My wife uses the EM-1 II and EM-1X and has as many keepers as I do with the D850 and previously with the D500. She has had to find tutorials and guidance on the internet to get the best camera settings and I have had to do the same with the D850. You cannot point and shoot with any of these cameras in BIF situations.
One aspect that is seldom mentioned is that with the mirrorless camera and lens there is no need to perform an autofocus fine tune with every lens, teleconverter combination, and camera that is used. With a new 70-200mm lens for example I need to do the AF fine tune with the bare lens, again with the 1.4x teleconverter, yet again with the 2x teleconverter, and repeat these 3 tests with my other camera. When I put the Olympus 300mm f/4 on the EM-1 I got super sharp images of small subjects at a distance of 10 feet with no need to perform the AF fine tune adjustment as with my Nikon gear.
The D500 provides a much narrower view angle with Nikon telephoto lenses than you get with the Olympus camera. It is why I now shoot with two D850 full frame cameras. I sold the 200-500mm as on the D500 it became a 300-750mm in terms of view angles and not wide enough in many situations.
For a Nikon camera for BIF your best bets are with the D500 and the D850. The D780 has the older generation of autofocus that was introduced in 2007 with the D3 camera.
I've owned/used the D500 and D850 for years now. My work is all of nature, and for past years now, specializing in a life history.
I do like the D500.
But I think there are three reasons I favor the D850:
1. If I am close to the subject, I want as many of those 40+ megapixels as I can place on it.
2. For me, it is about detail and the quality of the file. Not everyone sees the same: It seems to my brain/eyes that D850 files are more exciting than my D500 files. But oddly, it may be my old D610 that captures the most beautiful files of these three DSLR’s. Yes, this might be bias on my part.
I guess it is the same as me seeing that many of the files I see from other’s Z cameras are more exciting than those from my DSLR’s.
In the end, quality-of-light is king.
3. I can crop a D850 file (to get effectively closer), but when shooting my D500’s narrower field of view, I almost never can quickly back away from an animal I find myself too close to.
Next year I might favor my D500 over my D850, but I doubt it.
As far as D500 reach goes, I get the same effective reach by cropping a D850 file. I never allow “atmospherics” to become a factor in my shooting.
MRomine wrote:
Can you provide documentation on this statement? Do you know where I can find that? I would be really surprised if that is true.
It's in the Tech Specs (D780 brochure, e-manual etc on Nikon Download site) To summarize posts above, I have been shooting a D780 over the past couple of weeks in tandem with D850.
1. The core core AFC in the D780 uses Advanced Multi-CAM 3500FXII [also D750, D7500] that differs slightly from the D4.
2. The AFC algorithms are D5, but use Nikon's latest EXPEED6 main processor.
3. All 3 modes ie AFC, AFP, AFS in Lview are practicably no different to the Z6 (not surprising as it's the same sensor, apparently).
4. In practice the main differences using the D780 are (a) smaller area of OVF coverage in sensor window: smaller than the D850, and (b) haptics lack the Custom options to map AF-ON+AF-Mode to Fn or Pv etc.
4b is the major showstopper for wildlife, so hopefully Nikon prioritize Firmware fixes for the D780. Until then, the D500 or a Used D850 are better value for action UNLESS you need Silent-Shooting and/or the IQ advantages in low light, where the D780 is excellent up to ISO 12800.
I am big fan of Petr and have not come across any photographer online that has so much art in their bird photography. Having said that, if you look at his portfolio, virtually there are no bird in flight photographs. That's not to say he or Olympus can't do it and this may be just his style of photography where he is not much into BiF.
I also didn't get how D500 provides narrower field of view against Olympus. If I mount 300mm on each, D500 would be 450mm FF FoV vs 600mm on EM1X. Am I missing something?
About images itself, as you rightly said once focused, its easier to get sharper images on Olympus which is my experience as well. This could be because of combination of lens quality, IBIS and on sensor PDAF (so better accuracy). In general out of the box even raw images are sharper from Olympus.
