p.4 #1 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons
molson wrote:
As of noon yesterday, TCS had 58 firm orders for the R5. Their first allotment from Canon is 100 units, so at this point they will be getting more in their first shipment than people have signed up for...
You and got a different answer - they told me that:
1) Canon was looking for people who paid for it before allocating capacity
2) they already had about 50 on wait list but far less on paid basis
3) even if I paid there was low likelihood that I would get it soon
You must have spoken to the manager. I have also bought almost all most stuff at this store and I hope that they do well - I like them. But I am not going to put $5000 in their hands until I have the product in this credit crunched environment. And It felt like the guy I talked to was discouraging me from the waiting list. I encouraging me to buy now without getting it.
p.4 #2 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons
Scott Stoness wrote:
You and got a different answer - they told me that:
1) Canon was looking for people who paid for it before allocating capacity
2) they already had about 50 on wait list but far less on paid basis
3) even if I paid there was low likelihood that I would get it soon
You must have spoken to the manager. I have also bought almost all most stuff at this store and I hope that they do well - I like them. But I am not going to put $5000 in their hands until I have the product in this credit crunched environment. And It felt like the guy I talked to was discouraging me from the waiting list. I encouraging me to buy now without getting it. ...Show more →
I spoke to the owner of the store yesterday.
The quick summary is that Canon was demanding that stores take deposits, as well as asking for other information that violates Canada's privacy laws. TCS told them they would ask for deposts, but not require them, nor would they turn over customer information to Canon without the customer's express permission or a liability waiver from Canon - at which point Canon apparently dropped their demands. Take that for what it's worth...
Obviously, anyone who puts money down should get priority over someone who hasn't, but if there are enough cameras to go around, you should be able to get one even without a deposit - unless they get a big rush of new pre-orders between now and the release date. You're making it sound like they were asking for payment in full in advance, which is not correct.
I really don't understand the panic mentality to get a new product hot off the assembly line... I guess my years as a Nikon owner taught me it's better to wait for the first three or four rounds of recalls before it's safe to buy a new product.
p.4 #3 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons
molson wrote:
I spoke to the owner of the store yesterday.
The quick summary is that Canon was demanding that stores take deposits, as well as asking for other information that violates Canada's privacy laws. TCS told them they would ask for deposts, but not require them, nor would they turn over customer information to Canon without the customer's express permission or a liability waiver from Canon - at which point Canon apparently dropped their demands. Take that for what it's worth...
Obviously, anyone who puts money down should get priority over someone who hasn't, but if there are enough cameras to go around, you should be able to get one even without a deposit - unless they get a big rush of new pre-orders between now and the release date. You're making it sound like they were asking for payment in full in advance, which is not correct.
I really don't understand the panic mentality to get a new product hot off the assembly line... I guess my years as a Nikon owner taught me it's better to wait for the first three or four rounds of recalls before it's safe to buy a new product....Show more →
The guy on the phone was asking for payment in full - non refundable - through their website. I don't mind a $1000 or so non refundable deposit but not $5500. Everyone is at risk of bankruptcy now.
The "panic "for me is after September - there are no animals and my 5dsr is likely a better landscape winter camera and if a 85mpx camera is coming - why bother now. for the dis-benefit of lower resolution because the only benefit for R5 over 5dsr is fps and tracking animals for me.
p.4 #4 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons
Scott Stoness wrote:
The "panic "for me is after September - there are no animals and my 5dsr is likely a better landscape winter camera and if a 85mpx camera is coming - why bother now. for the dis-benefit of lower resolution because the only benefit for R5 over 5dsr is fps and tracking animals for me.
p.4 #5 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons
molson wrote:
Just buy an A7R IV...
~9% gain on a perfect lens vs 5DSR and lots and lots of downsides. Not working well in the cold, poor dust control, lousy menus, 12 bit on Bulb mode or continuous.... I will go back to complaining about canon.
p.4 #6 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons
Scott Stoness wrote:
The guy on the phone was asking for payment in full - non refundable - through their website. I don't mind a $1000 or so non refundable deposit but not $5500. Everyone is at risk of bankruptcy now.
