazingly well with whatever camera body they'll release next... and it's exciting and reassuring to know that that will happen - there *will* be compatible future camera bodies for many years to come, getting ever more responsive, ever faster at AF, ever higher in resolution."

And so you open your wallet - with confidence.

As soon as Sony release a 2nd high-end enthusiast interchangeable mount, every potential customer is going to ask themselves: "OK, so which of these two systems is going to turn out to be VHS, and which one is going to be Betamax? One of them is going to turn out to be a dead-end. I don't feel I can confidently put my cash down on the counter and take a risk."

I think Sony are going to have to stick with the E-mount for multiple years more before they rock the boat with a curved-sensor mount or anything else disruptive. And I'm OK with that. There's still room for improvement in the pure sheer performance of existing E-mount cameras and lenses - more and more high-end and exotic glass and creative design, faster and better sensors, faster and sharper EVFs, faster burst modes and card slots, new video modes, new wired and wireless connectivity and control options. Smart in-camera image processing.

The wide scope / rich potential for fast-moving technological advancement that you mention is almost entirely unrelated to curved sensors. It's advancement on all fronts, with the current, fully-capable mount system. DSLR was holding so much of the user experience and the technological growth of cameras back. Curved sensors only help with one single thing: potentially, the size and weight of a lens of a given optical quality. Only that. It doesn't revolutionize how autofocus works, how viewfinders work, how video works. It's just (theoretically/hopefully) a smaller lens for a given quality level. Only that. No small thing, but not enough to upset your pretty position in the market with high consumer confidence and trust in future purchasing options.

I don't think Canon would have released two separate, incompatible mirrorless mounts if they had thought it through. They released the APS-C mirrorless mount because they weren't thinking far enough ahead. Let your customers feel confident that their investment in your system is going to pay off, and they'll spend more, again and again, down the years. Whereas personally, if someone were to say to me, "I want to buy an APS-C camera, I'm considering various options, what do you think about Canon?". I'd tell them to avoid the M mount, because for all we know it will quietly die out once RF matures and can cover all the bases. It barely feels like a completely viable system as-is, with its lack of different body options and price-points. And you can't help but doubt how long there will be new toys released for that system. Because it's already somewhat of a dead-end, with a bigger and more capable and incompatible newer RF system receiving all the R&D and prestige.

Edit: Sorry, forgot to say. I agree. In all my bullshitting and proclaiming I forgot to say that this is all just chat for fun :-) You're right. Sorry if I come across a little strong.

Edited on Aug 29, 2020 at 05:24 PM · View previous versions



Aug 29, 2020 at 05:17 PM
LBJ2
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p.4 #2 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


bjornthun wrote:
Sony has a One Mount Strategy. This new rumoured camera has a name, A7c, to indicate that it’s a part of an existing family of cameras, though specified for vloggers. This points to the camera using the already familiar E-mount. There’s no way Sony would risk the E-mount faced with serious competition from Canon, Nikon and Pana/Sigma/Leica L-mount. Sony would be eaten alive.

A new family of lenses could mean that their operation might be geared more toward the operational needs of vloggers, linear AF, power zoom etc. Also vlogging could mean a need for portable lenses, which would fit with
...Show more

"A new family of lenses could mean that their operation might be geared more toward the operational needs of vloggers, linear AF, power zoom etc. Also vlogging could mean a need for portable lenses, which would fit with small sized lenses."

This is most practical and most likely very close to reality IMO.



Aug 29, 2020 at 05:21 PM
Justin Stone
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p.4 #3 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


Incoming a7CR 🙄

Way too many bodies



Aug 29, 2020 at 05:25 PM
vdo1
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p.4 #4 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


My guess is an E-mount camera similar to the Sigma fp.





Aug 29, 2020 at 05:28 PM
LBJ2
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p.4 #5 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


nhsonyshooter wrote:
"They've got a uniquely complete and capable and reliable mirrorless system."