It could be buyers remorse but I started wondering if should have instead gone with D500, hence the thread. And I am unable to decide between two for a while and in fact just found out that O have some past threads as well on the same topic
elkhornsun wrote:
My wife uses the EM-1 II and EM-1X and has as many keepers as I do with the D850 and previously with the D500. She has had to find tutorials and guidance on the internet to get the best camera settings and I have had to do the same with the D850. You cannot point and shoot with any of these cameras in BIF situations.
One aspect that is seldom mentioned is that with the mirrorless camera and lens there is no need to perform an autofocus fine tune with every lens, teleconverter combination, and camera that is used. With a new 70-200mm lens for example I need to do the AF fine tune with the bare lens, again with the 1.4x teleconverter, yet again with the 2x teleconverter, and repeat these 3 tests with my other camera. When I put the Olympus 300mm f/4 on the EM-1 I got super sharp images of small subjects at a distance of 10 feet with no need to perform the AF fine tune adjustment as with my Nikon gear.
The D500 provides a much narrower view angle with Nikon telephoto lenses than you get with the Olympus camera. It is why I now shoot with two D850 full frame cameras. I sold the 200-500mm as on the D500 it became a 300-750mm in terms of view angles and not wide enough in many situations.
For a Nikon camera for BIF your best bets are with the D500 and the D850. The D780 has the older generation of autofocus that was introduced in 2007 with the D3 camera. ...Show more →
The D780 has "Advanced Multi-CAM 3500 II" AF sensor module, which is the third generation of the 3500-series modules. The original was introduced in 2007, the "Advanced" in 2012, and the "Advanced II" in 2014. However, Nikon note that the D780 received new AF algorithms adapted from the D5 and there is improved AF fine-tuning options that go even beyond D5. So no, it's not the 2007 AF from the D3. It's a 2014 module with the latest algorithms and expeed processor. The 2016 AF sensor module (Multi-CAM 20k) and the 2020 module (Multi-CAM 37k) have more cross-type points although when using an f/5.6 lens, such as the 500 PF, only the central area sensors act as cross-type points (with faster lenses you get more coverage). The D780 did not incorporate one of these new modules, likely to keep the body size small and possibly to maintain a difference in performance to the top models of the lineup.
MRomine wrote:
Can you provide documentation on this statement? Do you know where I can find that? I would be really surprised if that is true.
ilkka_nissila wrote:
The D780 has "Advanced Multi-CAM 3500 II" AF sensor module, which is the third generation of the 3500-series modules. The original was introduced in 2007, the "Advanced" in 2012, and the "Advanced II" in 2014. However, Nikon note that the D780 received new AF algorithms adapted from the D5 and there is improved AF fine-tuning options that go even beyond D5. So no, it's not the 2007 AF from the D3. It's a 2014 module with the latest algorithms and expeed processor. The 2016 AF sensor module (Multi-CAM 20k) and the 2020 module (Multi-CAM 37k) have more cross-type points although when using an f/5.6 lens, such as the 500 PF, only the central area sensors act as cross-type points (with faster lenses you get more coverage). The D780 did not incorporate one of these new modules, likely to keep the body size small and possibly to maintain a difference in performance to the top models of the lineup....Show more →
Thanks for sharing, I never would have been able to quote all that info. I do know though actual heavy use of several Nikon models from 2008 to recent times that the focus system had significantly improved. Thus concluding that the focus module of the D780 could not still be the one that was first put into he D700/D3.
MRomine wrote:
Can you provide documentation on this statement? Do you know where I can find that? I would be really surprised if that is true.
Check the autofocus system specifications for the D3/D4/D700/D750//D780 cameras which is found in the user guides and in the various product brochures.
What changed with the D500 and D5 was that a new autofocus system with more cross AF sensors and also a dedicated autofocus processor was introduced. I used Group mode on my D750 and it did not perform well at all. On my D500 Group mode was terrific and even with fast moving hummers my in focus rate was 99%.
The D6 more than doubled the number of autofocus cross sensors (can focus on line of horizontal AND vertical contrast) with its new Multi-Cam 37K autofocus system.
I had hoped that the new D780 would get the AF system found in the D500 but Nikon decided not to do this. So for me the D850 became the only choice as I did not want to have the far lower resolution of the D5 and now the D6 sensor.
