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R5 artificial time limit

  
 
Ziffl3
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p.5 #1 · p.5 #1 · R5 artificial time limit


snapsy wrote:
Bad choice of words on my part - I meant a follow-up press release, with the original being the official announcement of the specs, which left out the recording limits. I haven't seen any documented way to trick the camera to bypass the presumed cripple timer - the cardless, HDMI-only case bypasses DIGIC compression entirely, which can plausibly be the reason the recording limits are longer in that scenario (lots of data movement and computation even for ALL-I not to mention h.264/h.265). The cardless scenario also argues against the intentional crippling argument since many professional videographers use external monitors/recorders anyway.
...Show more

actually .... i am sure canon is aware ... hence no 4K120 FPS external output.
many - many video shooter would love to use the 4K120. that would be why i would purchase the camera.

i can see limitations on HDMI protocol.... so why not use type-C output?
ie blackmagic PCC 6K. it has type-C out as to allow SSD recording medium.

why no 1080P @120 or 240? ... external?

This is a partial canon managing the cinema line.

But they do not realize by allowing this... they would have a run-a-way hit. and if video shooters wanted to move up ... they would jump to the canon cinema line. so simple.

This is a missed opportunity and conscious decision on the part of canon.



Aug 11, 2020 at 06:28 PM
Jesse Evans
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p.5 #2 · p.5 #2 · R5 artificial time limit


snapsy wrote:
Bad choice of words on my part - I meant a follow-up press release, with the original being the official announcement of the specs, which left out the recording limits. I haven't seen any documented way to trick the camera to bypass the presumed cripple timer - the cardless, HDMI-only case bypasses DIGIC compression entirely, which can plausibly be the reason the recording limits are longer in that scenario (lots of data movement and computation even for ALL-I not to mention h.264/h.265). The cardless scenario also argues against the intentional crippling argument since many professional videographers use external monitors/recorders anyway.
...Show more

I'm happy to give that a shot. Currently I have my EOS R5 is on its second round of overheating testing in 8k.

Here is what I did for my initial test:

Sat the camera on my desk. A peak design design tripod clip raising it off the surface. Left the display swung out to the left. All power saving features enabled. Display refresh set to power saving / evf would be 60hz but it was inactive anyway.

I just left the camera on the desk recording.

I used a Klein Tools IR10 to take both k type temperature probe readings as well as infrared readings in order to ensure the readings were pretty accurate.

Room Details:

75f ambient temperature with an overhead fan running which would be blowing air on the the R5.

Video settings:

8k / 23.98p / ALL-I

Card:

Sony Tough G CFExpress 512GB

Observations:

Camera started the test at 71f through both k-type probe and ir readings with a 0.95 emissivity rating.
Overheat warning came on at 17:00 - Recorded external temperature of 98.4f.
Video recorded for exactly 20:04 - Recorded external temperature of 98.0f
CFExpress card temperature upon ejection from the camera - Label / Top side: 134f - Bottom side: 92f.
K-Type probe readings from CFExpress slot ~30s after ejecting the card: 128f
CFExpress card temperatures after testing CFExpress slot temps ~30s after initial test - Label / Top side: 91f, Bottom side: 79f.

I failed to act fast enough to get a reasonable temperature from inside of the battery chamber.

I took measurements from around the entire camera body to find the hottest part while recording, the next highest temp area is between the grip and the lens mount at around 93.4f, this matched the left side of the rear panel.

On the left side of the camera the maximum temperature observed was 91f.

After the test, with the battery out and I placed the camera in the freezer after placing it in a ziploc bag which I pressed all of the air out of.

After 25 minutes I took the camera out to see how much time I had to work with on the camera. All tested internal and external surfaces were cooled to a temperature of 53-54f depending on location. The timer read 15:00 which it did during the first test as well.

On this second test, the camera achieved another record time of 20:10. Longer than the first test. And this was with 20 minutes in the freezer.

So, I actually think I have just provided some evidence *against* the idea that Canon is artificially causing a timer to tick down once the camera has overheated.

Edit to add: CFExpress card was only 119f upon being pulled out on the second test, and the interior of the CFExpress slot was ~113f.



Aug 11, 2020 at 07:21 PM
Jesse Evans
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p.5 #3 · p.5 #3 · R5 artificial time limit


Just to summarize the above:

I was able to get the full record time back after only 25 minutes by placing the camera in the freezer.



Aug 11, 2020 at 07:26 PM
snapsy
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p.5 #4 · p.5 #4 · R5 artificial time limit


Jesse Evans wrote:
I'm happy to give that a shot. Currently I have my EOS R5 is on its second round of overheating testing in 8k.