Which is the exact reason why I think only they (Sony) could afford to release a new camera with a curved sensor. It would not be a camera that they plan on building a complete system around and it would not replace Emount. Canon and Nikon would not be able to do it right now. And I guarantee it would attract people from other systems. It would provide another revenue source more importantly which is what these company's desperately need. 1inch sensors are continuing to die off and APSC
...Show more

A Sony curved sensor tech system announcement would absolutely suck all of the R5 overheating "marketing bonanza" out of the on-line camera market. Yes, I wrote bonanza. The R5 video over-heating drama is a Canon R5 marketing bonanza. Who isn't checking out the Canon R5 at the moment? Other than the apparently self inflicted internal timer brouhaha now adjusted to a few more minutes of recording time Ha Ha, an awful lot to like about the R5/R6 and lens system. Full stop !

And who says curved sensor tech needs a new mount other than the Emount? Practical A7c + V lenses reality OTOH, is probably, most likely closer to what bjornthun wrote:

"A new family of lenses could mean that their operation might be geared more toward the operational needs of vloggers, linear AF, power zoom etc. Also vlogging could mean a need for portable lenses, which would fit with small sized lenses."



Aug 29, 2020 at 05:36 PM
LBJ2
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p.4 #6 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


chiron wrote:
I was speculating very loosely about the possibility of a new mount, so even if you were to be correct, we are just jawing around here and enjoying ourselves in a sort of excited late-at-night moment before a dawn.

But it is also true that a new mount doesn't mean abandoning other mounts, certainly not the FE, and the idea of a system as a single vast Canon-like array with a single mount stretching to the horizon for all purposes and all photographers may no longer be the best way to think about a system in a time of extremely rapid
...Show more

One can dream and have some fun! Or just buy a Leica M10 and a few tiny FF Leica M lenses.
Psst...I still think your talent deserves a red dot at some point in your photographic journey



Aug 29, 2020 at 05:40 PM
nhsonyshooter
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p.4 #7 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


LBJ2 wrote:
A Sony curved sensor tech system announcement would absolutely suck all of the R5 overheating "marketing bonanza" out of the on-line camera market. Yes, I wrote bonanza. The R5 video over-heating drama is a Canon R5 marketing bonanza. Who isn't checking out the Canon R5 at the moment? Other than the apparently self inflicted internal timer brouhaha now adjusted to a few more minutes of recording time Ha Ha, an awful lot to like about the R5/R6 and lens system. Full stop !

And who says curved sensor tech needs a new mount other than the Emount? Practical A7c + V
...Show more

I mean sure they can keep the same mount but the lenses designed for a curved sensor would be useless on any other Sony camera. So if your going that route (curved) why not make it slightly larger if that can help with IBIS for example. Which like I said before may not even be possible. All this is fun to talk about even though I know it probably will not happen I'm excited even if it's not a curved sensor.



Aug 29, 2020 at 05:45 PM
teddoman
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p.4 #8 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


Kind of interesting to look at Sony's CineAlta cameras.

There wasn't a standard identifiable mount in the early 2000s. Eventually they settled on PL mount but now they are released in E mount (which can still be adapted to PL mount with an adapter).

Forcing Nikon and Canon to change mounts took away Canikon's biggest advantage. Not sure what Sony would gain from a new mount at this point. I don't see anyone asking for curved sensors. Plenty of people with DSLRs who haven't even moved to mirrorless, much less a new curved sensor mount.




Aug 29, 2020 at 05:49 PM
Surfnsun
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p.4 #9 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


My wife has wanted a more mommy bag friendly camera for a while now. Perhaps this will fit the bill...


Aug 29, 2020 at 05:55 PM
LBJ2
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p.4 #10 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


nhsonyshooter wrote:
I mean sure they can keep the same mount but the lenses designed for a curved sensor would be useless on any other Sony camera. So if your going that route (curved) why not make it slightly larger if that can help with IBIS for example. Which like I said before may not even be possible. All this is fun to talk about even though I know it probably will not happen I'm excited even if it's not a curved sensor.


If it's just a few of us blokes on last call at the pub...dreaming of what might be... The cool thing about curved sensor tech apparently, is 2X more sensitive at the edges..even Emount ;-)

"...according to Sony when it revealed its technology in 2014, results in a simpler lens system that is 1.4x more sensitive at the center and 2x more sensitive at the edges"

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/is-sonys-medium-format-camera-with-a-curved-sensor-almost-ready



Aug 29, 2020 at 05:58 PM
GHarris
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p.4 #11 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


I think, when curved sensors come, they'll first appear in fixed-lens, non-interchangeable cameras.