The "panic "for me is after September - there are no animals and my 5dsr is likely a better landscape winter camera and if a 85mpx camera is coming - why bother now. for the dis-benefit of lower resolution because the only benefit for R5 over 5dsr is fps and tracking animals for me.
I have a really good relationship with TCS, and when I knew the camera was coming I asked them to put my name down way before pre orders started. On preorder day TCS called me and said that they’re requiring a deposit - 10% of the value of the camera. I was happy to do that.
p.4 #7 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons
Scott Stoness wrote:
~9% gain on a perfect lens vs 5DSR and lots and lots of downsides. Not working well in the cold, poor dust control, lousy menus, 12 bit on Bulb mode or continuous....
And no selfie screen! I don't know how any landscape photographer could ever take Sony seriously...
p.4 #8 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons
molson wrote:
And no selfie screen! I don't know how any landscape photographer could ever take Sony seriously...
Don't give two #&$@s about having a selfie screen, but I'll never buy another camera without a rear screen that can tilt to portrait orientation. Might seem like a trivial reason to not try/buy a Sony A7-series or Nikon Z-series, but it wasn't trivial to me.
p.4 #9 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons
highdesertmesa wrote:
Don't give two #&$@s about having a selfie screen, but I'll never buy another camera without a rear screen that can tilt to portrait orientation. Might seem like a trivial reason to not try/buy a Sony A7-series or Nikon Z-series, but it wasn't trivial to me.
Same here, super useful for vertical shooting on a tripod.
p.4 #10 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons
Jeff wrote:
I am curious whether the R5 has taken any steps forward in the software department, i.e. built-in intervalometer features, more-useful bulb timer, integrated focus-stacking, etc. Nikon seems to have an edge including useful UI features on their higher-end cameras, and I wish Canon would implement some of these things, especially considering it's not so hard to do. Video matters not to me, except maybe (hopefully?) the increasing furor over the R5's overheating issue in 8k mode will make them more available to purchase.
Looking forward to seeing actual files and tests from the R5 to answer some of the questions Scott brings up here. ...Show more →
From what I understand the R5 has an intervalometer and focus stacking which they call focus bracketing. Not sure about any bulb improvements however.
p.4 #11 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons
highdesertmesa wrote:
Don't give two #&$@s about having a selfie screen, but I'll never buy another camera without a rear screen that can tilt to portrait orientation. Might seem like a trivial reason to not try/buy a Sony A7-series or Nikon Z-series, but it wasn't trivial to me.
Pretty much narrows your choices down to Fuji or Panasonic S, then...
p.4 #12 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons
highdesertmesa wrote:
Yes, so 14.5 stops for R5 while the A7RIV sits at 14.8 (using DXOMARK as reference) – so very close. And if that 1-stop increase for the R5 is a uniform increase across all ISOs, then that means Canon will slightly surpass the A7RIV and GFX DR at higher ISOs, since right now the gap at higher ISOs is more narrow between all three.
Is it a dual gain sensor though. Surprisingly the 5D4 has equal DR from ISO160 as D810 and D850 and was slighly better at higher ISO's. Owning the 5D4 and A7RIII for a while I only saw a few cases where the A7RIII showed a clear advantage in pushing shadows. It is about 1 stop better but I could easily do a 3-4 stop push on 5D4 way better than 5DsR. With a full stop extra DR I think there will be no real world differences between the R5 and the competition even though tests may show it to be slightly behind. To me DR stopped being a real issue with the 5D4. It was so stupid they used old sensor tech for the 6DII, basically same as 5D3. After DxO fixed up their results for the 1DXIII it is a much better sensor than the 1DXII and this augers very well for the R5. Now of course the Sony fanboys will instead focus on bashing Canon for overheating issues in video rather than DR
p.4 #13 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons
Scott Stoness wrote:
The 30% maximum theoretical difference between 85mpx and 51 mpx (or 5% between 45 and 51), requires lens that can out resolve 45mpx of which their are likely none in the UWA 17mm range that I prefer.