Here is what I did for my initial test:

Sat the camera on my desk. A peak design design tripod clip raising it off the surface. Left the display swung out to the left. All power saving features enabled. Display refresh set to power saving / evf would be 60hz but it was inactive anyway.

I just left the camera on the desk recording.

I used a Klein Tools IR10 to take both k type temperature probe readings as well
...Show more

Great experiment, thanks. Btw, you can also add internal temperature samples to your collection by taking a stills photos (before/after taking a video) and using exiftool to extract the temp. For example, this command line will print the temp of every photo in the mypics image. They have to be OOC images (so that the full EXIF is intact):

exiftool -CameraTemperature "c:\mypics*.jpg"

Any chance you can try the battery pull experiment I described in a link above? The results of your experiment imply it probably wont make a difference since the camera responded well to freezer cooling, but just in case there's some element to the camera keeping track of total recording time as part of its thermal algorithm. Pulling the battery while recording might corrupt the card so you might want to format it after putting the battery back in.



Aug 11, 2020 at 07:33 PM
johnvanr
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p.5 #5 · p.5 #5 · R5 artificial time limit


This whole thing reminds me of what Tesla and other car makers do with regard to their maximum 0-60 mph modes. They limit the number of times you can use this launch mode to protect the carís durability, but - in Teslaís case - you can pay to have that limit lifted (and I assume accept the higher maintenance costs this will lead to).


Aug 11, 2020 at 07:36 PM
TeamSpeed
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p.5 #6 · p.5 #6 · R5 artificial time limit


So then the exif data for temperatures isn't accurate from this article and invalidates the article?

https://www.eoshd.com/news/eoshd-testing-finds-canon-eos-r5-overheating-to-be-fake-with-artificial-timers-deployed-to-lock-out-video-mode/



Aug 11, 2020 at 08:15 PM
J.Marcus Photo
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p.5 #7 · p.5 #7 · R5 artificial time limit


Possibly the tilta fan has a chance to be helpful...

Jesse Evans wrote:
Just to summarize the above:

I was able to get the full record time back after only 25 minutes by placing the camera in the freezer.




Aug 11, 2020 at 08:52 PM
Andrew J
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p.5 #8 · p.5 #8 · R5 artificial time limit


We might be seeing test results from two different firmwares.


Aug 11, 2020 at 08:53 PM
snapsy
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p.5 #9 · p.5 #9 · R5 artificial time limit


TeamSpeed wrote:
So then the exif data for temperatures isn't accurate from this article and invalidates the article?

https://www.eoshd.com/news/eoshd-testing-finds-canon-eos-r5-overheating-to-be-fake-with-artificial-timers-deployed-to-lock-out-video-mode/


Andrew only spoke about the limitations of the temperature provided by the R5 over the MPT API. He seems unaware the camera supplies a precise internal temp in the EXIF.



Aug 11, 2020 at 09:08 PM
wolf33d
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p.5 #10 · p.5 #10 · R5 artificial time limit


snapsy wrote:
Andrew only spoke about the limitations of the temperature provided by the R5 over the MPT API. He seems unaware the camera supplies a precise internal temp in the EXIF.


Did you actually read the article?! He used EXIF data for his temperature test and shows that the temperature before recording 15 min of 8K is exactly the same very shortly after cooling down the camera even though it won't record again for a while.

https://www.eoshd.com/news/eoshd-testing-finds-canon-eos-r5-overheating-to-be-fake-with-artificial-timers-deployed-to-lock-out-video-mode/

That's a fact, Canon crippled the R5.



Aug 11, 2020 at 09:14 PM
 


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TeamSpeed
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p.5 #11 · p.5 #11 · R5 artificial time limit


What is the source of the sensor for the exif temperature? Without knowing where that temperature comes from, it is irrelevant for now. There are likely multiple temp sensors in the camera.


Aug 11, 2020 at 09:30 PM
TeamSpeed
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p.5 #12 · p.5 #12 · R5 artificial time limit


snapsy wrote:
Andrew only spoke about the limitations of the temperature provided by the R5 over the MPT API. He seems unaware the camera supplies a precise internal temp in the EXIF.


If you read the article, you would have found out that the API to the camera doesn't return a temperature, it returns a temperature status (normal, etc). The only temperatures they measured came from the EXIF data. Without knowing where that temp comes from within the camera, the findings are suspect at best.

Quote from the article: "We are then cross referencing these statuses with the actual temperature in the EXIF."

There are likely multiple temp sensors available to Canon within the camera, the processor for one likely has a temp system call, and there are probably other temp sensors elsewhere. One cannot assume there is ONE and ONLY ONE sensor in the camera.