They won't disrupt other product lines there. And fixed-lens cameras (whether the fixed lens be a zoom or an interestingly small, high-performance prime) would particularly benefit from the miniaturization and customisation options offered by a curved lens.

By the way, at risk of pulling this thread too off topic... When we think about curved sensors, a question arises: How curved?

For a wide-angle or standard lens, the light you're intending to collect is coming in from a broad spread of angles to begin with. What angle, precisely, depends on the focal length you're talking about.

For a telephoto lens, your incoming light-cone is inherently rather flat, rather tame and parallel.

Imagine if you made a curved sensor that was really well suited to a 35mm-focal-length lens, for example. So that you didn't need as much additional funky optics in the rear lens elements, to take an initially-curved, angled light cone and turn it into something boringly "flat" and square-on to a flat sensor. You get more optical design degrees of freedom to make something really sharp and contrasty and low on aberrations, all the way to the corners of the image, in a given lens size (because remember: in the end, you can just still throw enough "fancy" glass at any design problem, if you want, and if price and bulk aren't too much of a problem).

Now put a 600mm lens on that same, curved-sensor camera.

"Ah."

"I'm having to put additional, funky, curved rear lens elements on my nice tidy telephoto lens, to actively curve and spread outwards its once beautifully flat and neat parallel light cone, onto a sensor more curved than is needed. That makes my telephoto lens more complex, more expensive.

And I can't use my old manual astronomy and birdwatching telescope any more. It produces lovely, clean, high-contrast, simple flat images, with any camera up to now, because it was made for viewing at high-magnification, at infinity, without a bajillion lens elements, and any camera adapted to it really nicely with a simple metal mount-adapter. Now, when I put my funky curved-sensor super-camera onto that telescope, I'm getting ludicrous field curvature across the frame. I need some kind of previously-unheard-of astrophotography accessory... not a field-flattener, but a-field curver! And nobody makes one, not with the right specifications for the curvature I need to add, because this is all a bit... niche. What a shame. I hope not all future cameras have curved sensors. If one side has to lose, I hope the new curve-sensors lose the coming format war."

Just one daft line of thought. Feel free to poke holes in it. None of these clashes and considerations are a problem in a fixed-lens camera design. And it might take a while for manufacturers and designers to reach a good consensus on the best amount of "one size fits all" curvature to put on their curved sensors for interchangeable cameras. Even if the tech basically works, now (if curved digital camera sensors can be made in large quantities, I mean)... it's still early days with some potential early-adopter traps lying in wait. I'd rather the manufacturers cut their teeth on designing bespoke one-off combinations of curved-sensor and matched-fancy-lens on fixed camera systems, at first.



Aug 29, 2020 at 06:14 PM
nhsonyshooter
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p.4 #12 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


teddoman wrote:
Kind of interesting to look at Sony's CineAlta cameras.

There wasn't a standard identifiable mount in the early 2000s. Eventually they settled on PL mount but now they are released in E mount (which can still be adapted to PL mount with an adapter).

Forcing Nikon and Canon to change mounts took away Canikon's biggest advantage. Not sure what Sony would gain from a new mount at this point. I don't see anyone asking for curved sensors. Plenty of people with DSLRs who haven't even moved to mirrorless, much less a new curved sensor mount.



That's the sign of a good innovative company. They are not doing what everyone else is doing or ever satisfied. They make things no one asked for and didn't realize they needed till it was made. Making things that people ask for is easy



Aug 29, 2020 at 06:29 PM
chez
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p.4 #13 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


I used to travel with the A7R2 / A6000 and they shared everything from batteries, cards and lenses. Then I acquired an A7R3 and it became somewhat of a pain to travel with two separate battery systems...but still doable.

If this new camera has an incompatible lens mount to my FE lenses...that's a show stopper. I'm not prepared to travel with two full sets of lenses, one for my A7R3 and one for my new compact full frame. Please Sony...don't change the lens mount.



Aug 29, 2020 at 06:34 PM
chiron
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p.4 #14 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


Justin Stone wrote:
Incoming a7CR 🙄

Way too many bodies


Can you ever have too many bodies to choose from?