MRomine wrote:
Can you provide documentation on this statement? Do you know where I can find that? I would be really surprised if that is true.
Check the autofocus system specifications for the D3/D4/D700/D750//D780 cameras which is found in the user guides and in the various product brochures.
What changed with the D500 and D5 was that a new autofocus system with more cross AF sensors and also a dedicated autofocus processor was introduced. I used Group mode on my D750 and it did not perform well at all. On my D500 Group mode was terrific and even with fast moving hummers my in focus rate was 99%.
The D6 more than doubled the number of autofocus cross sensors (can focus on line of horizontal AND vertical contrast) with its new Multi-Cam 37K autofocus system. It also provides 17 ways to use Group mode for autofocus. All this takes more sophisticated sensors and autofocus processor.
I had hoped that the new D780 would get the AF system found in the D500 with the dedicated autofocus processor, but Nikon decided not to do this. So for me the D850 became the only choice as I did not want to have the far lower resolution of the D5 and now the D6 sensor.
The D750 is an excellent camera but I do not view the D780 as anything more than a token upgrade and given the choice of the two cameras I would not hesitate to pick the D750 that has the built-in Commander flash for use as a standard flash or to wirelessly trigger a off the camera flash. Removing the Commander Flash with the D780 and providing nothing instead was unfortunate.
The following are copied and pasted from NiikonUsa technical specs for each DSLR you are referring to:
D850: Nikon Advanced Multi-CAM 20K autofocus sensor module with TTL phase detection and fine-tuning, and 153 focus points (including 99 cross-type sensors and 15 sensors that support f/8), of which 55 (35 cross-type sensors and 9 f/8 sensors) are available for selection
D500: Nikon Advanced Multi-CAM 20K autofocus sensor module with TTL phase detection and fine-tuning, and 153 focus points (including 99 cross-type sensors and 15 sensors that support f/8), of which 55 (35 cross-type sensors and 9 f/8 sensors) are available for selection
D6: Viewfinder photography: TTL phase-detection; 105 focus points, all of which are cross-type sensors and 15 of which support f/8; detection performed by Multi-CAM 37K autofocus sensor module; autofocus fine-tuning supportedLive view: Contrast-detect AF available at all points in frame; focus point selected by camera when face detection or subject-tracking is used
D780: Viewfinder photography: TTL phase detection performed using Advanced Multi-CAM 3500 II autofocus sensor module with support for 51 focus points (including 15 cross-type sensors; f/8 supported by 11 sensors); autofocus fine-tuning supported. Live view: Hybrid phase-detection/contrast-detect AF performed by image sensor
elkhornsun wrote:
Check the autofocus system specifications for the D3/D4/D700/D750//D780 cameras which is found in the user guides and in the various product brochures.
What changed with the D500 and D5 was that a new autofocus system with more cross AF sensors and also a dedicated autofocus processor was introduced. I used Group mode on my D750 and it did not perform well at all. On my D500 Group mode was terrific and even with fast moving hummers my in focus rate was 99%.
The D6 more than doubled the number of autofocus cross sensors (can focus on line of horizontal AND vertical contrast) with its new Multi-Cam 37K autofocus system.
I had hoped that the new D780 would get the AF system found in the D500 but Nikon decided not to do this. So for me the D850 became the only choice as I did not want to have the far lower resolution of the D5 and now the D6 sensor. ...Show more →
I was asking you to prove or back up your statement, therefore I'm not going to do your research for you. If you can't back up your statement, then is it true?
All I know is that there have been significant improvement in the Nikon AF system since the D700/D3. I shot weddings with two D700 and two D3, then moved to the D3s. Very nice AF improvements especially in low light situations. For a long time the D3s was considered by many to be the AF king in low light. Then I moved to the D4 which was an improvement over the D3s but not as significant a jump as the D3s over the D700/D3 AF system. Then I moved to the D750 and that was another big jump over the D4 in AF speed and accuracy in low light situations where you are shooting at ISOs over 2000. I have not owned either the D5 or D6 but from everything that I have been told by owners is that there have been more improvements.
elkhornsun wrote:
Check the autofocus system specifications for the D3/D4/D700/D750//D780 cameras which is found in the user guides and in the various product brochures.