Aug 11, 2020 at 09:33 PM
InnomnateViem
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p.5 #13 · p.5 #13 · R5 artificial time limit


Possibly the tilta fan has a chance to be helpful...

not thru the plastic case.



Aug 11, 2020 at 09:35 PM
Zenon Char
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p.5 #14 · p.5 #14 · R5 artificial time limit


So Canon provides EXIF data for everyone to easily see this and didnít think someone would notice?


Aug 11, 2020 at 09:42 PM
snapsy
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p.5 #15 · p.5 #15 · R5 artificial time limit


TeamSpeed wrote:
If you read the article, you would have found out that the API to the camera doesn't return a temperature, it returns a temperature status (normal, etc). The only temperatures they measured came from the EXIF data. Without knowing where that temp comes from within the camera, the findings are suspect at best.

Quote from the article: "We are then cross referencing these statuses with the actual temperature in the EXIF."

There are likely multiple temp sensors available to Canon within the camera, the processor for one likely has a temp system call, and there are probably other temp sensors elsewhere. One
...Show more

I thought you were linking to his original article, where he states the camera doesn't report a precise temperature, which is what I also stated in my reply to you, so I'm very familiar with his original article. Andrew was unaware the precise temperature is provided in the EXIF - I told him to start checking it in my post to that article here. He apparently got the message and used the EXIF temp in the new article you just posted - thanks for the link. I spoke about where the EXIF-supplied temperature has been provided in previous Canon bodies in this post - if the R5 follows previous bodies this is not the sensor or DIGIC temperature but the ambient temp from lower-speed AF control chip on the PCB. That would explain why the temp didn't change much for the video thermal thresholds Andrew measured during his tests.



Aug 11, 2020 at 09:44 PM
TeamSpeed
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p.5 #16 · p.5 #16 · R5 artificial time limit


That is what I think too, the exif temps aren't really useful in this experiment. EXIF data exists for the owner of the files to know where they took the photo (gps values), date/time, and temp (temperature in the area as the photo was taken). The CPU temp would be useless data for the owner.

What a totally useless article, IMO.



Aug 11, 2020 at 09:54 PM
InnomnateViem
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p.5 #17 · p.5 #17 · R5 artificial time limit


a good experiment would be to run the camera thru an application like APT. APT writes the sensor temperature data as part of the image file name. one could write a script to set the exposure, ISO, aperture, WB, and record the time intervals it takes to run the script. one would be able to auto-document the temp ∆s for the duration of the script frame by frame real time. you could actually see if the Peltier Effect cools the camera down. you could even do long exposure testing. that would really heat things up.

just a thought.


ps. APT records video to. so you could script the video with temp data embedded frame by frame. now that shall be fun.

Edited on Aug 11, 2020 at 10:08 PM · View previous versions



Aug 11, 2020 at 09:59 PM
EB-1
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p.5 #18 · p.5 #18 · R5 artificial time limit


I thought they removed the GPS to add less useful features?

EBH



Aug 11, 2020 at 10:01 PM
snapsy
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p.5 #19 · p.5 #19 · R5 artificial time limit


TeamSpeed wrote:
That is what I think too, the exif temps aren't really useful in this experiment. EXIF data exists for the owner of the files to know where they took the photo (gps values), date/time, and temp (temperature in the area as the photo was taken). The CPU temp would be useless data for the owner.

What a totally useless article, IMO.


It was worth a shot at least to check the EXIF temps, just in case Canon changed the location of the sensor used for the EXIF temp vs previous bodies. He seems to reach hasty conclusions based on observations without much technical knowledge or thought into the implications of those observations. I appreciate the fact he performs the experiments but he should exercise a bit more judgement and engineering thought before rattling off the headline and conclusion.



Aug 11, 2020 at 10:03 PM
TeamSpeed
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p.5 #20 · p.5 #20 · R5 artificial time limit


EB-1 wrote:
I thought they removed the GPS to add less useful features?

EBH


Not the point I was making. The point is that EXIF data that Canon stores is to be useful info for the user. The CPU temp isn't useful, but the ambient (or close to it) temps are more useful to the end user. EXIF data is for the user to know when they took the photo, where they took (for GPS enabled bodies), temperature when it was taken, distance to subject, camera settings, etc.

So the exif temp is a useless metric, and the article is fake news.

But to your point, I believe you can hook the R5 up to your phone to pull GPS data to add to the EXIF.

Edited on Aug 11, 2020 at 10:10 PM · View previous versions



Aug 11, 2020 at 10:04 PM
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