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Archive 2020 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth

  
 
alundeb
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p.3 #1 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth




InnomnateViem wrote:
an assumption?

maybe that's the problem. i'm an electronic engineer and SIL. but that isn't relevant.

you have qualified my assumption.

we are talking apples and oranges. analog signal interfaces to image sensors, is not the same topic as the sensor's Radiometric Resolution.

thank you.....

try me i'm all ears. and you can write it from the assumed skill set, engineer to engineer. no need for you to break it down to the level of joe six pack.

If so, then you wouldn't need to ask. The information relevant has been provided throughout the discussion.



Jun 30, 2020 at 04:02 PM
InnomnateViem
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p.3 #2 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth


spec·u·late (spĕk′yə-lāt′
v. spec·u·lat·ed, spec·u·lat·ing, spec·u·lates
v.intr.
1. To engage in a course of reasoning often based on inconclusive evidence; conjecture or theorize.
2. To engage in the buying or selling of a commodity with an element of risk on the chance of profit.
v.tr.
To assume to be true without conclusive evidence: speculated that high cholesterol was a contributing factor to the patient's health problems.

you need to get a better dictionary.



Jun 30, 2020 at 04:15 PM
moondigger
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p.3 #3 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth


InnomnateViem -- The following explanation is an oversimplification, but maybe it will help.

The brightness range is the same no matter how many bits are being used to capture the data. If you used (for example) 4 bits per channel, you would only be able to encode 16 levels of brightness, from completely dark to fully bright. Going to 5 bits per channel would allow you to encode 32 levels of brightness, covering the same range but with smaller increments. 6 bits gives 64 brightness levels, 7 gives 128 brightness levels, and 8 bits per channel gives 256 brightness levels for each channel.

Note too how binary values are actually recorded in this example using 8-bit values:

11111111

From LEFT to RIGHT, the place values are 2^7 (128), 2^6 (64), 2^5 (32), 2^4 (16), 2^3 (8), 2^2 (4), 2^1 (2), and 2^0 (1). So 11111111 would be 128+62+32+16+8+4+2+1, or 255 (fully bright). 00000000 would be 0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0, or 0 (fully dark). 00101101 would be 0+0+32+0+8+4+0+1, which equals 45. Here's a table showing a few more:

00010100 (20)
01000000 (64)
10000000 (128)
10010110 (150)
11000111 (199)
11100001 (225)

Alright, so it should be evident that the first bit on the left is the MOST significant, because it represents a value of 2^7, which is equal to 128. Therefore this bit encodes half of the entire range of brightness, and is equal in value to all of the remaining bits combined. The second bit is the second most significant, since it encodes 2^6, or 64. Following this all the way through, we see that the last bit encodes 2^0, which is 1 -- which in this 8-bit encoding scheme, records only 1/256th of the brightness range. It is the LEAST significant bit, because its value affects the total value by an almost imperceptible amount.

Now consider what happens if we use a 10-bit encoding scheme instead:

1001011100
(=604)

Instead of that first digit on the left being worth 2^7, as in the 8-bit example, it's worth 2^9 (512) in this example. But what happens to the bit all the way on the right end? Instead of the last bit recording 1/256 of the total brightness level, it encodes only 1/1024th of the total brightness level. It's not just the least significant bit -- it's 4X less significant than the last bit in the 8-bit example.

The same thing happens when you go to a 12 bit scheme. Instead of the last digit being worth 1/256 or 1/1024 of the brightness range, it's only worth 1/4096. The least significant bits are getting less and less significant as we go.

Now consider a 14 bit encoding scheme. That last bit on the right is being used (or attempting to be used) to encode a brightness level that is only 1/16,384 of the full brightness range. We're probably running into limitations in the granularity that the sensor can record due to electromagnetic interference, heat, etc.

At some point along the way, the differences in brightness being encoded are so small that other effects can interfere with a true reading. When alundeb says going from 14 bits to 16 bits is pointless because the last two bits would just be filled with noise, it means that the increments of brightness being encoded by the 14th bit is already so tiny that smaller divisions are more likely to encode variations due to noise than real differences in brightness.

For what it's worth, it has been repeatedly demonstrated that human beings cannot distinguish colors that differ by only one bit in a 24 bit image (3 channels x 8 bits). So for example, the RGB color 184,102,27 is indistinguishable from 184,102,28. That's part of the reason why some printers don't accept 16 bit data, and even if they do, many of them simply truncate to 8 bits/channel anyway. If you have a printer that shows differences in output depending on whether you feed it 8 bit or 16 bit data, then something weird is going on there, or the algorithm being used is interpreting or manipulating the data in some strange way that makes the images visibly different. They shouldn't be visibly different.



Jun 30, 2020 at 04:30 PM
InnomnateViem
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p.3 #4 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth


i have a Canon Pro 4000 44" printer that has 16 bit RAW workflow. i have seen the difference in colour gradients between an 8 bit file and a 16 bit file in print.