What changed with the D500 and D5 was that a new autofocus system with more cross AF sensors and also a dedicated autofocus processor was introduced. I used Group mode on my D750 and it did not perform well at all. On my D500 Group mode was terrific and even with fast moving hummers my in focus rate was 99%.
The D6 more than doubled the number of autofocus cross sensors (can focus on line of horizontal AND vertical contrast) with its new Multi-Cam 37K autofocus system. It also provides 17 ways to use Group mode for autofocus. All this takes more sophisticated sensors and autofocus processor.
I had hoped that the new D780 would get the AF system found in the D500 with the dedicated autofocus processor, but Nikon decided not to do this. So for me the D850 became the only choice as I did not want to have the far lower resolution of the D5 and now the D6 sensor.
The D750 is an excellent camera but I do not view the D780 as anything more than a token upgrade and given the choice of the two cameras I would not hesitate to pick the D750 that has the built-in Commander flash for use as a standard flash or to wirelessly trigger a off the camera flash. Removing the Commander Flash with the D780 and providing nothing instead was unfortunate. ...Show more →
You are absolutely right on this. I think you have given a very good characterization.
If I may: In terms of AF abilities, the 780 is not close to the D500 or D850.
Note also that the sensors which are outside the central area act as cross-type sensors on the 20k and 37k modules only with certain lenses (all of which are f/4 or faster; some f/4 lenses have more limited selection), all f/5.6 and slower lenses and lenses which are not AF-S or AF-P support only the central area points (35 in D6 and 45 in D5/D850/D500) as cross-type sensors. So, e.g., if using 200-500/5.6 or 500/5.6 PF, the sensors in the Multi-CAM 20k and 37k's extended cross-type sensor area act as linear points only. I am not including all the details (see the camera manuals, there you can find footnotes and exceptions) but the take-home message is really that if you really want the extended cross-type area (which is a significant advantage), you need to use fast lenses. For wildlife telephoto work, this means something like the 180-400/4, 300/4 or the fast supertele primes. (The 200-400/4 does not have this advantage.) Linear points can be used, but the cross-type points tend to be more reliable and can be used successfully in more difficult conditions.
To see progress in the low-light sensitivity, the AF detection threshold has progressed as follows:
D3 (Multi-CAM 3500): -1 EV (ISO 100)
D4 (Advanced Multi-CAM 3500): -2 EV (ISO 100)
D750 (Advanced Multi-CAM 3500 II, also used in the D780): -3 EV (ISO 100)
D5 (Multi-CAM 20k): -4 EV (ISO 100)
D6 (Multi-CAM 37k): -4.5 EV (ISO 100)
so the AF module sensitivity in low light has gradually been improved. As the main processor has become faster, this also has affected how the multipoint AF modes work; in the D3, 3D tracking and auto area AF were pretty hopeless, but they got gradually faster and better.
The D780 does have Nikon's currently best live view AF system, which can be useful in certain situations (e.g. when using the camera in a really low or high position) and if you do wildlife video also then you may find it a significant advantage.
chambeshi wrote:
It's in the Tech Specs (D780 brochure, e-manual etc on Nikon Download site) To summarize posts above, I have been shooting a D780 over the past couple of weeks in tandem with D850.
1. The core core AFC in the D780 uses Advanced Multi-CAM 3500FXII [also D750, D7500] that differs slightly from the D4.
2. The AFC algorithms are D5, but use Nikon's latest EXPEED6 main processor.
3. All 3 modes ie AFC, AFP, AFS in Lview are practicably no different to the Z6 (not surprising as it's the same sensor, apparently).
4. In practice the main differences using the D780 are (a) smaller area of OVF coverage in sensor window: smaller than the D850, and (b) haptics lack the Custom options to map AF-ON+AF-Mode to Fn or Pv etc.