While not ideal, you can get an idea of how current EF lenses will perform at around that FF sensor resolution by trying them on a 90D or M6II. Of course you will only be able to judge central sharpness and edge performance will remain somewhat unknown (but can probably be estimated from your experience with them on the 5DsR).
To paraphrase RC at Lens Rentals: even a not so good lens will look better on a higher resolution sensor. Go to the appendix at the bottom of this post.
Basically you're concerned about system MTF, and to determine it, you multiply lens MTF by camera/sensor MTF. So, system MFT will still improve with an OK lens on a higher resolution sensor. Sure, system MTF will improve even more with a higher performance lens.
If you want some numbers, watch the following video presentation by Peter Karbe, Leica's chief lens designer. Specifically at around 1:17:00 (one hour, 17 minutes). He talks briefly, with numbers, about determining when a lens or the sensor limits the other. Basically, if the lens is less than 50% MTF at half the sensor's Nyquist frequency, then the lens is the limit. If it's higher, then the sensor is the limit.
It's interesting to see that they've designed their SL f/2 primes to not be the limiting factor around 100MP.
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gdanmitchell wrote:
I use a 5DsR, and I can't see that it would make sense to move the R5 for me. I can already produce excellent large prints with the 5DsR files and, as you point out, it works pretty well for the kinds of wildlife photography I do. Plus, I'm invested in a slew of EF lenses, and if I'm going to make a move I'd rather do it wholesale.
I'm curious why you feel you a gradual transition wouldn't work for you? I.e. new R body with your existing EF lenses. Sounds like you'd want to switch over to RF lenses at the same time.
p.4 #14 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons
Pixel Perfect wrote:
Is it a dual gain sensor though. Surprisingly the 5D4 has equal DR from ISO160 as D810 and D850 and was slighly better at higher ISO's. Owning the 5D4 and A7RIII for a while I only saw a few cases where the A7RIII showed a clear advantage in pushing shadows. It is about 1 stop better but I could easily do a 3-4 stop push on 5D4 way better than 5DsR. With a full stop extra DR I think there will be no real world differences between the R5 and the competition even though tests may show it to be slightly behind. To me DR stopped being a real issue with the 5D4. It was so stupid they used old sensor tech for the 6DII, basically same as 5D3. After DxO fixed up their results for the 1DXIII it is a much better sensor than the 1DXII and this augers very well for the R5. Now of course the Sony fanboys will instead focus on bashing Canon for overheating issues in video rather than DR
I'm definitely looking forward to that extra stop for the shadows – not so much for lifting further than I have been, but for having better color/contrast/low-noise in the shadows when I do. If they simply improve that a little, I'll be very happy.
and select a7riv 61mpx vs a7rII 42mpx and 50mm ZA 1.4 you see much higher effective resolution 56mpx vs 41mpx. Effectively creating the ability to print 15% bigger with same quality.
similarly 33effective mpx vs 26 for 16-35 f4 a7riv vs a7rii [13% gain on print size]
vs the theoretical possible gain of ~square route of 61/44 = ~20%
This confirms that mpx matters for good lens without AA filter. Even for optically limited lens.
And thats without blurring the pixels of 42 vs 61 unblurred.