Jun 30, 2020 at 04:54 PM
moondigger
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p.3 #5 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth


I have a Canon Pro-1000 — the same printhead and inks as yours. I’m not saying that a 16 bit workflow won’t show visible differences. I have said the opposite repeatedly on this thread — that the value of 10, 12, or 14 bit capture comes in when you’re doing various transformations on the image, to avoid visual artifacts that can happen when 8-bit/channel images are manipulated.

Once the image manipulation is complete, there is no difference in output no matter whether you send 8 bit or 16 bit data to the printer. Because a printhead spraying little colored dots of ink on paper cannot deliver even as much accuracy or subtle color variations as your monitor — which is probably an 8- or 10-bit per channel device itself.



Jun 30, 2020 at 05:04 PM
InnomnateViem
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p.3 #6 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth


my monitor is 10 bit BenQ SW2700PT 2K 27".

our Pro 1000 and 4000 actual print in CMYK not RGB.

i appreciate your input and comments.

my problem i am a damned electronic engineer. and we thrive on specs.

my theory, if i tighten the specs on the front end (to a point of diminishing returns). i can get better results on the back end, printing. i may have to settle on the Ra for my imaging and printing applications. that is unless Canon comes out with an EOS R5a with a Radiometric Resolution bit depth of 14 bits, lol.

i'm off to drink some Stella Artois and i'll drink one for you, too, moondigger. good day sir....

Edited on Jun 30, 2020 at 05:40 PM · View previous versions



Jun 30, 2020 at 05:30 PM
moondigger
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p.3 #7 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth


Our printers print in CMYK, but with enhanced inks including red, blue, 'photo' cyan, 'photo' magenta, two different greys and two different black inks with different reflective properties. The printer driver is doing some heavy-duty translation and interpolation of the data...


Jun 30, 2020 at 05:39 PM
InnomnateViem
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p.3 #8 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth


you got that right moondigger..... that is one of the primary reasons i work in an all Canon 16 bit RAW work flow with the printer managing the colours. even though i don't particularly like Print Studio Pro. it is a PITA and has its' short comings but i get outstanding results on paper.

i have a suspicion that Canon has some hooks in their 16 bit RAW printer SW. very similar to DPP their RAW image converter. and Canon's SW is the only SW that can utilize those hooks.



Jun 30, 2020 at 05:48 PM
AJSJones
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p.3 #9 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth


InnomnateViem wrote:
spec·u·late (spĕk′yə-lāt′
v. spec·u·lat·ed, spec·u·lat·ing, spec·u·lates
v.intr.
1. To engage in a course of reasoning often based on inconclusive evidence; conjecture or theorize.
2. To engage in the buying or selling of a commodity with an element of risk on the chance of profit.
v.tr.
To assume to be true without conclusive evidence: speculated that high cholesterol was a contributing factor to the patient's health problems.

you need to get a better dictionary.
I am very familiar with many English dictionaries, thank you very mcuh, and that definition is not correct
OK - it's not that often that a non-native speaker (incorrectly) attempts to correct a native speaker, but you still have not understood the difference between speculate and assume.
One more time speculate is a different word and has a different meaning than assume. In short, speculate is to suggest/propose as a possibility without complete information, while assume is to believe without complete information. You see the difference?

Here's another comparison, this time from Random House. I can keep them comning, if you need

as•sume /əˈsum/ v. [~ + object], -sumed, -sum•ing. to take for granted without proof: to assume that everyone wants peace.

spec•u•late /ˈspɛkyəˌleɪt/ v., -lat•ed, -lat•ing. to consider or think curiously about (something);



Jun 30, 2020 at 07:30 PM
InnomnateViem
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p.3 #10 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth


both of your conditions or meanings of the words are being represented in the commentary in this thread.

however, to appease you, i henceforth will use the term conjecture along with assume.

i didn't realize that fm had a vernacular patrol. i will have to be more aware of colloquialism. so that i won't offend the vernacular patrol. i will pay closer attention to diction.

additionally this is a helluva assumption, "it's not that often that a non-native speaker (incorrectly) attempts to correct a native speaker, but you still have not understood the difference between speculate and assume."

really?

does a majority of americans think this way, or are you an aberration or a deviation? if so, one can understand why they are protesting in the streets over there.

i worked at Hewlett Packard in Santa Rosa as a consult back in the day. HP was still the instruments division before they became Agilent Technologies. i have good friends in Petaluma.

i can see the attitude been there seen that in Sonoma County.....



Jun 30, 2020 at 08:38 PM
AJSJones
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p.3 #11 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth


InnomnateViem wrote:
both of your conditions or meanings of the words are being represented in the commentary in this thread.

however, to appease you, i henceforth will use the term conjecture along with assume.

i didn't realize that fm had a vernacular patrol. i will have to be more aware of colloquialism. so that i won't offend the vernacular patrol. i will pay closer attention to diction.

additionally this is a helluva assumption, "it's not that often that a non-native speaker (incorrectly) attempts to correct a native speaker, but you still have not understood the difference between speculate and assume."

really?

does a majority
...Show more
Not an aberration or deviation, just someone who is particular about words - the way you seem to be particular about people providing "proof" for a "speculation". Conjecture is much closer to speculation than assume is. Happy you enjoyed Sonoma county.