4b is the major showstopper for wildlife, so hopefully Nikon prioritize Firmware fixes for the D780. Until then, the D500 or a Used D850 are better value for action UNLESS you need Silent-Shooting and/or the IQ advantages in low light, where the D780 is excellent up to ISO 12800. ...Show more →
Beyond Webpages / pages of Manuals: Compared to the D850 (and D500), the practicable differences of AF for wildlife photography are: (1) minor disadvantage of smaller AF area in the OVF; (2). D5 AF modes; (3) Vastly improved Liveview AFC.
Compared to the D3 and D750, the AF of the D780 is radically different. Whilst impossible to quantify, this is thanks to the combination of upgraded AF sensor circa 2014, EXPEED6 circa 2018, updated & integrated software etc etc
Experiences using the 70-200 f2.8E FL, 300 f4E PF, 80-400 G and 400 f2.8E FL, and sometimes with TC14 III and TC2 III
MRomine wrote:
I was asking you to prove or back up your statement, therefore I'm not going to do your research for you. If you can't back up your statement, then is it true?
All I know is that there have been significant improvement in the Nikon AF system since the D700/D3. I shot weddings with two D700 and two D3, then moved to the D3s. Very nice AF improvements especially in low light situations. For a long time the D3s was considered by many to be the AF king in low light. Then I moved to the D4 which was an improvement over the D3s but not as significant a jump as the D3s over the D700/D3 AF system. Then I moved to the D750 and that was another big jump over the D4 in AF speed and accuracy in low light situations where you are shooting at ISOs over 2000. I have not owned either the D5 or D6 but from everything that I have been told by owners is that there have been more improvements.
The gains in various generations have largely been in the processing chain. Both the D7500 and the D780 share the D5-derived AF processing algorithms.The differences you saw are mostly in newer, more powerful processors and updated algorithms.
The actual sensor silicon has been essentially the same from the D3 through the D780 (I'm betting there have been process tweaks, but likely nothing more)
There was a change in the optics in front of the sensor with the D750, which is why it has closer-packed AF points than the older CAM3500 bodies (this is shared with the D7500 and D780), the optics change also seems to have improved illumination of the sensor, thus the better low-light sensitivity.
Sagar wrote:
I am big fan of Petr and have not come across any photographer online that has so much art in their bird photography. Having said that, if you look at his portfolio, virtually there are no bird in flight photographs. That's not to say he or Olympus can't do it and this may be just his style of photography where he is not much into BiF.
I also didn't get how D500 provides narrower field of view against Olympus. If I mount 300mm on each, D500 would be 450mm FF FoV vs 600mm on EM1X. Am I missing something?
That's probably a comparison against the 500pf, as it's the closest equivalent to the 300mm Pro in terms of size, cost & reach (the 300PF would compare to the Panny 200/2.8 on m43 most closely). The 500 however is 750mm-e vs 600mm-e for the 300 Pro
mawz wrote:
The actual sensor silicon has been essentially the same from the D3 through the D780 (I'm betting there have been process tweaks, but likely nothing more)
How do you know? Did you take apart the sensor module and check? Can you provide a link or a reference to the original source? Thanks.
Since the AF sensitivity has improved by two stops (and this is extremely noticeable in low light photography also in real world, comparing e.g. D3X and D750) in the 3500 series modules, it is quite possible that some of the improvement is due to optical design of the AF sensor module, but I wouldn't be surprised if they improved the photosensors as well, after all, during the 2007-2014 time there has been a lot of improvement in sensors. However, I never took apart the camera so I don't know what changed. The main thing is that the AF performance of the D750 and D3 in low light is dramatically different even using single point AF.
I think the main drawback of the Advanced 3500 II module is that the area covered by the AF points is slightly smaller, so it is a bit more difficult to make off-centered compositions. The D5 AF system does provide a significant improvement in this when using faster lenses which support the full 99 cross type coverage. I think the main reason the D780 does not feature the D5 AF module is that they already had to make the 3500 series module a bit smaller to fit it in the smaller chassis of the D750, and using the even larger D5 module would have meant growing the body larger.
Thanks to Olympus decision to sell imaging business, I finally ordered 500mm pf. Thank you everyone for your help. I am still bit undecided on camera but would probably go with D500 as I already have D750.