Increasing sensor resolution never leaves you worse off. Total system resolution is approximated by the formula
1/Rtot = 1/Rlens + 1/Rsensor
or Rtot = Rlens * Rsensor /(Rlens + Rsensor)
Let's say Rlens = 30MP, Rsensor = 30MP, then Rtot = 15MP. Now put Rlens =30 and Rsensor = 45MP, then Rtot = 18MP and if Rsensor = 61MP, Rtot = 20.1
So total resolution alwasy increases even if the lens is holding you back, If you can also fit a better lens so that say Rlens = 50MP and Rsensor = 45MP, Rtot = 23.7MP, which is nearly 6MP better than when Rlens = 30MP. So while better glass will help, even older lenses will do better on a higher MP sensor and of course the reverse applies.
p.4 #16 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons
molson wrote:
Pretty much narrows your choices down to Fuji or Panasonic S, then...
Yes, it's one of those things that once you get used to, it's hard to give up. I make do without a tilt screen at all on the Leica Q, but I have less patience for it every day it feels like. I do have the X100V that only tilts one way, but that's kind of a bonus for that little camera – and certainly having any tilt is better than not having tilt.
p.4 #17 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons
rscheffler wrote:
If you want some numbers, watch the following video presentation by Peter Karbe, Leica's chief lens designer. Specifically at around 1:17:00 (one hour, 17 minutes). He talks briefly, with numbers, about determining when a lens or the sensor limits the other. Basically, if the lens is less than 50% MTF at half the sensor's Nyquist frequency, then the lens is the limit. If it's higher, then the sensor is the limit.
The definition of 50% MTF for limiting resolution is problematic to say the least. It does not quantify the actual amount of detail seen.
One one hand when we talk about resolution, we also need to specify the contrast, otherwise resolution is just an arbitrary number. But the aggregated definition of system resolution of lens and sensor is also an arbitrary number, because strictly we also need to account for noise. As long as we can see detail above noise, after sharpening, we have resolution in the simple sense of the term. And with use cases where we typically can maximize light and minimize noise, the sensor is the limiting factor for much lower MTF than 50%
p.4 #18 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons
Chimping wrote:
I have a really good relationship with TCS, and when I knew the camera was coming I asked them to put my name down way before pre orders started. On preorder day TCS called me and said that they’re requiring a deposit - 10% of the value of the camera. I was happy to do that.
Thanks - I will put my name and my 10% down today. Last night I debated just buying a A7Riv to myself and concluded I am not ready yet to abandon Canon because of my Ts17, 200-400 and 600. And the new 100-500, 800/f11 and animal eye tracking suggest canon has seen the light. I am just really disappointed by the AA thing - which suggests emphasis on video vs stills.
p.4 #19 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons
Scott Stoness wrote:
Thanks - I will put my name and my 10% down today. Last night I debated just buying a A7Riv to myself and concluded I am not ready yet to abandon Canon because of my Ts17, 200-400 and 600. And the new 100-500, 800/f11 and animal eye tracking suggest canon has seen the light. I am just really disappointed by the AA thing - which suggests emphasis on video vs stills.
Have you considered the Panasonic S1R? I know it doesn't have PDAF for shooting BIF, but you get the same 45MP but without the blur filter so about 10% better resolution, and you get about the same or better DR as the R5, and it will work just fine with your existing lenses on a Sigma MC-21 adapter. Best of all, there is no selfie-screen - just a two-axis tilting screen.
p.4 #20 · R5 vs 5DSR Landscape and the AA filter - DPR has comparisons
molson wrote:
Have you considered the Panasonic S1R? I know it doesn't have PDAF for shooting BIF, but you get the same 45MP but without the blur filter so about 10% better resolution, and you get about the same or better DR as the R5, and it will work just fine with your existing lenses on a Sigma MC-21 adapter. Best of all, there is no selfie-screen - just a two-axis tilting screen.
I had not considered panasonic.
But a quick look:
Adapters plus
1020 grams S1R (no AA) vs 750 grams R5 (AA) vs 650 grams A7RIV (No AA)
5dsr is better than that for me at 51mpx and no adapter
A7RIV is better than both but sony/adapter/poor weather performance... for 10% resolution gain -- on the fence
So for me its either wait for R5SR, buy A7RIV, or get the R5 and R5SR later.