Jun 30, 2020 at 11:26 PM
sirimiri
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p.3 #12 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth


Alas, thus hath become FM.


Jul 01, 2020 at 12:24 AM
InnomnateViem
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p.3 #13 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth


loved the big trees, the Rusian River, good hunting, the vineyards, wildlife, the women.....

even got lost one night damned near hit a deer on the road to Guerneville. looked up and the sky was gone. i had driven smack dead in the middle of a redwood forest. never saw trees that big before. hmmm, now that i think of it you act like you from Guerneville? lol.....

Edited on Jul 01, 2020 at 03:39 AM · View previous versions



Jul 01, 2020 at 02:08 AM
alundeb
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p.3 #14 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth


InnomnateViem wrote:
you got that right moondigger..... that is one of the primary reasons i work in an all Canon 16 bit RAW work flow with the printer managing the colours. even though i don't particularly like Print Studio Pro. it is a PITA and has its' short comings but i get outstanding results on paper.

i have a suspicion that Canon has some hooks in their 16 bit RAW printer SW. very similar to DPP their RAW image converter. and Canon's SW is the only SW that can utilize those hooks.


It still stands that most (if not all) of the difference you see between 8 bits and 16 bits on the output side, comes from the first bits you gain. It should be possible with some software to truncate your 16 bits files til 10 effective bits, and I assume that you would not see the difference between the prints made from 10 bits data sent as 16 bits files to the printer driver, and 16 bits data sent as 16 bits files.

Regarding attitude. Things have been explained here under assumption that the reader has got the basic concepts about digital signal representation. Then you, out of the blue, suggest that I only talk buzz. That is actually quite provocative, and tells me that your knowledge is shallow. Look up Dunning-Kruger. Then, you suggest that I don't know what I am talking about since I have worked in the analog domain, and this is digital. Nothing could be further from the truth in all respects. First, I have not only designed the analog hardware, but also the analog to digital conversion, and the preprocessing of the signals coming straight out of the AD converters. It is the knowledge of what happens in the analog domain that is the basis for what precision is needed in the digital domain. The quantization noise needs to be kept a certain level below other noise sources, but more than that would only be a waste.




Jul 01, 2020 at 02:19 AM
Peter Figen
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p.3 #15 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth


"our Pro 1000 and 4000 actual print in CMYK not RGB. "

Sure, it uses CMYK plus whatever light versions and multiple blacks/grays, but unless you're using a true CMYK RIP, you only send RGB data to the printers so anytime you are printing through the standard print drivers from Canon/HP/Epson, etc., you treat the printer as if it really was an RGB device. The driver is what does the actual color space conversion that you have no control over and even if you do send CMYK data to the printer the driver immediately converts that back to some form of RGB and then again with the internal conversion. Of course there are true CMYK+ raster image processors out there but very few individual consumers are using them and even ImagePrint, which is likely the most popular non manufacturer driver is still an RGB driver.



Jul 01, 2020 at 02:52 AM
Jesse Evans
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p.3 #16 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth




Peter Figen wrote:
"our Pro 1000 and 4000 actual print in CMYK not RGB. "

Sure, it uses CMYK plus whatever light versions and multiple blacks/grays, but unless you're using a true CMYK RIP, you only send RGB data to the printers so anytime you are printing through the standard print drivers from Canon/HP/Epson, etc., you treat the printer as if it really was an RGB device. The driver is what does the actual color space conversion that you have no control over and even if you do send CMYK data to the printer the driver immediately converts that back to some form
...Show more

Do you have a source for this? I’m interested.



Jul 01, 2020 at 03:00 AM
InnomnateViem
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p.3 #17 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth


a supposition?

Then you, out of the blue, suggest that I only talk buzz

no i did not suggest that. i said, 'we are talking apples and oranges' (which implies 2 different topics). i used the misspelled word buss (data bus) not buzz. even i am not perfect. lol.....

i will overlook your Ad homeniem comments. they are not worth a response.



Jul 01, 2020 at 03:10 AM
alundeb
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p.3 #18 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth


InnomnateViem wrote:
a supposition?

no i did not suggest that. i said, 'we are talking apples and oranges' (which implies 2 different topics). i used the misspelled word buss (data bus) not buzz. even i am not perfect. lol.....

i will overlook your Ad homeniem comments. they are not worth a response.


Apologies for misreading your statement.

I cannot qualify your assumption. I was talking about radiometric resolution, with the measured value represented as a digital number, and the implcations bit depth in that number has on the resolution. I was not talking about data bus.


Edited on Jul 01, 2020 at 06:33 AM · View previous versions



Jul 01, 2020 at 06:21 AM
alundeb
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p.3 #19 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth


InnomnateViem wrote:
i will overlook your Ad homeniem comments. they are not worth a response.


That is not overlooking it, but a passive-aggressive response.



Jul 01, 2020 at 06:28 AM
AJSJones
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p.3 #20 · EOS R5 RAW bit depth


InnomnateViem wrote:
, now that i think of it you act like you from Guerneville? lol.....
Is that an assumption or a speculation ? All the people I know from Guerneville would know the difference, so I'll take that as an endorsement.




Jul 01, 2020 at 09:45 AM
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