Edited on Aug 29, 2020 at 06:44 PM · View previous versions



Aug 29, 2020 at 06:43 PM
GHarris
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p.4 #15 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


chez wrote:
I used to travel with the A7R2 / A6000 and they shared everything from batteries, cards and lenses. Then I acquired an A7R3 and it became somewhat of a pain to travel with two separate battery systems...but still doable.

If this new camera has an incompatible lens mount to my FE lenses...that's a show stopper. I'm not prepared to travel with two full sets of lenses, one for my A7R3 and one for my new compact full frame. Please Sony...don't change the lens mount.


Fortunately I think we're all just daydreaming among ourselves here (when we really ought to, y'know, go and take some ruddy photographs or something). The amount of chatter on the subject in this thread (and I'm probably making it much worse by dwelling on it at such pointless length, even to argue against it) is, thankfully, no reflection on what Sony is actually going to release!

It's a big, big thing, to launch a new lens mount. Fun to talk about and chew on the implications of. But not gonna happen.



Aug 29, 2020 at 06:44 PM
Asael
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p.4 #16 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


My bet is on a Sigma fp competitor, with no changes to sensor or mount (and unfortunately FZ100 batteries instead of FW50, which I would prefer for size/weight & compatibility with the A7RII I will use with it when traveling -- some day...). I did not get the fp because of the lack of a viewfinder, and seems like the Sony will have it (even if just a pop up).


Aug 29, 2020 at 06:52 PM
DavidBM
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p.4 #17 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


chiron wrote:
I also definitely wish for the viewfinder, and I have never bought a camera without one. But I am also beginning to wonder why, and what it is that the EVF brings. LCD screens have gotten a lot better. What do you think one gets from the viewfinder vs the LCD other than issues of bright light sometimes making it hard to see the LCD screen? Is it better to see the image through one eye for some reason? Is the EVF better for manual focusing?


In order for the screen to occupy as large a part of your field of vision as a good EVF you would need to hold the screen about 10 cm from your face! And to achieve that would require, for almost everyone, special spectacles, as well as being a pain.



Aug 29, 2020 at 07:20 PM
chiron
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p.4 #18 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


DavidBM wrote:
In order for the screen to occupy as large a part of your field of vision as a good EVF you would need to hold the screen about 10 cm from your face! And to achieve that would require, for almost everyone, special spectacles, as well as being a pain.


I like EVFs, don't get me wrong. And yet...

There are things the LCD can do that the EVF isn't as good at. I can shift the camera and composition much more easily and quickly while looking at my composition on the LCD rather than the EVF, and I think that I do shift my compositions more readily and flexibly--up, down, left, right, forward, back--when using the EVF to view and compose the scene. Doesn't work if you are using a tripod, of course.

Also, having the EVF occupy more of my field of vision is not necessarily an advantage in many shooting situations where being able to see both your composition and also what is happening around you may be better than only seeing what you have framed. And the LCD makes it possible to see both your composition and the scene itself through your own eyes at the same time.

I'm not even sure the EVF is really better for seeing the framed composition itself since the EVF limits your view to one eye, losing the extra information provided by binocular vision. To see what I mean, try reading this text with one eye closed. Better or worse than with two eyes?

I think the bright light and the diopter are real difficulties for EVFs, but not insoluble. I would imagine a diopter function could be built into the software for an EVF or even overlaid on the screen and the screens themselves can be made brighter, as many already have been. It's all just a matter of NITS.

I wonder if we are not, unlike phone-camera using millennials, mired in the habits and expectations of an older technology that may be in the process of being replaced. My sons and daughter-in-law wouldn't use an EVF if you glued it to their heads.

Still, I'm glad the A7C will apparently have an EVF of some sort.



Aug 29, 2020 at 07:56 PM
Asael
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p.4 #19 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


> My sons and daughter-in-law wouldn't use an EVF if you glued it to their heads.
Wait till they hit 40s and need reading glasses...



Aug 29, 2020 at 08:22 PM
trogdon
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p.4 #20 · Pre-order: Sony A7C Compact Full Frame ($1,798)


I’m just looking forward to the lenses. The 35mm f2.8 ZA is a very underrated, incredible optic. More lenses like that and I’d be a happy camper. Maybe some short zooms like a 20-60, 24-50, and 100-200


Aug 29, 2020 at 08:32 PM
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